Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[isomerization]

For those who have brewed this style what was your water chemistry?
I'm thinking probably need to increase Na and CI just unsure to what extent.
I'm looking to try hand at this recipe in a couple weeks.

My take on this style is that it is essentially a sweeter, bigger bodies NE IPA. Thus, I would bump up bitterness ~10 IBU, increase sulfate and decrease chloride.

I tapped my version right at 13 days post brew and am extremely pleased. Finished at 1.019 (with a pound of lactose). Would brew again and bump bitterness up a tad (10 IBU in kettle, 40 predicted total).

Edit, updated with better photo below

 

[couchsending]

Yeah I would agree.. although I’ve never made this “style” the lactose, FG, and all the oats are creating such a thick beer already I’d think you would want to increase the sulfate and calcium content to make it more drinkable. Lots of oats and lots of chloride leads to serious astringency in my experience.

 

[beervoid]

Yeah I would agree.. although I’ve never made this “style” the lactose, FG, and all the oats are creating such a thick beer already I’d think you would want to increase the sulfate and calcium content to make it more drinkable. Lots of oats and lots of chloride leads to serious astringency in my experience.

What kind of chloride levels are we talking?
I think gravity plays a role as well as chloride and sulfate contributions from the malts go up.
Are you saying you could go higher in chloride with non oat beers vs oat beers?
Cheers

 

[brew703]

My take on this style is that it is essentially a sweeter, bigger bodies NE IPA. Thus, I would bump up bitterness ~10 IBU, increase sulfate and decrease chloride.

I tapped my version right at 13 days post brew and am extremely pleased. Finished at 1.019 (with a pound of lactose). Would brew again and bump bitterness up a tad (10 IBU in kettle, 40 predicted total).

Lighting sucks and still a touch of yeast in suspension (first pour):
View attachment 667717

I would have thought the opposite about sulfate/chloride. I would have reduced sulfate and increased chloride. The oat cream IPA i had just about had zero hoppiness so I doubt they went high on sulfate. Just didnt taste like it.

 

[isomerization]

I would have thought the opposite about sulfate/chloride. I would have reduced sulfate and increased chloride. The oat cream IPA i had just about had zero hoppiness so I doubt they went high on sulfate. Just didnt taste like it.

Do you mean bitterness and not happiness? I’d say they balanced the beer properly then if it wasn’t cloying

I’m not advocating to flip to WC IPA sulfate levels, just that you want to bring the numbers closer together. Say from 75/200 to 100/150 (sulfate/chloride), something like that.

 

[brew703]

Yea I get what you are saying. All I know is the one I had was completely different than anything I've ever tasted.
It was no where even close to a pale ale profile so that's why I'm thinking easy on the sulfate and more chloride.

 

[isomerization]

Yea I get what you are saying. All I know is the one I had was completely different than anything I've ever tasted.
It was no where even close to a pale ale profile so that's why I'm thinking easy on the sulfate and more chloride.

Sorry, having trouble envisioning what you’re talking about. This tasted like an IPA right? Are you trying to say it was super smooth?

 

[isomerization]

Better photo:

 

[brew703]

Not sure what you drank but the oat cream IPA was nothing like an IPA. It was more NEIPA but smooth and creamy.

 

[isomerization]

Not sure what you drank but the oat cream IPA was nothing like an IPA. It was more NEIPA but smooth and creamy.

That’s literally what I said! I think we just went in circles for no reason lol.

For the record, flipping sulfate/chloride amounts doesn’t turn a NE IPA into a WC IPA. Lot more variables at play!

 

[couchsending]

CaCl and CaSo4 both increase bitterness (that’s the Ca). So4 has a drying effect on the palate so you get more of a tingling or..... well drying sensation. In correct amounts that depend on the carbonation type and level, final gravity, bitterness, it can help to make a beer more drinkable or lighter on the palate so you in turn want to take another sip.

Cl has somewhat of the opposite effect. It increases the length of the beer on the palate and tends to increase the perception of sweetness. It doesn’t have the same drying effect as So4. However in high quantities it clashes with Ca and you can get really bitter, astringent, almost chalk like sensations from it.

you can add much more Ca through CaSo4 additions before you get negative flavor or aroma (sulfur) contributions as compared to CaCl.

It’s all about balance.

PTE which was for a long time considered the reference WCIPA is made with more CaCl than CaSo4. Nate from Tree House has always said he favors “highish So4 and lowish Cl” for his beers. I’d agree when drinking them.

So there’s that.

 

[TravelingLight]

For those who have brewed this style what was your water chemistry?
I'm thinking probably need to increase Na and CI just unsure to what extent.
I'm looking to try hand at this recipe in a couple weeks.

