Oregon to raise beer tax 1900%

[GunnerMan]

1. 20cents is not that big of a deal.

See above statement I made, 5 pints and you have already paid a dollar more of tax. And yeah .22 cents yeah we can hang but what happens next year when they go for it again, and it turns into .44 cents and so on...it is very hard to drive taxes like these back down.

As far as Oregon goes, im not going to stay up all night reading the budget to find what I think is waste but I found this: Citizens Against Government Waste: NewsRelease_01302003

and this Wasteful Spending, Pork Barrel Politics Won’t Rescue Oregon’s Economy - The Oregon Catalyst

A bit of their history http://www.cagw.org/site/DocServer/Oregon_Pig_Book_-_Finalpdf.pdf?docID=161

Glad to see Oregonians are shooting down some of the proposed tax hickes, gotta let those politians know that they are not their personal credit cards.

 

[2bluewagons]

Again i can't possibly list everything tax pays nor did i attempt to. But I agree completely too much spending with the odd bit of fraud and corruption is leading to excessive waste, savings could be found and tax could be significantly reduced BUT compared to the rest of the world you are laughing. Take a look around the globe and see what others have. I think you would gladly throw another 20 cents to tax when you see how the other half lives.

I never meant to turn this into a debate, I just think its silly to worry about something so insignificant especially in a time when you really have to have faith in the government you elected.

Faith in government does not equate to blind agreement with their proposals. I fully support the people paying for the things that make their lives better, but the tax is not insignificant to the large number of small craft brewers here in Oregon.

The problem with this proposed tax is that it levies on the brewer, not the consumer. As someone else pointed out, the tax is not being considered for the wine industry which for the most part operates on much higher margins than craft brewers.

No one can seem to agree on the numbers, and it may be the brewers inflating the real cost per pint to draw attention to the issue. But if we allow a specific tax on the beer industry, what's next? Lumber? Cattle? Hops??? I'd support a sales tax (we currently don't have one) before we start taxing different industries one by one. A sales tax is another very unpopular senate proposal currently under consideration.

Now to get back to something more tangible, I'm going to continue to enjoy my first taste of my second batch of homebrew.

 

[GuitarBob]

Well if you don't want to pay it then do something about it. Form a protest, write a nasty letter, find some proof this is not in Oregon's best interest. Do you homework. Hell leave the country. It seems complaining about it on homebrew talk is of little use.

While I don't know about Oregon's budget problem i find it hard to believe it is solely beer drinkers that are going to pick up the 3 billion dollar deficit.

Guitarbob it is a growing trend that raising tax is easier then cutting spending. Its happening everywhere. While I don't agree with it, I don't feel passionate enough to try and change it. But if someone here is I wish you the best of luck.

Protesting and writing letters doesn't do any good. These politicians act like they are the rich noblemen of medieval times, they are completely unaccountable especially in the very blue or very red parts of the country.

There used to be a time in this country where atleast one of the political parties believed in fiscal responsibility, but unfortuantly thats no longer the case. Now it seems like even voting is a waste time.

It just really angers me that every family, every individual, and every business has to live within their means, but the government never has to, and the more the government grows the more the private sector in this country shrinks.

It would really be nice if we could have one country in this world that still believed in small government, and free markets, but unfortuantly we don't.

 

[GuitarBob]

Also i never voted for Obama. I never voted at all. Both the democrats and republicans **** up and **** us over. They just do it in different ways. I ride the wave and enjoy the quality of life much of the world does not have. I wake up every day and thank god i was born in a free country and not in Somalia. Call me whatever you like but I will pay whatever the state ask within reason, and live in a delightful country where i do not have to be a pirate.

How long do you think you'll enjoy that quality of life if government keeps sucking money out the private sector? How many manufactoring jobs do you think will left if Obama pushes through his ridiculous cap and trade plan? Propsperity doesn't die with a bang, it slowly fades away, and eventually you wake up, look around, and wonder "what the hell happened?"

Freedom also doesn't die out with a bang, but instead is just slowly regulated away into nothingness. Look over seas freedom isn't growing, it's dying. Freedom is dying all in the name of the "greater good' or "sensitivity" or whatever.

Last year Mark Steyn was hauled up in front the Canadian Human Rights Commission and put on trial for something the man wrote. Let me say that again, a man was put on trial for what he wrote in Canada. Here we have a country with long tradition of free-speech just throwing it out the window.

It's not just Canada either, new laws designed to stop so-called hate speech are passed every day in various European countries. Supposedly democratic countries are cracking down on a core democratic principal.

