Papazian is changing my mind about extract brewing

[Righlander]

So i usually only do extract with specialty grain brewing. i have done a couple partial mash batches too. but for the most part i have only done extract with specialty grains. i have probably done about 25 batches of beer in my whole time brewing. so anyway i was planning on going to all grain brewing in the future. but after reading the complete joy of homebrewing, i'm feeling a lot better about extract brewing. i think i'll stick around a while in the extract with specialty grains world.

 

[chefmike]

If you have a fresh source of extract and concentrate on all the other parts of your process: fermentation temperature and yeast health being major, no worries. And if price is not an issue.

I like trading my effort and time for lower ingredient price.

Good extract and good process can make good beer, for sure.

 

[thataintchicken]

Some of my best beers were extract brews. There is no shame in that.

tips:
fresh extracts are better.
steeping grains = character.

Extract, grains and care = Good Beer.
The brewpub a couple of BART stations away from me have the GABF medals to prove it.

 

[nikkormat]

The brewpub a couple of BART stations away from me have the GABF medals to prove it.

out of curiosity, which brewpub are you referencing?

 

[thataintchicken]

out of curiosity, which brewpub are you referencing?

Pacific Coast in Oakland.
They run an extract brew system.

 

[SourHopHead]

I tossed in 2 extract brew early this year and I was happy with both of them. Love the reaction you get when you tell people it's an extract brew!

 

[GillandCo]

I made a couple good extracts in my day, then jumped on the all grain wagon. my guess is inexperience plays a huge roll in making good extract beer. I want to try a batch that i did in the past but with the knowledge i have now...I'd hope i could make a kick ass batch of extract but you never know. Cheers

 

[humann_brewing]

I have wanted to fit one in for time sake but everytime I get on a brewing website and look at the price of extract, I change my mind. Just can't bring myself to spend $3-4 / pound for extract.

 

[GillandCo]

I have wanted to fit one in for time sake but everytime I get on a brewing website and look at the price of extract, I change my mind. Just can't bring myself to spend $3-4 / pound for extract.

This is my problem...I keep buying bulk sacks of 2-row and its all downhill from there!

 

[Clifton]

I pay $2.12 a pound for Briess. A 33lb jug is $70 from Listermann. Add five dollars worth of grains, yeast, etc and shipping is free east of the Missippi.

 

[mlanoue]

I look at the price of grains vs. extract and I start to make plans to do an all grain batch. Then, I remind myself how the last grains I bought sat in a bin in my basement for months because I couldnt set aside enough time to do a proper brewing job with them. So, i go back and buy extract kits and just rememer I'm still making good beer for a lot less than I'd buy it in a store.

 

[MikeGottsch]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

 

[Pilgarlic]

I respect an extract brewer who respects a grain brewer. And vice versa.

 

[permo]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

I am happily married, have a 6 month old and a 3 year old and brew all grain 5 gallon batches once a week. Grain to fermenter in under 4 hours easily accomplished in my kitchen. I built a mash tun for about 30 bucks and got a 12 gallon pot for $60. My 3 year old actually bugs me to brew beer, she likes stirring the mash and throwing ingredients into the brew kettle. I have saved hundreds and hundreds of dollars purchasing grains vs extract. With hops, yeast, and grains all considered, my average 5 gallon batch is less than $20, and i can brew kolsch or cream ale for about $10 a batch....not to shabby.

The move from all grain to extract is the single biggest improvement I have made in my beers. Switching from extract and dry yeast, to all grain and cultured or liquid yeast really made a huge difference. The ability to control the base malt fermentability and consistency via mash thickness and temp is very important to me. You cant FWH or mash hop an extract beer either.

That all being said, I have made some good extract beers and I do still use extract every week in my starters...but I dump that beer out and keep the yeast



If you buy bulk grains and crush them yourself you can get well under a dollar a pound for base malt. However, I use brewbuilder (www.brewmasterswarehouse.com) and select from ED's huge selection and he ships them all mixed and crushed up for me....$1.15 a pound for basemalt....not bad.