I do a 3:1 chloride to sulfate ratio. That's what I do for all my hazies. For this one though, I added a tough of NaCl (about 50ppm) in hopes of providing a slight sweetness perception to contrast the "juiciness."

 

[brew703]

I do a 3:1 chloride to sulfate ratio. That's what I do for all my hazies. For this one though, I added a tough of NaCl (about 50ppm) in hopes of providing a slight sweetness perception to contrast the "juiciness."

I'm thinking of adding NaCI in the 50ppm range. How did that addition affect the mouthfeel?

 

[brew703]

View attachment 667812 Better photo:

nice looking beer there.

 

[brew703]

I brew this on 2/8:

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

Hopefully I can update this post with a picture. I was wanting to get one with some good outdoor lighting, but it's been rainy and dreary here all week. This one probably has the best body and mouthfeel of any NEIPA I've done yet. My only complaint is the color. I'd like to lighten it up some. Looking at that grist, you'd think it would be very light. But it's still got this darker opaqueness to it that I don't like. I've been in a color slump lately. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time because I don't think it's doing much and is adding some color. IME with these beers, and I love them so I've brewed a ton of them, there's this window on the color spectrum that I hate. As absolutely light in color as possible, like sub-4 SRM, and you're good. Or if you take it a little darker and get the right ratio of small percentages of higher lovibond malts, and you get that beautiful almost neon orange Sunny D look. But in between those two ends of the spectrum you run the risk of it looking like dirty dish water. That's my experience. And lately I've been whiffing on color. I'll try and upload a pic of this one later.

ETA: I also missed my OG 7 points low because I had a brain fart and didn't tighten the gap on my mill for the oats. Lesson learned.

How did this turn out?

 

[TravelingLight]

I'm thinking of adding NaCI in the 50ppm range. How did that addition affect the mouthfeel?

How did this turn out?

Pretty damn well pleased. This one definitely has the best body and mouthfeel of any of the countless ones I've brewed before. On rebrew, I'll probably drop the raw wheat because I don't think it added much (but I may feel different after I brew it). I think I definitely got what I wanted to get from the salt. This one finished a little lower than I typically prefer (finished at 1.013, I typically prefer around 1.016ish), so I think I got some sweetness from the NaCl addition. Suffice, to say, this grist will be my main grist for these beers moving forward, at least until I get tired of it.

 

[brew703]

I think I'll give it a try. Going to order my grains today.
I've brewed so many NEIPAS lately I'm anxious to try something different

 

[brew703]

Pretty damn well pleased. This one definitely has the best body and mouthfeel of any of the countless ones I've brewed before. On rebrew, I'll probably drop the raw wheat because I don't think it added much (but I may feel different after I brew it). I think I definitely got what I wanted to get from the salt. This one finished a little lower than I typically prefer (finished at 1.013, I typically prefer around 1.016ish), so I think I got some sweetness from the NaCl addition. Suffice, to say, this grist will be my main grist for these beers moving forward, at least until I get tired of it.

No photo?

 

[TravelingLight]

No photo?

I had been waiting on better weather to get a good outdoor lighting shot, but weather has been crap. Regardless, I'll snap one tonight.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Lighting plays such a big part in these photos, but this is 3 weeks from the day it was brewed. Quick reminder:

50% 2-row, 50% malted oats, 1 pound lactose, 16 ounces of total hops, 10 oz dry hop.

It’s very soft and drinking nicely. I keep my keezer at 46 and carb the beer to about 12 psi. For whatever it’s worth I find that it gets much better as it warms up a bit, about 10-15 minutes after pouring it. All in all I’m
very pleased with it.

 

[flintoid]

View attachment 668157 Lighting plays such a big part in these photos, but this is 3 weeks from the day it was brewed. Quick reminder:

50% 2-row, 50% malted oats, 1 pound lactose, 16 ounces of total hops, 10 oz dry hop.

It’s very soft and drinking nicely. I keep my keezer at 46 and carb the beer to about 12 psi. For whatever it’s worth I find that it gets much better as it warms up a bit, about 10-15 minutes after pouring it. All in all I’m
very pleased with it.

That's got some great color to it. What yeast did you use? And what was your starting water chemistry?

 

[HopsAreGood]

That's got some great color to it. What yeast did you use? And what was your starting water chemistry?

Thanks, I like the color too. I’ve used all the usual suspects as far as yeasts go but this one was Hothead from Omega. (Kveik) Fermented right around 90 degrees and was done in three days.

I don’t have the exact water in front of me but I never stray far from the following for all my “hoppy ales.”

