Oxidized beer issues

[vin8n1]

Hey all, I have been having issues with oxidized beer. Like almost every time I brew. And with multiple styles: IPAs, pale ales, and even a Saison. Only one I couldnt tell was a stout. I have been trying to use the best low-oxygen process (that I am able to). Here is a look at my general process post-boil:
Ferment in a plastic bucket with gasket-sealed lid using a three-piece airlock filled with sanitizer. If I dry-hop I either use magnets to drop it in or put it in during active fermentation. I let it ferment for 1-2 weeks (usually only 5-7 days) and then bottle. I have a spigot with bottling wand directly attached with a short piece of tube. I crack the lid and gently fermenter prime (I have started adding some sodium metabisulfite too). Then I fill close to the top and immediately cap with oxygen-absorbing caps. The beer is oxidized within 2-3 weeks after bottling (which is usually how long it takes to condition ).
It is frustrating enough that I am about to quit homebrewing. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Big_D]

Have you tried kegging?

 

[tracer bullet]

I don't bottle but reading around here it seems people will fill the neck with beer foam from the filling process and that seems to help a lot.

There's also a chance it's not oxidized, and that something else is going on that you are thinking to be oxidation. As an FYI, even with the world's best practices, beer simply changes flavor over time. Hoppy beers are never what they are on bottling day. Stouts and porters mellow too. Often this is a good thing.

How much experience do you have overall? Do you have any other homebrewers nearby to share with?

 

[vin8n1]

Have you tried kegging?

I feel like thats a cop-out. Plenty of people make good beer that is bottled. Im scared that I would waste all that money on a kegging setup, only to have the same results (maybe due to some process mistake).

 

[vin8n1]

I don't bottle but reading around here it seems people will fill the neck with beer foam from the filling process and that seems to help a lot.

There's also a chance it's not oxidized, and that something else is going on that you are thinking to be oxidation. As an FYI, even with the world's best practices, beer simply changes flavor over time. Hoppy beers are never what they are on bottling day. Stouts and porters mellow too. Often this is a good thing.

How much experience do you have overall? Do you have any other homebrewers nearby to share with?

Im pretty sure it is oxidation, it seems to match up exactly with everything i have read about it. But you are right, im trying to find other homebrewers/clubs to get feedback from. I have been brewing for ~2 years and made ~7 batches.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Im pretty sure it is oxidation, it seems to match up exactly with everything i have read about it. But you are right, im trying to find other homebrewers/clubs to get feedback from. I have been brewing for ~2 years and made ~7 batches.

Are you brewing all-grain or extract?

I have seen first hand the damage that cold side oxidation has on heavily hopped IPAs. Even for a Pale Ale with "standard hopping rates" I have seen signs of darkening and oxidation (though the impact on aroma and flavor can be subtle). I bottle a number of Belgians (Saisons, Dubbel, Triple, etc.) and I find in those styles that I don't notice oxidation issues. I feel that if you are seeing significant "oxidation" damage in a Saison after 2-3 weeks in the bottle, there is a good chance the issue is something other than oxidation related to bottling.

 

[mashpaddled]

It certainly could be oxidation. It could be a lot of off flavors or problems with your brewing process. Seven batches into brewing isn't a huge amount of experience or data points to draw upon. Without knowing more about the recipe and process from start to finish it's hard to say where you're encountering problems and whether those problems are actually related to oxidation.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Do this experiment the next time you bottle… give a shot of wine preservation gas to the sanitized empty bottles (your choice on how many) before filling and the small head space before you cap, or before you seal the cap let it sit on the bottle and let some of the carbonation escape. Compare these with the usual way you’ve been bottling.

 

[marc1]

Can you describe what happens to the beer such that you know it is oxidation damage?

Are you cold crashing at all?

Are there air bubbles entering the junction of the tubing and spigot/bottle filler? I remember seeing somewhere that bottle fillers can sometimes be air bubbly - maybe try just tubing with a tube clamp to stop flow?

Have you tried filling the bottles almost all the way to the top? Leave a tiny amount of headspace so your bottles don't explode, but people seems to have had good luck with this method.

Also, you could try priming each individual bottle rather than batch priming. A small funnel can help getting dry sugar in the bottles.