 

[remilard]

-- single people

Nope

-- soon-to-be divorced people

I hope not. My wife brews with me, does that double the chance that I get divorced or should I not assume independence?

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

Nope

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

Okay, you got me.

 

[MrInternet]

You have three issues here:

1. There are few homebrewers that are actually good enough (I'm certainly not) to make "better" beer with AG than extract. If you are currently making better beer with AG than extract, it's probably because going AG has caused you to put more time, effort, and money into your brewing, and you are taking great care to learn as much as possible, and your process has gotten better as a result. I think that's one of the only downsides to starting with extract brewing, bad habits are easier to come by because the process is more forgiving. I guarantee you if Jamil Z made you one of his recipes with extract, you wouldn't know the difference. Process wins every time.

2. You have to figure out what you want out of the hobby... I do AG because, to me, it's a LOT more fun! If what you want out of brewing is to bang out good beer in the shortest amount of time, extract is the way to go. If you want to geek out and experience brewing as a historical, organic, and somewhat messy phenomenon, then you absolutely have to go AG... there's nothing that connects you to all previous fellow brewers like experiencing an AG brew. Something about dumping extract into a pot and stirring it just doesn't give you the same "connection" to the brewing universe, in my mind.

3. Many extract brewers rag on AG brewers because they "waste time" with AG, and many AG brewers rag on extract brewers for "wasting money". Well, unless everyone's time is only worth $5 an hour, we're ALL "wasting" a bit of both every time we brew anyway, aren't we? Find the reason you WANT to brew extract, don't look for reasons to NOT brew AG... if all your reasons for brewing extract are reasons you can't/won't brew AG, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Likewise, if the only reason you're brewing AG is to "save money", you need to sell that B.S. somewhere else... you'll be brewing until Jesus comes back to recoup the money you've spent over and above the extract brewer in equipment and time. Unless you're like your friend here that gets to brew every week, but how many of us get to do that?

I think it just comes down to people not looking at this as some sort of debate that they need to pick a side in. They are both perfectly valid and both equally capable of making world-class beer and brain cell-killing swill. WHY you're doing the one you've chosen will always be more important than the fact THAT you're doing it. At least, that's my $0.02...

 

[Pilgarlic]

I think it just comes down to people not looking at this as some sort of debate that they need to pick a side in.

It always seems to me that those who can't simply embrace one alternative without attacking those who choose the other are trying to convince themselves of something. They only involve others because it's unseemly to argue with oneself.

 

[GillandCo]

It always seems to me that those who can't simply embrace one alternative without attacking those who choose the other are trying to convince themselves of something. They only involve others because it's unseemly to argue with oneself.

Some true words of wisdom...Good looking out.


Here we go AGAIN!

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

As a new brewer who is absorbing every bit of info I can get my hands on, after 10-12 extract-and-grain kits, I dont have any desire to do all grain at this point. Maybe that feeling will change, but I love my beer and how EASY everything is.

Sounds like you can save money doing grain, but in my mind that is after investing in equip and stockpile of different grains, hops, etc...

 

[wildwest450]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen
Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

You need to do some research before posting in generalities. This statement couldn't be more untrue.

 

[GillandCo]

I was first Offended when he stated this...Then noticed he only has 5 posts. No harm no foul...If he wants to be ignorant and state false facts more power to him. I know how my beer taste and also know how my all grain beers have improved over my extracts. Possibly due to Inexperience either way, All Grain works for me and extract for you...In no way are we saying one is better than the other.

So why "generalize" a group and put them into a ridiculous "Falsely" stated List?

I have family in Philly...your making them look bad.

 

[prosper]

I dunno, I find all-grain brewing more fun - less like making kool-aid. And you have greater artistic control.

However, I wouldn't say that all-grain automatically produces 'better' beer (except in some corner cases like wits, which you really can't produce with extracts, or even with mini-mash).

