Other states saturated with low quality micros?

[Mojzis]

I think about this just about every time a new brewery pops up on the map here in NY. We try to visit all of the locals and buy some beer and give support and rate which company is making good beer.

That said, we have been to a lot of small breweries that have opened up in the past few years that I feel won't be open for long. Many of the beers being sold are sub par and many in my opinion, should not be sold. When I spend a few dollars on a beer I (maybe foolishly) expect it to be good. I can get a bottle of Sams or Saranac and be happy with it (for what they are) for less than 2$ a bottle. But most of the time I visit a small brewery its like paying for full priced sub-par home brew. On top of it I like to ask questions and when a brewer has misinformation or knows relatively little about the brewing process it is more than a little disappointing. Not that I am a know it all or I make amazing beer (I don't) but that I would love to see people with skill and expertise make my local beer and most of the time its not happening.

So is this from difficulty of scaling up to a few barrel system and trial ad error? Or is it from difficulty of obtaining quality ingredients? Or are these home brewers jumping into the business head first without experience, qualified brew masters, good recipes, etc?

I tend to get into this rant when someone tries my beer and the inevitable question is asked: "do you plan to open up your own brewery?" so I have to say no, I don't make beer good enough to be sold commercially yet and besides, the market is saturated with small breweries not making good beer. Why add it to it?


Anyway I just wanted to share a discussion with everyone and see what they think and see what its like in other states/areas.

 

[Upthewazzu]

There was a "brewery" in my town that simply bought wort from another brewery up in Spokane (No-Li) and fermented it and then served it. They didn't last long.

Microbreweries are a bit fad-ish right now. That's not necessarily a bad problem to have, but we're just about at the saturation point.

 

[krackin]

There is a big difference between 'wanting' to be good at what you do, and being good at what you do. The best at any given business are those with a talent and desire, not just a 'want' and financial backing.

 

[Mojzis]

Which is the problem here in NY. They might have the want and the financial ability but the actual ability seems not to be there.

I would agree that a lot of micros are not a bad thing to have, but when most of these micros don't produce drinkable beer, it's disappointing when you want to buy a local beer but it's just not good.

For example I had some local beer a while ago and the oatmeal stout was good. They had two other beers which had an aroma similar to something rotten and cat pee. Kid you not. I couldn't finish it and couldn't bring myself to tell the guys who brewed it.

 

[+HopSpunge+]

What part of NY do you guys live in? I am from the buffalo area, and thier is only 1 microbrewery here.

 

[krackin]

There was a time not too long ago when the same bunch of cracks, yips, hips, nigs, nags, necks, squids, squash, rollers, etc. wanted to be bikers. They all wanted Harleys and the motor company complied and saturated the market with what once were highly valued motorcycles. Naturally they never supplied the long desired water cooled heavy cruiser (V-Rod ain't it). The fad crashed and so nearly did the motor company, again after again. Now there are so many low mile rides available they have to rely o Chinese made clothing.

This leaves second had sales with great inventory which is what will happen when these micros ad macros fail which most will. Look for deals and have solid experience to go with the deals.

 

[Mojzis]

What part of NY do you guys live in? I am from the buffalo area, and thier is only 1 microbrewery here.

Rochester area but I also go down towards NYC a lot for family. Most of them are listed in the finger lakes beer trail.

This leaves second had sales with great inventory which is what will happen when these micros ad macros fail which most will. Look for deals and have solid experience to go with the deals.

These second hand sales might help out someone with the experience and talent in the future. Good insight.

 

[ny101]

There are plenty of good breweries in NY. Ithaca is pumping out some decent beers, Brooklyn Brewery certainly beats Sam any day of the week. Rochester has Naked Dove brewery which is O.K.

It is hard in NY as we are such a diverse state. You have the rednecks/canadians up north, a-holes and hipsters down south, and a narrow-belt of ex-pat Floridians in the middle. Very hard to pull together a cross sectional market across that type of diversity.