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

My process is pretty much the same as yours and I rarely have problems. I suffered one time when the bottling wand broke and I filled the bottles by turning on and off at the spigot and another time when I dry hopped after fermentation had finished. Are you sure your buckets are sealing properly? It might be that they seem to be when under positive pressure during fermentation but after it finishes they could be letting air leak back in.
I personally use plastic containers with a snap ring that clamp the lids closed (shown below), they were a great upgrade from buckets.

 

[vin8n1]

Can you describe what happens to the beer such that you know it is oxidation damage?

Loses hop flavor, sweet cardboard taste; both get progressively worse as time goes on.

Are you cold crashing at all?

Not able to

Are there air bubbles entering the junction of the tubing and spigot/bottle filler? I remember seeing somewhere that bottle fillers can sometimes be air bubbly - maybe try just tubing with a tube clamp to stop flow?

I used to bottle with a siphon, but stopped using because of that reason. I havent seen a difference (there may be one). I dont see any bubbles. Would the tube clamp method create splashing though?

Have you tried filling the bottles almost all the way to the top? Leave a tiny amount of headspace so your bottles don't explode, but people seems to have had good luck with this method.

I do this every time. I have a noticeable difference in the amount of darkening and taste change that I get, but still perceivable.

Also, you could try priming each individual bottle rather than batch priming. A small funnel can help getting dry sugar in the bottles.

I will try this!

 

[vin8n1]

Are you brewing all-grain or extract?

I have seen first hand the damage that cold side oxidation has on heavily hopped IPAs. Even for a Pale Ale with "standard hopping rates" I have seen signs of darkening and oxidation (though the impact on aroma and flavor can be subtle). I bottle a number of Belgians (Saisons, Dubbel, Triple, etc.) and I find in those styles that I don't notice oxidation issues. I feel that if you are seeing significant "oxidation" damage in a Saison after 2-3 weeks in the bottle, there is a good chance the issue is something other than oxidation related to bottling.

I use BIAB now, used extract for the first few brews. Do you have any other ideas of what it could be?

 

[jerrylotto]

I feel like thats a cop-out. Plenty of people make good beer that is bottled. Im scared that I would waste all that money on a kegging setup, only to have the same results (maybe due to some process mistake).

Not a cop-out or waste of money. Closed transfer to a keg is a lot simpler than excluding air when bottling and you can bottle from a keg, either by adding priming sugar to the keg before you purge it of air or by force carbonating.

 

[bwible]

Oxygen gets alot of discussion these days and people are always quick to jump right to that almost immediately for every problem anymore. Its a bigger thing these days and people are more on about it because of NEIPA, which is one of the popular styles now that suffers the most from it.

I still transfer my beers to another carboy for settling - what so many call a “secondary”. I hate that word because everybody knows there is only 1 fermentation. I do not co2 purge anything, I do not use any floating cap or transfer through the out tube or any of that. I just use a racking cane and a hose. I mostly have no issues with oxygen. We did this for years and years. Not every problem is oxygen.

Do not put your mouth on a hose and suck start any syphons. Keep the flowing end of the tube submerged. Don’t splash all over the place.

I remember a thread not long ago people talking about using ascorbic acid in their beer to try to eat up any excess oxygen. See if you can find that or if somebody can post about that.

But make sure it really is oxidation. Do you take gravity readings? Are you pitching enough yeast? If you don’t pitch enough yeast or your beer is not fully finished fermenting that would make a sweet taste and the beer will be way out of balance. Are you getting any overcarbonated bottles after any length of time? That would also be an indication of a fermentation that was not finished and/or possibly an infection. Are you re-using the yeast and did you get a good fermentation? The only way to know is by taking hydrometer readings. 5-7 days is no guarantee and no way to know if fermentation is finished or stalled.

 

[Miraculix]

How much head space do you leave in the bottle? If more than 5mm, that's very likely the root of your problem. Good news, it's an easy fix! Just press the little release thing underneath your bottling stick at the inside of the bottle neck and slowly continue filling the bottle till about 5mm head space is left.

Also, better to prime each bottle individually, that way you don't rouse the yeast while each bottle gets the right amount of sugar. Little funnel and a spoon that fits the right amount of sugar and a 5g batch is primed in under ten minutes.