Ca: 70-80
Mg: 10
Na: 40-50
So4: 120
CaCl: 120

I’ve played with water levels a lot too and have found that this always works pretty well for what I’m going for. Pushing the sulfate or chloride significantly in either direction has never resulted in anything that made me want to do it again so I’ve settled in on this profile.

 

[sfrisby]

View attachment 668157

50% 2-row, 50% malted oats, 1 pound lactose, 16 ounces of total hops, 10 oz dry hop.

Was this a 5 gal batch?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Was this a 5 gal batch?

Yup. 5 gallon batch.

 

[K_tile]

I drink and make all styles of beer. But the color this style can bring just makes me thirsty. Great work.

 

[DrinkFresh]

Do you think the Kveik yeast brings the FG a bit too low for this style? I recently brewed with Hornindal Kveik from Omega, and while its a beast at fermenting fast, I ended up with an 1.011 FG, resulting in a dryer, less sweet beer.. which threw off the "juicy"ness

Totally agree with it being finicky in nailing the SRM, I added a couple more pounds of 2-Row this past batch to up the ABV, but ended up with 5 maybe 6 SRM...! Beer looks way better in the sunlight though

Any tips to lighten up the SRM and boosting ABV

 

[isomerization]

Do you think the Kveik yeast brings the FG a bit too low for this style? I recently brewed with Hornindal Kveik from Omega, and while its a beast at fermenting fast, I ended up with an 1.011 FG, resulting in a dryer, less sweet beer.. which threw off the "juicy"ness

Totally agree with it being finicky in nailing the SRM, I added a couple more pounds of 2-Row this past batch to up the ABV, but ended up with 5 maybe 6 SRM...! Beer looks way better in the sunlight though

Any tips to lighten up the SRM and boosting ABV

My beer finished at 1.019 but had a pound of lactose, so probably close to 1.011 w/o. Used 1318 and I’m very pleased with the final balance between sweetness, body and hip character.

Maybe try dosing a glass with the equivalent amount of lactose (boiled in as little water as possible)? Could be lack of yeast esters, hop choice or IBUs, too.

 

[DrinkFresh]

My beer finished at 1.019 but had a pound of lactose, so probably close to 1.011 w/o. Used 1318 and I’m very pleased with the final balance between sweetness, body and hip character.

Maybe try dosing a glass with the equivalent amount of lactose (boiled in as little water as possible)? Could be lack of yeast esters, hop choice or IBUs, too.

Yeah this batch I decided to leave out the lactose, so wanted to see if I could retain some sweetness without it.

I used Galaxy, Vic Secret and Simcoe and am getting delicious tropical pineapple and mango sweetness from the aroma... But falls flat in the taste/sweetness (too dry). Previously used Citra, giving it a more citrus aroma with the same Kveik yeast, which tasted fine...

Maybe it is a combo of hop choice and the Kveik that's not carrying through the perceived sweetness? With citrusy hops the dry character is less noticeable?

Maybe I should mash higher and use 1318 or another English ale yeast to get the desired FG and sweetness I'm looking for.

Thanks for the feedback! And this whole thread has been incredibly helpful!

 

[Dog House Brew]

Yeah this batch I decided to leave out the lactose, so wanted to see if I could retain some sweetness without it.

I used Galaxy, Vic Secret and Simcoe and am getting delicious tropical pineapple and mango sweetness from the aroma... But falls flat in the taste/sweetness (too dry). Previously used Citra, giving it a more citrus aroma with the same Kveik yeast, which tasted fine...

Maybe it is a combo of hop choice and the Kveik that's not carrying through the perceived sweetness? With citrusy hops the dry character is less noticeable?

Maybe I should mash higher and use 1318 or another English ale yeast to get the desired FG and sweetness I'm looking for.

Thanks for the feedback! And this whole thread has been incredibly helpful!

For what this is worth, every time I’ve used any Kveik strain in hoppy styles, it left me underwhelmed. Even though it attenuated, it didn’t let hops shine through. There was a muddled finish to them. It didn’t remind me of an English style yeast that has that has that driven character. Or it having a Chico hop shine either. Kveik to me isn’t a yeast I’m using for any hop driven beer. This is only my opinion, I think there are better choices for hoppy styles. That said, Kveik was awesome in a cream ale recipe I did.

 

[TravelingLight]

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

 

[isomerization]

Yeah this batch I decided to leave out the lactose, so wanted to see if I could retain some sweetness without it.

I used Galaxy, Vic Secret and Simcoe and am getting delicious tropical pineapple and mango sweetness from the aroma... But falls flat in the taste/sweetness (too dry). Previously used Citra, giving it a more citrus aroma with the same Kveik yeast, which tasted fine...