I think you might need to think about what you want. If you want 2 dollar beer, then go to the nearest 7-11 and pick up Saranac or Sierra Nevada. Now if you have a bit of disposable income, and price isn't a huge deal, then you get a ton of decent options in NY. I personally hate drinking the same beer more then once a month. In my case I'm willing to venture out and try some brew, be it good, decent, or bad. This of course means I am willing to spend money, and not begrudge the brewers for trying to make a living.

 

[Hammy71]

Yes, there are a lot of brewpubs/micro breweries that are disappointing. Two years ago me and the family traveled between Colorado and Montana on vacation. Had a wonderful time and some awesome brews. Last year, we did California to Washington. Have to say I was really disappointed. We ate/drank at many brew pubs and breweries. I was really, really disappointed. I came home and started a thread about how much I hate English IPAs. It got to the point where I could tell if I would like their beers by what kind of IPA they had at the bar. If it was an American IPA, then most of the their other brews would be at least drinkable. If they had an English IPA on tap....then the beers were usually sub par. I deduced that the brewpubs with American IPAs actually gave a crap about the beer and were into making a good product not necessarily making a fortune. But the ones making English IPAs only seemed to do so to cut costs. Less hops and malt. This became and alarming, predictable occurrence as we traveled town to town. I don't know....it just seems a lot of places were there to take advantage of the "fad". Not to make good beer.

 

[brick]

Once or twice a month I go to the local bottle shop and spend a few bucks on something I have never had before. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Call it research. I have to say, though, that I have only lost big once so far (Three Heads Brewing Rochestafarian...never again!) and we do have a fair number of great micros. Schmaltz opened a brewery a few miles from my house this year and their stuff is mind-bogglingly good.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

ive been blessed to have all really good nanos and brewpubs by my location.
Some have been less than stellar but it doesnt mean they suck. Certainly none do I wish were out of business.

 

[Mojzis]

Oh well. Maybe these small breweries will get better as time goes on.

 

[Rhumbline]

...and a narrow-belt of ex-pat Floridians in the middle.

Wait a minute...there are people who move from Florida to NY?

...oh yeah, there are some we send up there to b@itch about the weather, drive like imbeciles, and whine about how you can't get a decent Key Lime Pie.

 

[whitehause]

We have the same problem in PA. There are a few good ones (Troegs and Weyerbacher come to mind) but there are a ton of bad or very so-so one's. The couple I know of personally were people with a bunch of money but no real skill. Where they fail is not hiring people with knowledge, and if they do, they don't take advice because they put up the money and you'll do it their way or the highway.

 

[runkelia]

What part of NY do you guys live in? I am from the buffalo area, and thier is only 1 microbrewery here.

Burp. 1 you say? Maybe I don't know the definition of a microbrewery is, but Buffalo is doing good I think.

Flying Bison
Community Beer Works
Hamburg

Then there's EBC (Elicotville, Fredonia) although I'm not a big fan

I read in the news recently 3 new breweries of some magnitude were granted some kind of licensing.

 

[deadfall]

I'd agree with the OP. There are a lot of sub par brewery popping up. Some have been around for a while and still suck. I did here that a lot of the breweries are actually buying there beer from a place call custom brew crafters. Most brewing on a 3-5 barrel system can't keep up in the busy season. On a better note, I did finally have a decent beer at the Abandoned brewery in Penn yan. They are even going to make a few sours. The weak will be weeded out in the end. If not everyone will own one.

 

[Mojzis]

I'd agree with the OP. There are a lot of sub par brewery popping up. Some have been around for a while and still suck. I did here that a lot of the breweries are actually buying there beer from a place call custom brew crafters. Most brewing on a 3-5 barrel system can't keep up in the busy season. On a better note, I did finally have a decent beer at the Abandoned brewery in Penn yan. They are even going to make a few sours. The weak will be weeded out in the end. If not everyone will own one.

Yeah a lot are buying beer from CB's and calling themselves breweries. Odd. I did hear Abandoned opened up and will likely head there next. I have also heard that climbing bines (?) has opened up and are making good beer.