 

[stevedasleeve]

I think it is all about the wanger. If you have a big one you do all grain, if yours is a little on the small side then, well, extract. Of course if you don't have one in the first place then you are likely immune to the discussion. Oh and sometimes you *think* it is big but , you know, it's actually an optical illusion. When I was in high school I witnessed not a few of them types.

I am immune despite my fictitious name. No wanger here and proud of it.

Steve da sleeve = extract & all grain depending of on the day and the time and the inventory

 

[bmason1623]

Personally, I want to master both extract and AG brewing. The more you know and learn the better off you will be, and not just in brewing but everything else in life.

<stepping off of soap box>

 

[hal2814]

Do what makes you happy but I wouldn't make any major decisions based on the all grain section in Joy of Homebrewing. If you are interested in all grain but afraid of how hard or long the process is check out DeathBrewer's stickies. If you're really not that interested, then carry on and best of luck either way.

 

[vicratlhead51]

I think it is all about the wanger. If you have a big one you do all grain, if yours is a little on the small side then, well, extract. Of course if you don't have one in the first place then you are likely immune to the discussion. Oh and sometimes you *think* it is big but , you know, it's actually an optical illusion. When I was in high school I witnessed not a few of them types.

I am immune despite my fictitious name. No wanger here and proud of it.

Steve da sleeve = extract & all grain depending of on the day and the time and the inventory

So do Partial Mashes mean I'm average?

 

[HItransplant]

Personally, I want to master both extract and AG brewing. The more you know and learn the better off you will be, and not just in brewing but everything else in life.

<stepping off of soap box>

thats the one.

I couldnt agree more. Lets spend time learning each others experience, no matter the chosen process; not wasting it on a pointless debate.

Designing Great Beers has a plethora of examples demonstrating both the use of all grain and extract, as well as everything in between, in all of the top AHA and commercial brews around the world.

Mastery of process seems to be the only sure way to make great beer.

Edit: That said, I enjoy the process of making beer, and in much the same way as I prefer manual transmission over automatic, I will pursue AG where ever possible, because I like the complexity and dont mind the extra time.

 

[starrfish]

I do all grains for my session beers and Partials for my higher gravity beers. I've taught a brewer how to do partial mash sessions... he only does partials now, he says it's more fun than a dump and boil. I agree. as for time... yes more but only a few hours for a partial/full same time for both. I usually add 3 hours to an extract and am cutting that down to maybe 2 ( running off to kettle and bringing up to heat on sparge with runnings)

Any way you look at it a brew is a brew... spent many years as an extract brewer... made some mistakes as an all grainer... but RDWHAHB is better than commercial swill!

my 2¢

 

[MikeGottsch]

Well, I guess I stand corrected. After reading several articles about the process, including a recent one in Brew Your Own magazine (with pictures), I did not see how it could be done that quickly and in a kitchen. How can boil full volume in a kitchen? Your response seems too good to be true, and leads me to believe you may know some shortcuts. I would love to know how you do it.

 

[scottland]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

I'm going to disagree on all counts. No offense, but you couldn't be more wrong.


-- It takes me about 4.5 hours to do an all-grain batch. A little less for a small beer, a little more for a high gravity beer. If I start at 7am, i'm done (cleanup included) by noon. And at that point I get on with my day.

-- All grain doesn't cost that much. I use an 8-gallon aluminum pot from walmart that cost $19, and my cooler MLT cost $29 to build. That's $50, and one could argue you need a pot for extract brewing anyway. Nevertheless, my all-grain setup paid for itself in the first 5 batches.

--I brew in my kitchen, and i brew all-grain, full boil batches. I live in a condo with a small apartment-size kitchen. My Electric stove can bring my 8gal aluminum pot to a boil with 7.5gal of wort.

--I'm not single, I live with my girlfriend

--Brewing doesn't affect my relationship, she encourages it.

--I only brew 5 gallons at a time

--I brew all-grain because it's considerably cheaper, I have more control over the brewing process, and I like the beer I brew. Extract can make excellent beer, but it's ridiculous, unfounded claims like yours that scare would-be all-grain brewers away.

