Papazian is changing my mind about extract brewing

[BendBrewer]

Maybe Coopers or Muntons EXTRACT-ONLY cans are like warming up a can of Ragu, but EXTRACT/GRAIN/HOPS 1 hour boil is not at all like that imho.

True but Extract/Grain/Hops and boil is just like opening a can of Ragu, adding onions, peppers and mushrooms. Finishing it off with herbs and letting it simmer all day.

At the end of the day, you have some great sauce but I for one wouldn't claim to have MADE spaghetti sauce.

 

[rayg]

You can certainly make good extract beer, I'm not arguing that. But I brew good all grain beer, I'm married with two kids and it doesn't cost a lot or take up my whole day. You should really re-look at this.

It doesn't have to take all day, but it certainly takes more time,
effort and equipment than extract brewing. All-grain enthusiasts
are like all do-it-yourselfers. They just don't understand that not
everyone wants to build their own automobile, no matter how much
fun it *can* be.

Ray

 

[HeavyHandedBrewing]

I have been extract brewing for 7 years now. I have been an apartment dweller the whole time as well and moved 4 times. Less equipment is easier (and cheaper) for me. My palate has come a long way since I started brewing extract with specialty grains, and I believe it will grow more once I move to AG. I love brewing beer, and I brew the beer I can, when I can, with what I can. At 27, with a young family, spending a few hundred dollars to move to all grain is not in the picture. Additionally, the time needed, especially until I get the technique down, is not something I will be able to spare currently for AG. I do not know any local home brewers, but I get good markets from a few friends I have turned into 'beer snobs'. The most important thing with home brewing in my simple opinion is that you love the beer you make, and I love the beer I make. I get to brew the beer I want to drink, when I want to drink it, for far less than it cost in the store (if it was not for home brewing, I would be drinking only cheap, generic beer, which cost more than the beer I make anyway.) Some people may disagree, but home brewing is home brewing, and as long as you make beers you love, you have embraced the hobby correctly. You can brew plenty of unique beers with extract (my favorite, which I have never seen in a store is a Chamomile Ale based off the recipe in 'Extreme Brewing' by Sam, owner of DFH) Some others I have made are a 10% ABV honeywiezen, ginger mead, and smoked porter along with some of the more commonly seen, hefewiezen, American wheat, dunklewizen, blond ale, IPA, ect. If you get creative, you can brew almost any beer you want with extract and a little specialty grain. One day I will move to AG and maybe I will feel different, but for now, I will brew extract and love every minute of it!

 

[mdstrobe]

Look at the easy PM or AG stickies. They make it look easy, WHICH IT IS!

Stovetop AG/PM ftw!

 

[Homercidal]

At 27, with a young family, spending a few hundred dollars to move to all grain is not in the picture.

I feel you, but honestly, it doesn't take a few hundred dollars to get into AG. Buy a cheap(but efficient) cooler on sale. Add a filter of some sort (copper, plastic, or braided hose) for a manifold, and a few dollars worth of spigot. MLT done.

The worst part is having to go to full boils, which *could* be done split fashion on the stovetop, but a turkey fryer or electric assisted kettle can do it in one pot pretty cheap and easy. And I would recommend doing full boils if possible for extract as well.

A crusher is not needed as you can buy pre-crushed grain. And actually the MLT is not needed if you wanted to do brew in a bag style. A wort chiller is handy, but not absolutely necessary according to some people. They like to brew "no-chill" where the hot wort is placed in an airtight plastic container to keep the bacteria out and allowed to cool on it's own. I've used a CFC in the kitchen before and had great results. They don't take much room, nor much money to build, and an IC is even cheaper!

All in all, I think I could go AG for less than $150, not including a crusher (although I DID spend less on my crusher because I built it myself using scrap materials at work..)

Tis the Kegging that will break your bank!

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

True but Extract/Grain/Hops and boil is just like opening a can of Ragu, adding onions, peppers and mushrooms. Finishing it off with herbs and letting it simmer all day.

At the end of the day, you have some great sauce but I for one wouldn't claim to have MADE spaghetti sauce.

I realllly disagree with that. Skipping one step (mashing) is not causing me to lose a wink of sleep. My extract is very fresh and there are many many varieties.

If you're starting with tomatoes, then I'm starting with tomato paste. Big deal.

 

[maida7]

I realllly disagree with that. Skipping one step (mashing) is not causing me to lose a wink of sleep. My extract is very fresh and there are many many varieties.