 

[+HopSpunge+]

Burp. I forgot about flying bison. FB is better now but boy did it suck when it first came out. And the Hamburg one makes good beer but I am boycotting his stuff because he cheated and just bought the abita brewmaster to make all his beer with his dads millions. Community beer works makes really good beer but needs to mix it up a bit and make some different stuff plus they are only open a couple days a week and the dont have thier pourers liscence or whatever its called. So you can only get a growler filled between 4:51 and 4:57a.m. On thursdays jk

 

[deadfall]

Yeah a lot are buying beer from CB's and calling themselves breweries. Odd. I did hear Abandoned opened up and will likely head there next. I have also heard that climbing bines (?) has opened up and are making good beer.

If you go to Abandon brewing company you should dress well. When I was there you could still see though the walls. Me and a friend were just talking about climbing bines. I'll probably end up over there soon.

I know the feeling of trying out a new brewery and the hype has you hoping for decent beer. When you finally get there and it has lots of off flavors or doesn't even taste better then my worst home brews. I also feel like they are catering to the bud drinkers. I'd like to see a stout or a porter on the tap list occasionally. Seems like I'm always too late or too soon.

 

[elkshadow]

I'll preface by saying I drink high alcohol beers almost exclusively. Anything less than 9% has to be special. I'm a snob that way.

I feel this way at the package store more than I do going out to a brewpub. The Denver area is pretty good with breweries.

I rarely stray from my favorites at the store. I'll give any tap room a chance because you can have testers or a pint and leave if it's bad. But gambling ten bucks on some generic looking Amber or Pale Ale and getting stuck with 5 beers that you want to pour out or give away? no thanks.

 

[MikePiotti]

Abandon Brewing has some great beers. I was there a week after the grand opening and sampled all but 2 beers. Great flavor and goo quality beer. I got to talk to the owners and brew master. Like deadfall said, dress warm! But i think it adds to the overall feel of the place.

Climbing bines has good beer as well. I had one or two i wouldn't suggest, but when I was there (mid November) they had a great apple-pie pale ale that I wish i had bought a growler fill of.

Another few I visited in NY that I think were visiting was,

Two Goats - great atmosphere if that counts for anything
Finger Lakes Brewing Co.
Rooster Fish Brewing.

 

[bovineblitz]

There's a LOT of crappy little breweries around now. Like always, quality is the only thing that will keep them going long term.

Then again, Shipyard is still doing very well, so maybe that's not true.

 

[MikePiotti]

Be lucky you have micro breweries. Here in Jersey they make it nearly impossible to have a brewery. Chris Christy must be a wine-o

 

[Mojzis]

.
Another few I visited in NY that I think were visiting was,

Two Goats - great atmosphere if that counts for anything
Finger Lakes Brewing Co.
Rooster Fish Brewing.

Haven't made it to Two Goats yet. Finger Lakes made a very good watermelon wheat that I would have bought again. The rest was okay. Rooster Fish was decent, but had a lot of issues in their beer also. Or maybe its just me

Then again, Shipyard is still doing very well, so maybe that's not true.

lol

 

[deadfall]

Haven't made it to Two Goats yet. Finger Lakes made a very good watermelon wheat that I would have bought again. The rest was okay. Rooster Fish was decent, but had a lot of issues in their beer also. Or maybe its just me




lol

I thought roosterfish's beer was green or something. Same off taste I get in mine occasionally. I've been there 4 times and the taste is always there. Don't get me wrong. Decent food and far better then others.

Fingerlakes lost me with the Smoked Scotch Ale. I still have nightmares of that one.

 

[mytommygundont]

I feel like Colorado has mostly high quality breweries. There are only two that I can think of that I don't think should be in business. Competition breeds quality.

As far as saturation goes: I don't think we are anywhere near over saturation here. In terms of normal retail business sense, we could assume that because we have so many breweries, that there is no more room. However, breweries are becoming local bars. People are always looking for a place to grab a couople of beers. If the brewery provides good atmosphere and food/take out menus, that gives them an advantage over a bar down the street selling someone elses beer. In most instances, opening a brewery close to another brewery is ideal, as it creates a brewery destination (more breweries to visit at one time).