Maybe it is a combo of hop choice and the Kveik that's not carrying through the perceived sweetness? With citrusy hops the dry character is less noticeable?

Maybe I should mash higher and use 1318 or another English ale yeast to get the desired FG and sweetness I'm looking for.

Thanks for the feedback! And this whole thread has been incredibly helpful!

You might be picking up astringency from the higher polyphenol content of the those hops versus Citra (alone?), likely multiple factors.

My experience with kveik is that they emactually produce a sensation of increased body relative to gravity when compared to American/English yeasts.

 

[brew703]

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

View attachment 668406 View attachment 668407

That's a pretty hazy beer. I'll be brewing my version in two weeks.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

View attachment 668406 View attachment 668407

Beer looks great! Is that a Charles town fermentory glass I see there?

 

[DrinkFresh]

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

View attachment 668406 View attachment 668407

Looks awesome! Kveik and no lactose too, I might have to try this recipe... I wonder how did you find it tasting?

 

[TravelingLight]

Beer looks great! Is that a Charles town fermentory glass I see there?

Indeed it is! I absolutely love CTF. I don't live in Charleston anymore (haven't for quite some years), but I've still got buddies down there who get me beers from them and I always swing by when I'm in the lowcountry. You in Chas?

Looks awesome! Kveik and no lactose too, I might have to try this recipe... I wonder how did you find it tasting?

Other than switching up the hops (more on that in a minute), I'm damn pleased. It's probably got the most body and best mouthfeel of any I've done in recent memory. It's thick and chewy, just like I like them. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time, just because I don't think it's bringing much to the beer. So I'd probably drop the raw wheat and bump the malted oats closer to 50%.

I was drinking it 6 days after brewing it, so it was certainly a little green for the first week or so, but it's rounding out nicely now. Vic secret is one of my favorite hops (and of course citra), but this was the first time using Bru-1. I wanted to try it because they advertise it as being a big pineapple bomb. And pineapple is all I get from vic secret (one of the main reasons I love it so much). But I can't figure out this Bru-1. I think it gets lost behind the citra and vic secret.

Finally, before I started playing around with Voss, my go-to NEIPA yeast was the NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Biology. Not sure what the blend is, but consensus seems to be that it's a blend of 644 (sacc "trois") and Conan. It brings plenty of haze but seems to flocc a little better than Voss. But it also throws big stone fruit notes and tropical fruit. So when I rebrew this I'll use the NEEPAH blend.

 

[isomerization]

Finally, before I started playing around with Voss, my go-to NEIPA yeast was the NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Biology. Not sure what the blend is, but consensus seems to be that it's a blend of 644 (sacc "trois") and Conan. It brings plenty of haze but seems to flocc a little better than Voss. But it also throws big stone fruit notes and tropical fruit. So when I rebrew this I'll use the NEEPAH blend.

FYI on NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Bio, this is from Jeff himself back in 2018:
“Thanks for purchasing a NEEPAH Blend! The strains are very similar to English brewing yeast, that's why we also suggest using this blend for also making English styles of beer. That being said, the cultures are very fruity! The ratios will definitely change with each successive pitch, but the flavor profile and fermentation should still stay pretty close to the original. I think at most successive generations of pitches will likely produce drier beers.”

Last comment is interesting, I guess that could by the WLP644-like strain taking over? Is that considered an English strain?

 

[TravelingLight]

FYI on NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Bio, this is from Jeff himself back in 2018:
“Thanks for purchasing a NEEPAH Blend! The strains are very similar to English brewing yeast, that's why we also suggest using this blend for also making English styles of beer. That being said, the cultures are very fruity! The ratios will definitely change with each successive pitch, but the flavor profile and fermentation should still stay pretty close to the original. I think at most successive generations of pitches will likely produce drier beers.”

Last comment is interesting, I guess that could by the WLP644-like strain taking over? Is that considered an English strain?

Super interesting! I was not aware of those comments from Jeff. I overbuild and harvest off my starters, and I've learned at least IME, about five generations is the limit on the blend. But what I found is that it starts to attenuate less. But maybe Jeff referencing later gens producing drier beers are those harvested from the fermenter? I dunno. I don't think 644 is considered an english strain, but I could certainly be wrong. Regardless, I pitch it around 68-69, and I ramp it to 72 by day two and let it finish out at that temp.

 

[DrinkFresh]

Other than switching up the hops (more on that in a minute), I'm damn pleased. It's probably got the most body and best mouthfeel of any I've done in recent memory. It's thick and chewy, just like I like them. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time, just because I don't think it's bringing much to the beer. So I'd probably drop the raw wheat and bump the malted oats closer to 50%.