If you're starting with tomatoes, then I'm starting with tomato paste. Big deal.

Right On! This is a hobby. If you enjoy using extract then that's all the reason you need. It doesn't make you any less of a brewer and I have no doubt that extract can make world class beer.

Besides, any monkey can make wort. Real brewers know the secret to making great beer is in the fermentation.

 

[HItransplant]

True but Extract/Grain/Hops and boil is just like opening a can of Ragu, adding onions, peppers and mushrooms. Finishing it off with herbs and letting it simmer all day.

At the end of the day, you have some great sauce but I for one wouldn't claim to have MADE spaghetti sauce.

I dissagree.

now, if you grew your grain, or at least malted it, then you might have an argument....

Im by no means experienced... but i dont think mashing is that difficult, once you zero in on your equipment's idiosyncrasies.

maida7 said it right, proof is in the pu...ah...er... fermentation?

Either way, I think that what makes a brewer is the knowledge and experience they possess, not the particular process they use. Anyone can follow a recipe... but that experience and knowledge allow those little adjustments and thats what I think produces the best product... in beer and in life. Whoa, I think I need a drink.

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

Thumbs up to that!

 

[Detphx]

I'm new to homebrewing and I must say... I love it !! I will stay with the whole extract thing till I'm good enough to move on to AG. I think people needs to stick with what they like, not givin into the pure pressure from others. Just my 2 cents.
"Cheers"

 

[elproducto]

I'm new to homebrewing and I must say... I love it !! I will stay with the whole extract thing till I'm good enough to move on to AG. I think people needs to stick with what they like, not givin into the pure pressure from others. Just my 2 cents.
"Cheers"

I went AG after 4 batches. Don't be afraid, it's really not that difficult. Just do lots of reading! My first AG batch went without a hitch, and I hit all my numbers and got 76% efficiency.

At approx. 65cents/pound of 2-row.. it's awesome.

 

[CrookedTail]

I brew partial mash and extract beers. I haven't moved to all grain mainly because I live in an apartment and space is an issue.

I love both. There is a satisfaction that you get in mashing because you're creating what the extract already gives you. However I also enjoy the simplicity of extract brewing. Building your beer's malt profile with steeping grains requires a great degree of creativity as well. I don't think there is a superior method so long as your fermentation process is sound.

 

[mlanoue]

Mashing is an interesting process, for sure. I was glad to try it a few times--just to see how it all works. The process is really simple when you consider what's going on. However, while I was going through the process last time, I realized that I just didn't enjoy it all that much. I thought to myself, instead of spending an hour waiting for this stuff to convert, I could have just dumped a bag of DME in here and been done with it. I felt kind of like a quitter. But, I'll go back and try again sometime.

Oddly ehough, I get kind of a rush when openeng a can of extract--especially a hopped one like Coopers. Piercing the top of the can, you hear a woosh, then get the blast of malt and hop aroma. No, it's not old world tradition, for sure. More like prohibition-era tradition. But, I still think it's cool.

 

[permo]

Mashing is an interesting process, for sure. I was glad to try it a few times--just to see how it all works. The process is really simple when you consider what's going on. However, while I was going through the process last time, I realized that I just didn't enjoy it all that much. I thought to myself, instead of spending an hour waiting for this stuff to convert, I could have just dumped a bag of DME in here and been done with it. I felt kind of like a quitter. But, I'll go back and try again sometime.

Oddly ehough, I get kind of a rush when openeng a can of extract--especially a hopped one like Coopers. Piercing the top of the can, you hear a woosh, then get the blast of malt and hop aroma. No, it's not old world tradition, for sure. More like prohibition-era tradition. But, I still think it's cool.

Making beer is cool now matter how you do it.

 

[Bobby_M]

Pacific Coast in Oakland.
They run an extract brew system.

Well, to be completely fair about it, they haven't won squat post 2000.

Also, I don't think i'd use one of the oldest homebrewing books (joy of homebrewing) to justify the merits of extract brewing.


I'm not saying extract beers are bad, just arguing against of the arguments for it.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Maybe Coopers or Muntons EXTRACT-ONLY cans are like warming up a can of Ragu, but EXTRACT/GRAIN/HOPS 1 hour boil is not at all like that imho.

EXACTLY.

I did 30 or so EXTRACT PM batches.....



THEN....2 AG batches. Both HUGE successes.

I have done 30 or so PM batches since. AG was fine and educational.