My intent here wasn't to steer this thread off course. I've tasted some amazing extract beers, but I found the above claims to be totally unfounded, and felt they needed refuted. Please carry one with your regularly scheduled topic.

 

[Dwain]

I brewed for many years doing extract and partial grain and I agree with some of the other posters, I made some really fine beers/ale. Those brews are why I'm still in the hobby today. Pre-internet days, a little catalog shopping could save you a lot of money on extracts. - Dwain

 

[david_42]

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

Cruel, but funny.

I do extract, PM and AG. Depends on my mood, time, and the recipe. Since I haven't (and won't) buy a mill and I have a major rodent problem, having sacks of grain around isn't an option. The critters chew though plastic bins. Even had mice get into the conditioning cabinet!

 

[motobrewer]

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

completely untrue, married, two kids, my palate sucks.

but I am personally getting sick of the 5 hour brewday. the price of extract is the only thing keeping me from doing a few extract beers a year.

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

Someone mentioned they found it hard to get fresh malt extract and I suppose if you live somewhere rural that could be true. My LHBS gets fresh extract bottled weekly and kits are always freshly put-together. Just thought that was worth mentioning.

Depending on where you shop and what style/how many ingredients are included, extract kits can be as cheap as $18 (Novice Gold Ale at my LHBS with 10% in store discount), as expensive as $60 (some kits I have seen online).

Scottland, thanks for your post, I found it very helpful. I would love to see a pic of your setup. When I picture all-grain I GENERALLY think of 3-bucket setups, pumps to transfer liquid, and pots with built in fittings costing lots of money.

 

[Homercidal]

Nothing wrong with extract if you just want to brew beer real quick. I enjoy the science and art of doing as much as I can. I would love to grow and malt my own grain in addition to growing my hops, but for me that is just the step over the line that I won't cross.

I got into AG just as I was starting to really get a handle on extract brewing. Extract can make some very good beers, but there are a few things to understand if you want to take it to the next level.

AG takes a bit of understanding too, but it's not really "harder" than extract, just more time consuming. I was surprised at how easy my first G brew was.

 

[BendBrewer]

A good analogy is spaghetti sauce. You can make a fantastic sauce by spicing up a jar of Ragu and anyone would be hard pressed to tell the difference in that and one made from scratch.

But if making spaghetti sauce was my hobby I would start with fresh tomatoes just about every time. I wouldn't turn my nose up to anyone's Ragu based sauce but if I am going to claim to MAKE SPAGHETTI SAUCE, I am going to do more than spice up someone elses base.

 

[Righlander]

ok when i started this thread i didnt think it was going to turn in to argument lol. i was simply saying that, although i do plan to move to AG some day. after reading up a bit, i'm going to wait a bit longer before i drop all the cash on an AG kit. it wasnt supposed to be about one being better than another.

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

Maybe Coopers or Muntons EXTRACT-ONLY cans are like warming up a can of Ragu, but EXTRACT/GRAIN/HOPS 1 hour boil is not at all like that imho.

 

[knotquiteawake]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

You guys took this post seriously? I thought it was funny. It all sounded satirical.

 

[Lodovico]

I've been an extract brewer for 7 years and have no plans of changing. I was tempted to try all-grain, but:

-- takes an entire day just to brew one batch

-- costs an arm and a leg for the needed equipment

-- need a special space; cannot do it in the kitchen

Seems to me it's only beneficial for:

-- single people

-- soon-to-be divorced people

-- people who want to brew far more than 5 gallons at a time

-- people who believe their palates are more discriminating that a jeweler's eye and will not settle for being on the slightest side of imperfect

I will politely pile on here. Man, all of these statements are false. You should do some research before you post something like this. It's too bad you have these impressions because all grain can be a lot of fun.

You can certainly make good extract beer, I'm not arguing that. But I brew good all grain beer, I'm married with two kids and it doesn't cost a lot or take up my whole day. You should really re-look at this.

Also, Papazian is great but that book is getting pretty outdated. All grain brewing and the resources available to improve at it have expanded a lot since that was written.