 

[tsl346]

I can weigh in for Missouri. I know its not CO as far as a craft beer state but its an interesting beer state since we have AB and the style of beer they put out compared to the beer Missouri in general has been putting out. Schlafly has been putting out great beers with only a few exceptions. There are several other microbreweries that have popped up in the STL area that have been very good. 6-row brewery in STL has made several great beers that I love to drink. There are a couple in Springfield, MO that are good. I have seen a few in Kansas City that are good, although Boulevard (although not sure if it's still considered a Micro or not) definitely has the upper hand there. I'm in Southeast MO and there are several in the general area that are great for what they are.

Now, not being in a large metropolitan area I'm sure makes a difference on the number of people trying to start up Microbreweries but Missouri has been good to me so far with providing great beers.

 

[jrgtr42]

Can't talk about other places too much, but here in Massachusetts, we have new breweries being announced all the time. While there are some that have started up in the past few years, and will be opening soon, that will stick around (Jack's Abby, Tree House, Mystic, Idle Hands, and so forth,) I'm sure that there are several more that won't make it, either because the beer is sub-par or bad business practices.

 

[mattd2]

...I would agree that a lot of micros are not a bad thing to have, but when most of these micros don't produce drinkable beer, it's disappointing when you want to buy a local beer but it's just not good...

I would say in that case having a lot of local micros is a bad thing to have. Imagine all the extra revenue that the good ones would have if they somehow could control the quality of a microbrewery before they opened! And no people trying "this new craft beer thing" getting a sub0par example and bradising the entire industry as tasting like crap.

But if you taste soemthing you don't like you should tell the brewery - they can either get butthurt over it and ignore your feedback and never get better = fail. Or they can take you advice onboard and check to see if they have an issue or just a bad recipe.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

Ya know whats going to be even more important than good beer. Good business model and business plan.
If these upstarts dont have a marketing genius at the helm along with a talented brewmaster then they are doomed.
And it will only get harder.

 

[rawlus]

Don't really have this problem in New England. Some of the smallest and newest are putting out excellent stuff.

 

[mattd2]

Ya know whats going to be even more important than good beer. Good business model and business plan.
If these upstarts dont have a marketing genius at the helm along with a talented brewmaster then they are doomed.
And it will only get harder.

It is surprising what bad products do sell when they have good marketing... I'm sure some people on here can think of some examples
I agree that there are a lot of different hats one must wear when owner/operating a microbrewery... and the brewer hat is probably the least worn! But I think it more important to be consitantly good at all aspects of the business than a superstar at one and fail the others. Most of the new start ups do not have the resources to hire a marketing guy or accomplished brewmaster. What they do have is good homebrew recipes (some awards should be in there) and pasion... and the need to either have, or learn, the running a business side and do it quickly.
I would think good beer would be something you would consider to be part of your business model... but I'm sure some of these breweries don't think that is an important part of their business plan, I mean how important is a product that the customer will enjoy anyway, I'll make 6 styles and some seasonal so they'll at least try 2-3 before they give up and leave ... fail

Make sure you have a good product, make sure you promote your good product (effectivly) and make sure you manage your cashflow/taxes...
While a marketing genius might be able to convince customers to try your product once, if it is crap they won't try it again and worst still tell their freinds it is crap.

 

[runkelia]

It is surprising what bad products do sell when they have good marketing... I'm sure some people on here can think of some examples
I agree that there are a lot of different hats one must wear when owner/operating a microbrewery... and the brewer hat is probably the least worn! But I think it more important to be consitantly good at all aspects of the business than a superstar at one and fail the others.
I would think good beer would be something you would consider to be part of your business model... but I'm sure some of these breweries don't think that is an important part of their business plan, I mean how important is a product that the customer will enjoy anyway, I'll make 6 styles and some seasonal so they'll at least try 2-3 when they visit... fail

I have heard rumor that Genesee beer, a bottom tier beer out of Rochester, NY, is being marketed in California as a craft beer. God help us if this is true.

 

[FarmerTed]

I was in in the Buffalo area for 5 days last month, and I agree with you that it's a beer desert. NY has such goofy laws, where beer is basically only sold in gas stations and grocery stores, or the random beverage places. Anytime I've been anywhere in the sate, it's really difficult to find a bottle shop with a large varity of craft beers. In the small town I live in, there are 2 liquor stores that have a better beer selection than anything I've seen anywhere in NY.