 

[bwible]

How much head space do you leave in the bottle? If more than 5mm, that's very likely the root of your problem. Good news, it's an easy fix! Just press the little release thing underneath your bottling stick at the inside of the bottle neck and slowly continue filling the bottle till about 5mm head space is left.

Also, better to prime each bottle individually, that way you don't rouse the yeast while each bottle gets the right amount of sugar. Little funnel and a spoon that fits the right amount and a 5g batch is done in under ten minutes.

I’m an American so 5mm doesn’t mean much to me. But I bet most of the commercial beers we buy have more space in them than that.

How do you sanitize your little funnel and spoon and bottling sugar?

 

[Miraculix]

I’m an American so 5mm doesn’t mean much to me. But I bet most of the commercial beers we buy have more space in them than that.

How do you sanitize your little funnel and spoon and bottling sugar?

Sugar is sanitised by itself, that's the nature of the sugar. I wash the funnel and spoon after each use, sanitise it, let it dry and directly use it next time without further treatment. 5mm is half a centimeter.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There is a "link collection" (from Sept 2021) of "successfully bottling NEIPA" topics here (link).

IIRC, there are also a couple of recent external (to HomeBrewTalk) articles that have built on these discussions.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Hey all, I have been having issues with oxidized beer. Like almost every time I brew. And with multiple styles: IPAs, pale ales, and even a Saison. Only one I couldnt tell was a stout. I have been trying to use the best low-oxygen process (that I am able to). Here is a look at my general process post-boil:
Ferment in a plastic bucket with gasket-sealed lid using a three-piece airlock filled with sanitizer. If I dry-hop I either use magnets to drop it in or put it in during active fermentation. I let it ferment for 1-2 weeks (usually only 5-7 days) and then bottle. I have a spigot with bottling wand directly attached with a short piece of tube. I crack the lid and gently fermenter prime (I have started adding some sodium metabisulfite too). Then I fill close to the top and immediately cap with oxygen-absorbing caps. The beer is oxidized within 2-3 weeks after bottling (which is usually how long it takes to condition ).
It is frustrating enough that I am about to quit homebrewing. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

When you say fermentor prime, what is your process? How do you add and mix the sugar?

 

[pc_trott]

If more than 5mm, that's very likely the root of your problem.

I guess it' a stupid question to ask, if you do this and are promoting it, but is it actually safe to leave that little headroom in the bottle? I've always assumed (in spite of what they say about assuming) that the extra space in the bottle makes it less likely that you'll get bottle bombs in case of over carbonation. (The assumption being that the extra neck space gives any excess CO2 room to condense in, while liquid does not supply that buffer.)

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

You're right pc trott. Liquid can't be compressed whereas gass can. Not enough head space is going to lead to bottle bombs even without over carbonation. I followed the advice of a random bloke on the internet and filled 4 bottles right to the top to see if there would be any difference in the finished product. There was a difference, those 4 beers burst the bottles and ended up over the floor. Turned out the bloke dishing out the advice had never actually tried it himself, but read it somewhere.
I leave about 2cm headspace in my bottles and that has never led to problems of oxidation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Loses hop flavor, sweet cardboard taste; both get progressively worse as time goes on.

FYI the compound responsible for papery/cardboard flavor is formed when oxidation occurs on the hot side. It binds to other compounds, but is slowly released during fermentation/storage, which occurs more quickly at higher temperature.

Adopting a full low oxygen process is arguably the best way to avoid this off-flavor. However, there are other ways to delay its appearance during storage. In particular, I recommend to bottle ASAP after fermentation completes. Then, several times per day turn the bottles upside-down and swirl them in a circular motion to rouse the yeast. Bottles with this treatment will carbonate in about 2–3 days. Once they are carbonated, store them refrigerated. I do not recommend sulfite at packaging.

Filling the bottles nearly to the top (not all the way) is good advice to reduce oxygen exposure (and loss of hop flavor). About 1/2" or 1cm headspace is fine.