I was drinking it 6 days after brewing it, so it was certainly a little green for the first week or so, but it's rounding out nicely now. Vic secret is one of my favorite hops (and of course citra), but this was the first time using Bru-1. I wanted to try it because they advertise it as being a big pineapple bomb. And pineapple is all I get from vic secret (one of the main reasons I love it so much). But I can't figure out this Bru-1. I think it gets lost behind the citra and vic secret.

Finally, before I started playing around with Voss, my go-to NEIPA yeast was the NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Biology. Not sure what the blend is, but consensus seems to be that it's a blend of 644 (sacc "trois") and Conan. It brings plenty of haze but seems to flocc a little better than Voss. But it also throws big stone fruit notes and tropical fruit. So when I rebrew this I'll use the NEEPAH blend.

That's really good to know! I was going for a sweet pineapple bomb too with my hop combo, maybe I'll go with just Vic Secret next time and a whole lot more malted oats!

How low did the final gravity finish at with the Voss?

Either way it sounds like you nailed what you were going for with your recipe and using Kveik... Maybe I just did not get the best balance of sweetness and mouthfeel when I used the Hornindal in my recipe. I gotta try yours!

 

[Bibbett]

FYI on NEEPAH blend from Bootleg Bio, this is from Jeff himself back in 2018:
“Thanks for purchasing a NEEPAH Blend! The strains are very similar to English brewing yeast, that's why we also suggest using this blend for also making English styles of beer. That being said, the cultures are very fruity! The ratios will definitely change with each successive pitch, but the flavor profile and fermentation should still stay pretty close to the original. I think at most successive generations of pitches will likely produce drier beers.”

Last comment is interesting, I guess that could by the WLP644-like strain taking over? Is that considered an English strain?

Imperial dry hop is Conan and Sacc Trois and the Alvarado st guys were of the view that the Conan takes over eventually. Could be the same blend? Yeast bay’s hazy days blend is meant to contain 4 strains, one of which is diastatic and presumably Sacc Trois. Seems to be a winning combo.

I’ve heard of at least one brewery that goes to the trouble of blending LA3 and Conan but does anyone offer this blend off the shelf?

Here’s a quick shot of my most recent IPA

It’s not intended to be an oat cream hazy but I’d love it to have that slightly deeper more intense haze to it. Is there a middle ground for adjunct percentage that delivers the really opaque look without pushing into that super creamy territory?

This was a simple 80% pils + 20% malted oats. OG 1.060 FG 1.015. Fermented with Imperial Juice with half the dry hop load at 24hrs then fermented under pressure with the remainder of hops at day8 after soft crashing to about 50f. I think I’ll up the dry hop from 3 to 4 lb/bbl but the Citra/Nelson/mosaic blend is killer! Super saturated citrus and tropical fruit with a heap of that rose/cotton candy thing hat mosaic seems to bring. I’m super stoked on it but would love to push that appearance a bit further!

 

[brew703]

Imperial dry hop is Conan and Sacc Trois and the Alvarado st guys were of the view that the Conan takes over eventually. Could be the same blend? Yeast bay’s hazy days blend is meant to contain 4 strains, one of which is diastatic and presumably Sacc Trois. Seems to be a winning combo.

I’ve heard of at least one brewery that goes to the trouble of blending LA3 and Conan but does anyone offer this blend off the shelf?

Here’s a quick shot of my most recent IPAView attachment 668695

It’s not intended to be an oat cream hazy but I’d love it to have that slightly deeper more intense haze to it. Is there a middle ground for adjunct percentage that delivers the really opaque look without pushing into that super creamy territory?

This was a simple 80% pils + 20% malted oats. OG 1.060 FG 1.015. Fermented with Imperial Juice with half the dry hop load at 24hrs then fermented under pressure with the remainder of hops at day8 after soft crashing to about 50f. I think I’ll up the dry hop from 3 to 4 lb/bbl but the Citra/Nelson/mosaic blend is killer! Super saturated citrus and tropical fruit with a heap of that rose/cotton candy thing hat mosaic seems to bring. I’m super stoked on it but would love to push that appearance a bit further!

I've never been able to get that haze. They have all turned out somewhat hazy/cloudy but my NEIPAs have all cleared before the keg kicks.

I'll be brewing an Oat Cream IPA maybe next weekend using 20% flaked oats and 20% oat malt. Either going to use Conan or 1318. Still trying to decide on water profile.

Wish I could get some Yeast Bay to try but no nearby LHBS has it.