Everyone should pay attention to these events, because this is how liberty dies. Not from jack-booted thugs or foreign armies, or dictators with short little mustaches, but rather from a bunch of do-gooders who feel they know whats better for us.

 

[taylornate]

1. 20cents is not that big of a deal.

The fact that they are only taking a little bit at a time does not change the fact that they shouldn't be taking it in the first place. All that does is fool people like you into not caring about it. It does add up.

2. Tax (not necessary beer tax) is necessary to enjoy the quality of life we live today. I even went as far as to agree allot of it is wasted. I just don't think that number is as high as 3 billion.

Beer tax is what we are talking about here. To backtrack and claim you were not referring to a beer tax is dishonest.

Ugh.... Clayton i guess you misunderstood me. I meant to challenge a "3 billion budget deficit because of wasteful democrat spending." not the balance of rep vs dem. You would have to be a moron to think i would argue such publicly available information.

Your posts are hard to follow. When I read your posts, I don't know what you are responding to because you don't quote it. Also, maybe what you said came out wrong, but you called Clayton a moron.

 

[mat_890]

Beer tax is what we are talking about here. To backtrack and claim you were not referring to a beer tax is dishonest.

We are talking about FAR more then JUST a beer tax here...to claim otherwise would be dishonest. You seem to be more worried about poking holes in my views then expressing your own.

Your posts are hard to follow. When I read your posts, I don't know what you are responding to because you don't quote it. Also, maybe what you said came out wrong, but you called Clayton a moron.

My posts may be a little hard to follow but its also hard to respond. Right now its like 6 vs. 1 hell I probably have the record for the most posts responding directly to my post. While i never meant to directly call clayton a moron... cry me a river

 

[mat_890]

How long do you think you'll enjoy that quality of life if government keeps sucking money out the private sector? How many manufactoring jobs do you think will left if Obama pushes through his ridiculous cap and trade plan? Propsperity doesn't die with a bang, it slowly fades away, and eventually you wake up, look around, and wonder "what the hell happened?"

Freedom also doesn't die out with a bang, but instead is just slowly regulated away into nothingness. Look over seas freedom isn't growing, it's dying. Freedom is dying all in the name of the "greater good' or "sensitivity" or whatever.

Last year Mark Steyn was hauled up in front the Canadian Human Rights Commission and put on trial for something the man wrote. Let me say that again, a man was put on trial for what he wrote in Canada. Here we have a country with long tradition of free-speech just throwing it out the window.

It's not just Canada either, new laws designed to stop so-called hate speech are passed every day in various European countries. Supposedly democratic countries are cracking down on a core democratic principal.

Everyone should pay attention to these events, because this is how liberty dies. Not from jack-booted thugs or foreign armies, or dictators with short little mustaches, but rather from a bunch of do-gooders who feel they know whats better for us.

While I by no means am an expert on the topic i do agree. It was only last week in Montreal they tried to pass a law that would make it illegal to say anything nasty to the police. Whats next?

That being said history will tell us that you can only push so far before people get of their asses and stop it themselves. Need I need to link a few historic events?

Here is the difference between me and you. I agree its an issue, I do nothing to stop and prevent it BUT I accept it. You instead complain as if its a fix for the problem.

I mean who the hell gives me the right or you or anybody to say what is 100% best for the state, country or whatever. We each get one vote and the opportunity to run ourselves. That's it.

 

[mat_890]

The problem with this proposed tax is that it levies on the brewer, not the consumer. As someone else pointed out, the tax is not being considered for the wine industry which for the most part operates on much higher margins than craft brewers.

I'm actually the one who pointed that out. I don't believe its fair that JUST brewers and beer drinkers pay. BUT can anyone say for sure that's the case or is tax going up all around?

 

[Parker36]

Let the people of Oregon decide their own taxes. Bottom line is, if you do not live there, you have no business being upset about this. It would be like sticking your nose into your neighbor's divorce negotiations.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Let the people of Oregon decide their own taxes. Bottom line is, if you do not live there, you have no business being upset about this. It would be like sticking your nose into your neighbor's divorce negotiations.

I disagree. Deschutes is one of my favorite breweries. This will effect me, their distributors, the stores that carry it, and anyone else who enjoys beer from Oregon. It isn't a tax that is only inclusive to Oregon.

 

[Beernip]

Ok, Oregon already has one of, if not the largest, tax bracket. Anyone that makes over $7300/year is taxed at 9%.

For single taxpayers and married couples filing separate returns:
-- 5 percent on the first $2,900 of taxable income.
-- 7 percent on taxable income between $2,901 and $7,300.
-- 9 percent on taxable income of $7,301 and above.