 

[Miraculix]

You're right pc trott. Liquid can't be compressed whereas gass can. Not enough head space is going to lead to bottle bombs even without over carbonation. I followed the advice of a random bloke on the internet and filled 4 bottles right to the top to see if there would be any difference in the finished product. There was a difference, those 4 beers burst the bottles and ended up over the floor. Turned out the bloke dishing out the advice had never actually tried it himself, but read it somewhere.
I leave about 2cm headspace in my bottles and that has never led to problems of oxidation.

Exactly! That's why I'm always stressing that it is AT LEAST 5 mm space that's left. Better safe than sorry, but 5mm really is enough. I've filled hundredss of bottles this way. None exploded.

The problem is not overcarbonation, that one would make any bottle explode at some point. The real issue is thermal expansion of liquids. A few degrees higher than it was filled at and it will crack the bottle. A few degrees less and same thing might happen. A small headspace is necessary to compensate for that.

 

[Miraculix]

I guess it' a stupid question to ask, if you do this and are promoting it, but is it actually safe to leave that little headroom in the bottle? I've always assumed (in spite of what they say about assuming) that the extra space in the bottle makes it less likely that you'll get bottle bombs in case of over carbonation. (The assumption being that the extra neck space gives any excess CO2 room to condense in, while liquid does not supply that buffer.)

Please see my previous post. And no, that question wasn't stupid, it is actually an important one.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The problem is not overcarbonation, that one would make any bottle explode at some point. The real issue is thermal expansion of liquids. A few degrees higher than it was filled at and it will crack the bottle. A few degrees less and same thing might happen. A small headspace is necessary to compensate for that.

I recall that @BrewnWKopperKat posted a list of links recently about bottling beers. From my memory, in one of the threads somebody bottled cold water. A while later they posted that 1 of the 4 bottles cracked...then came back to say that all of the bottles cracked. I have read enough accounts of broken bottles due to filling to the rim that I have ruled that out as something that I want to try.

 

[Miraculix]

Double post

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The latest "link collection" (from Sept 2021) of "successfully bottling NEIPA" topics is here (link). There are a couple of newer articles on ascorbic acid that may not be in that list.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Here was the post I was thinking about: NEIPA bottling experiment using Daraform Oxygen Scavenging caps

From @Gnomebrewer :

The results of my little test are in.....
About 24 hours ago, I filled three 750mL glass bottles to the brim with 2C water. Bottles were at 13C before bottling and were capped with a normal bench/lever capper. Bottles went into a chamber at 21C. I just checked on them and things look rather inconclusive. One broken bottle, two survivors. The broken bottle may have been weak to start with. The survivors might have slightly leaky caps. Maybe it's right on the threshold of breaking. It's enough for me to say I'd be wary of over filling after crash chilling.

It seems I acted a bit prematurely - all three bottles are now broken.

 

[BeerAndTele]

FWIW, the rule I've been following is to fill to the bottom of the collar. This leaves about .75" or ~2cm of headspace. I'll paste a couple of pics below. I haven't had any bombs or cracking issues, knock on wood.

I then push a shot of wine preservative under the cap as I'm capping as @Hoppy2bmerry suggests above. I've done some side-by-side comparisons of gassed vs. ungassed bottles and the difference it makes is remarkable. I think there are some pics in the link that @BrewnWKopperKat provided above with pics of similar tests (maybe even one of mine is in there?).

All that being said, I'm not convinced that the OP's issues are isolated to bottling. I recall years ago following a process which is now considered less-than-ideal: I'd rack to a secondary - with plenty of headspace! - for a couple of weeks, then use an autosiphon to transfer to a bottling bucket; then I'd stir in a priming sugar solution; then transfer to bottles with plenty of headspace and nothing else (hey, it was common practice at the time) ... ... ... and even then I swore it was at least a month after bottling - maybe more - that I'd really notice the hop fade and darkening. I now bottle direct from the fermenter, priming each bottle separately via a funnel and follow the process listed above. Carbonation is more even for me and most importantly I don't have an issue with hop fade for a good 3 months.

I wish I had a better answer for the OP as to what might be the issue - my apologies. Maybe try the bottling process suggested in the links provided and see where that takes you?