PM is fine for me. My time is worth Alot, and I don't have enough of it.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

All due respect, but you really should come to my house. I brew 5 AG batches in a kitchen with my girl. It takes about 5 hours with cleanup. I aerate it with an egg beater and I boil on the stove. It ain't rocket science.

 

[cheezydemon3]

PLEASE STOP RESPONDING TO MIKE GOTTSCH.

JESUS!!! 5 posts in and you all have corrected him no less than 20 times. LET HIM HIDE HIS HEAD IN PEACE!

I WILL do more AG in the future, but I chose to go back to PM.

BAKING SODA has made all the difference.

 

[PUD]

Just brewed and extract w/ grains and PM last weekend for the first time in a couple of years. Its nice to mix up the process.

 

[mlanoue]

Baking soda? How do you mean?

 

[wyzazz]

Baking soda? How do you mean?

Water Chemistry, Baking Soda adds Sodium & Carbonates. It's like salting the water and raising the PH all at once.

 

[MikeGottsch]

Okay, I admit to having judged hastily. I guess I overstated the "obstacles," based on my lack of knowledge about it. While I doubt I could come to your house, I think if I tried it with someone who is experienced at it, that would get me over the "fear factor" an any potential cons. Thanks for all your comments. Someday I will do all grain.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Okay, I admit to having judged hastily. I guess I overstated the "obstacles," based on my lack of knowledge about it. While I doubt I could come to your house, I think if I tried it with someone who is experienced at it, that would get me over the "fear factor" an any potential cons. Thanks for all your comments. Someday I will do all grain.

Mike, we're all friends here...

I kinda thought you were joking...but my invitation stands: come over my house any brew day (brewing a red this Sunday) and I'll show you a great way to transition from extract to all grain. You're only a 1.5hr ride from me. PM me if interested.

You just have to be careful as you'll normally wade into more than debate on this forum LOL (bottling v kegging, extract v ag, rims v herms, electric v direct fire---can anyone else name a few?)

I have been brewing EXACTLY 11 months (one year anniversary is Thanksgiving 2009) and moved from extract to all grain after only a few batches using mostly gear that I already had around the house. Having done both, I have a strong preference for all grain...but stating the reasons why is likely to start a flame war...so I must keep this to myself.

I made investments where it made sense but I use a old cooler for a mashtun, and I batch sparge. I then split my boil into two 5 G pots, each holding about 3.5 to 4 gallons. These pots are split on the stove and hop additions split accordingly. Chilling is done separately through and IC and both minibatches then meet up again at the primary. Other brewers like Deathbrewer use the BIAB method with much success.

So, no harm no foul...hopefully my response wasn't too harsh...but as you can tell; you certainly got some attention here. Welcome to HBT.

 

[cheezydemon3]

If he looks like his avatar, I'd go.

All grain is great, but for the $ difference, I am proud of my ability to craft FANTASTIC beers with Pale DME and whatever grains I dictate without worrying about efficiency and the extra time.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

If he looks like his avatar, I'd go.

All grain is great, but for the $ difference, I am proud of my ability to craft FANTASTIC beers with Pale DME and whatever grains I dictate without worrying about efficiency and the extra time.

For the record, I look nothing like my avatar...I just can't enough of looking at that picture...I figured you perverts would feel the same way.

 

[specialkaye]

I'm pretty new here but would love to have an experienced brewer invite me over. If not for the learning, but also the company. I know one other "home brewer" and he only does wine.

I don't have a LHBS. There's two brew-on-premises wineries, both an hour to one and a half hours away. One of them sells beer making supplies, but I've never been to either. There's another brew store near where I work once a week, but there attitude was so poor that I won't go there. Time is money and the internet is quick and delivers right to my door.

Would I like to get into all grain? Sure. Eventually. Right now, I'm tickled pink with the extract because I can get good beer. Even at my skill/experience level. I think part of my fun is brewing is like a great big science experiment. And, you can get drunk with the results!

I cracked open my primary last night to rack to a secondary and was delighted with the heady aroma that wafted out. Even flat and warm, the extract cream ale was divine. And, when SWMBO says, "I can see drinking this," and keeps taking the cup out of my hand, I'm okay with what I'm doing. I made it for her. She likes it. I like it. Neither of us care that it wasn't all grain. Hell, I don't grow my own sugar cane, and process the juice, before I make candy either. And, Ragu can make the start of a good sauce.

 

[remilard]

I have a couple of anecdotes.