 

[Clonefan94]

Breweries right now, kind of remind me of the comedy boom back in the 80s. Everyone wanted to see comedians, so everyone and their brother was opening a comedy room. I'm afraid the craft brew thing is going that same route, but just as there are only so many good comedians, there is only so much good beer. Once people start exposing themselves more and more to craft beer, the sub-par brewers will be out of business. We'll see, but I have to admit, I'd rather see more beer than less beer, even if I have to wade through a few stinkers to find a great one.

 

[Calichusetts]

Don't really have this problem in New England. Some of the smallest and newest are putting out excellent stuff.

Agreed. Not only is my state doing great things, but the short geographical distance in the region means several states get their hands on top quality breweries. I can physically travel to most breweries in New England in a few hours tops. Mass breweries are really starting to shine, taking down a few gold medals and growing in both popularity and beer lists. I am really grateful to be in this state.

That said, there are a few embarrassing breweries around here too. A few that really have a hold in bars and continue to make it due to tourism in the area and curiosity. A few more will most likely pass but I am very pleased with the scene in my neck of the woods.

 

[judsonp]

NY has such goofy laws, where beer is basically only sold in gas stations and grocery stores, or the random beverage places. Anytime I've been anywhere in the sate, it's really difficult to find a bottle shop with a large varity of craft beers. In the small town I live in, there are 2 liquor stores that have a better beer selection than anything I've seen anywhere in NY.

In the town I live in in Upstate NY, there are two excellent beer stores that have a serious variety of craft beers. The grocery store also has a pretty solid variety of craft beers (and that grocery store is Wegmans, so there's that).

So, going to have to disagree with you there, at least for some places in NY.

On the up side, I'm pleased that half this thread is apparently about breweries in my area. I went to Abandon the weekend they opened and tried almost everything. If you get a chance, also stop by Hopshire.

 

[TopherJohn]

Having moved recently to Buffalo from Southern California, I was worried that my quality of beer life was going to take a plunge. SoCal has some mighty fine breweries. But, a little diligent research led me to find Village Beer Merchant, with two locations (one not more than a mile from my front door). They have a great selection, including taps for filling growlers. There's also Premier, which is a liquor store and gourmet grocery. Because of the flocc'd up blue laws, a liquor store can't sell food (including Angostura Bitters - it's classified as food) and a grocery can't sell wine. But at Premier the two stores share a common entrance and vestibule. The grocery has three isles devoted to all manor of beer, foreign and domestic. They also have a very high tech 12 tap growler filling station that purges the jug with CO2 before the beer gently cascades down the sides. And they have a great selection for growlers. Last time I was there they had Bear Republic (Bay area) Racer X - the imperial version of their Racer V IPA, and Black Racer (guess the style?)

You can also fill growlers at many gas stations, but those setup are sketchy at best in the hygiene department.

The local stuff isn't so bad, though I prefer Southern Tier and Ellicott to Flying Bison. Community Beer Works is ok, too. I went to a home brew event at a local art gallery, and some of the guys there were avid home brewers about to open their own brewery in South Buffalo. They hope to be ready sometime this spring. They didn't have samples, but they were. Ice guys, very passionate about the brew, and had some interesting styles lined up. Well, I thought the sounded interesting at the time, but I don't remember what they were. Other folks had samples... Anyway, the brewery will be called Rusty Nickel. I hope they're awesome. More good breweries!

Lastly, there was a big beer festival here in August, and some of the best beer I had was from Three Heads Brewing out of Rochester, which someone else here hated. Their Saison actually tasted like a saison. Beer is beautifully subjective.

 

[Tinga]

We've got the same problem here in MN. Lots of people jumping in on the fad before they should. I used to get excited when I saw a new brewery in MN or WI on the shelves but now I get apprehensive. I have been let down many many times. With that said there are also some good new companies and I think that that makes it all worth it.

 

[RonPopeil]

it's where things are right now. it's actually a good thing. sure a lot will fail but when that actually does happen people will be much more knowledgeable about beer and capable of making those decisions. there will be casualties but it will be a better world to live in.