 

[alan sabatke]

Im thinking it may be something else, you seem to be taking more precautions than I did. About two years ago, I moved a to a new home, started brewing beer and the longer it aged, the worse it was. Dumped every batch I brewed since moving and I brew 15 gal batches. Finaly had a water test done and my water is hard and a ph of 8.1. I use half tap water (well) and half RO water. Beer is perfect now! Best of luck to you!!

 

[Bobby_M]

We've all been frustrated but don't quit. Describe a little more about your whole brewing process. How do you chill your wort before fermentation? How do you get it into the bucket? How much yeast do you pitch, liquid or dry? Are you sure the seal on your bucket lid is sound? Many bucket lids leak, even with seals.

Get your beers into the hands of some more experienced brewers/beer judges and ask what they think is going on.

 

[Miraculix]

We've all been frustrated but don't quit. Describe a little more about your whole brewing process. How do you chill your wort before fermentation? How do you get it into the bucket? How much yeast do you pitch, liquid or dry? Are you sure the seal on your bucket lid is sound? Many bucket lids leak, even with seals.

Get your beers into the hands of some more experienced brewers/beer judges and ask what they think is going on.

This is me imagining a seal guarding the bucket to protect it from oxygen:

 

[Miles_1111]

Loses hop flavor, sweet cardboard taste; both get progressively worse as time goes on.

Don't give up. I used to have the same feeling as yours. I actually gave up after three years of homebrewing due to suffering from huge oxidation, but later on I picked it up and kind of solved it.

From what you have said that you had done, it should not have much oxidation problem after bottling. According to what you described about the flavor, it proved that your oxidation is not caused by the bottling process and afterwards, but what happened before that. In my opinion, losing hop flavor is common thing not necessarily is oxidation, but the cardboard taste is from the oxidation of the malts, either before you use it or during the process before the fermentation, e.g. boiling, before grinding. The oxidation after bottling should taste more like aspirin bitterness, which use to give me so many painful experiences, but it is not your case. Just my opinion.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree, with not being frustrated. You can solve this. As RPH pointed out, cardboard is a later stage flavor. More associated with later stage heavy oxidation. Having it show up in a few weeks points to other parts of the process.

Since you are BIAB, do you recall how much sediment is carried through your hot side process? From mash, to boil to fermenter? How clear is your wort going into the fermenter? Imho, sediment is a huge negative with BIAB. Just spitballing to start the conversation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As RPH pointed out, cardboard is a later stage flavor. More associated with later stage heave oxidation. Having it show up in a few weeks points to other parts of the process.

To be clear, cardboard flavor is not caused by cold side oxidation. Its early appearance is promoted by hot side oxidation, cloudy wort going in the kettle, cloudy wort going into the fermenter, and high storage temperature.

Further reading:
https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Lipids

 

[vin8n1]

Thanks you all have given me a lot of good things to think about! I have a few ideas based on your suggestions:
I stir the wort when chilling with an immersion chiller to help it cool more quickly. Could that cause some kind of harm? How would i go about checking for leaks in my fermenter? How can i keep more of the sediment from getting into the fermenter?

 

[moreb33rplz]

Not to be a jerk, but if you're sure the problem is oxidation, I think it's silly to try and address possible tiny little influences like stirring the wort when you chill it, rather than kegging. Kegging is the most practical way to avoid oxidized beer IMO

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks you all have given me a lot of good things to think about! I have a few ideas based on your suggestions:
I stir the wort when chilling with an immersion chiller to help it cool more quickly. Could that cause some kind of harm? How would i go about checking for leaks in my fermenter? How can i keep more of the sediment from getting into the fermenter?

I let the wort sit for 30 minutes after chilling to let everything settle before transferring.

 

[Bassman2003]

Not to be a jerk, but if you're sure the problem is oxidation, I think it's silly to try and address possible tiny little influences like stirring the wort when you chill it, rather than kegging. Kegging is the most practical way to avoid oxidized beer IMO

Actually, the active yeast of bottle conditioning should be an extra guard against oxidation, so bottles would be better than kegs from that perspective. Folks are not trying to stop the stirring, but rather the carrying over of "stuff" into the fermenter. Not that any of us know the real problem as we are guessing without being there. But, cardboard flavors are not made just by a little splashing or bottling practices.