Jamil Zainesheff spoke at Hoppy Halloween this weekend and mentioned that he had recently made a beer out of hopped extract but otherwise using his typical cold side process. He said the beer was very good and he gave it to people he knew without saying what he did and asked if anything was different or off and people said it was great.

Also Mark Tanner brews extract and twice won High Plains Brewer of the Year and gets beers into the NHC second round every year.

So its not the extracts fault.

I think when people switch to all grain it corresponds with other investments in fermentation management or general increased knowledge and they give the all grain aspect too much credit. People who can make great all grain beer can make great extract beer if they want to, without exception.

I'm planning to brew some extract beers in the next few months. I'll send some to Upper Mississippi Mashout and some to NHC along with some all grain beers. I'll report back on the results. I expect to win with some extract beers and lose with some, just like I do with the all grain beers.

 

[Homercidal]

I think Remilard mostly hit it on the head. I know personally I was making much better beer with AG, but I was (and still am) making changes to my process. In fact, even my extract batches were continuing to improve regularly.

 

[SFsorrow]

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

I see what you did there. And I like it.

 

[Randar]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

This post is ridiculous. 6 hours start to finish for a batch, married with kids, and the cost is not bad if you already have some of the equipment (you need to be able to boil and chill wort either way, so the only thing you're missing is a cooler MT.

 

[cheezydemon3]

GOD DAMMMIT RANDAR!!!!

He has been bashed up one side and kicked down the other, AND he has since manned up and apologized....

Read the thread please and GET OFF MIKE'S BACK!!!!!!!



Sorry, I am just getting tired of seeing that post quoted!

 

[GillandCo]

Apology accepted...Sometimes when I post stuff on this site im wrong, but were all here to learn. Glad to see you reconsidered All Grain and I hope you give it a try someday.

 

[dotnetdotcom]

Clifton, I've been thinking about getting that 33# jug. How long have you kept a jug of that? I don't have room in my fridge and worry about it getting infected.

BTW-I'm local and enjoy going to Listermann's.

 

[Clifton]

dotnet, does your screenname have anything to do with this?
"Homestarrunner.net......it's DOOOT COOOM."
Just made me think of it.
Back to the LME
I bought a jug of Briess Pilsen from Dan on 2/22/10 and used it all up by 9/7/10. I did store it (at least some of the time) in my keg fridge. I purchased another jug from a seperate retailer on 7/16/10. I still have a little over half of it left. Up until about a week ago I've been storing it in my basement on the floor in the closet. I put it in the fridge after I noticed on the package that it was best stored at 5-15 degrees C (41-59 F). The second jug was Munton's and I got it for $55 (maybe because it has a best by date of 12/2010). I didn't do this but I've heard that if you keg you can add some CO2 to the head space of the jug to ward off nasties. Others have advocated pouring a shot of cheap vodka onto the top of the LME. I haven't done that either.

If you buy from Listermann and keep the LME in the original container, use it w/in 6 months, and store it in a cool dark place, you should be fine.

 

[maida7]

morebeer.com has super low prices for LME and you can buy it in smaller sizes.

 

[estoppel]

I pay $6.45/lb of LME.... which is nuts.

 

[maida7]

I pay $6.45/lb of LME.... which is nuts.

Yeah that's very high. Morebeer.com has it for 2.30/lb for any quantity 6lbs or larger. Shipping is free if you spend over 59.00.

 

[remilard]

Yeah that's very high. Morebeer.com has it for 2.30/lb for any quantity 6lbs or larger. Shipping is free if you spend over 59.00.

And morebeer has excellent packaging on LME. I suspect exposure of liquid extract to oxygen is one of the bigger problems in extract brewing. One thing I often recommend to extract brewers having problems (if I don't have their beer or can't ID what is wrong with it with certainty) is to try a batch with dry extract and see if anything changes. Dry extract is very likely to be in good shape and if you ID the liquid extract you are buying as a problem you can start to look for a more reliable source (you could just use dry, but it is a fair bit more expensive).

 

[dotnetdotcom]

dotnet, does your screenname have anything to do with this?
"Homestarrunner.net......it's DOOOT COOOM."
Just made me think of it.

The user name comes from Dr. Evil, but I got it a little wrong. The actual line is "www dot shh dot com dot org". It was just a toss away user name to sign up on other forums, but it was easy to remember so I kept using it.

 

[estoppel]

I'd imagine shipping to the great white north will be cost-prohibitive, not to mention the brokerage charges and sales taxes charged at the border.