Nine %@$ing percent of my income is already going to NOT pay for schools, as my children are loosing teachers this year. Nine @#%@ing percent it NOT going to police as we are at a decade low for the number of police we have on the streets. Now they want to more from me that may or may not (as history here in Oregon has shown) for drug and alcohol treatment. How many alcoholics do you know that still drink beer? People are in rehab because they are strung out on meth. You know why? We don't have many police on the streets.

Let's have some fiscal responsibility here and stop funding programs we can't afford. Maybe this is not the year to increase the Oregon Health plan by 2 billion so we can help low income families. Yeah, It's a nice thing to do but we can't afford it!

/rant

 

[Parker36]

I disagree. Deschutes is one of my favorite breweries. This will effect me, their distributors, the stores that carry it, and anyone else who enjoys beer from Oregon. It isn't a tax that is only inclusive to Oregon.

The tax is inclusive to Oregon. It is a state tax, and they have every right to have their own taxes. I'm sure your state has many taxes on products which are exported to other states, but that does not give them a right to ***** about their laws/taxes. The people of Oregon have decided that what is best for them is to tax beer. Telling them to do something different because you don't like it is selfish

 

[Beernip]

The tax is inclusive to Oregon. It is a state tax, and they have every right to have their own taxes. I'm sure your state has many taxes on products which are exported to other states, but that does not give them a right to ***** about their laws/taxes. The people of Oregon have decided that what is best for them is to tax beer. Telling them to do something different because you don't like it is selfish

I believe it is against federal law to impose import/export tax between states.

 

[Parker36]

I believe it is against federal law to impose import/export tax between states.

Yes, but they aren't taxing it as an export/import, they are taxing the production.

 

[Beernip]

Yes, but they aren't taxing it as an export/import, they are taxing the production.

Correct, so anyone buying beer made in Oregon will be taxed. Have you ever drank a beer from Oregon? You thought Rogue was expensive before.

Our beer tax is going to "help" pay for Health services in Oregon. The 2009 budget is 13.9 Billion dollars. The beer tax would earn an extra ~$161 million per year. That is about .1% of the funds needed for all the services they would "like" to provide. Maybe the problem is not looking for more things to tax.

BTW: If you work 20 hours/week at minimum wage you would be in the top (9%) income tax bracket in Oregon.

 

[taylornate]

that does not give them a right to ***** about their laws/taxes.

As an American citizen I have the right to ***** about what ever I want

 

[Beernip]

As an American citizen I have the right to ***** about what ever I want

States also look at each other for tax models on what works and what doesn't.

Remember when Oregon was the first state to implement a $.05 bottle deposit.

 

[homebrewer_99]

This type of tax is SOOOOO simple to get tossed out...Do you REALLY want to change that?

All you have to do is get the ENTIRE drinking community from that state to BOYCOTT the product and not purchase any of it for a month...they'll repeal it...everyone living around the border states can go across state lines and purchase...they'll be in the news, just like when an adjoining state's lottery goes astronomical what's the first thing you hear on TV from Cletus at the gas station/lottery counter? "They're coming from all over" you've seen it.

Better still...continue going to the same old bars/Hooters, etc...and DON'T BUY ANY BEER, just soda...see how long the stores/dealers will stand for that!!!

Bars and dealers are only going to pass that cost on to the consumer. When the consumer will not consume...then the dealers will petition the state to repeal the tax. Very simple.

 

[GunnerMan]

This type of tax is SOOOOO simple to get tossed out...Do you REALLY want to change that?

All you have to do is get the ENTIRE drinking community from that state to BOYCOTT the product and not purchase any of it for a month...they'll repeal it...everyone living around the border states can go across state lines and purchase...they'll be in the news, just like when an adjoining state's lottery goes astronomical what's the first thing you hear on TV from Cletus at the gas station/lottery counter? "They're coming from all over" you've seen it.

Better still...continue going to the same old bars/Hooters, etc...and DON'T BUY ANY BEER, just soda...see how long the stores/dealers will stand for that!!!

Bars and dealers are only going to pass that cost on to the consumer. When the consumer will not consume...then the dealers will petition the state to repeal the tax. Very simple.

Thats is a great idea and there needs to be more people like you who would do that. There are far to many people like Mat thought, that would just say screw it. And mat I disagree that talking about(or complaining in your words) is worthless. It might not get a whole lot accomplished but it is a whole lot better than just sitting there telling yourself you can't do anything and so we need to let it go. That attitude is what gets us into these positions in the first place. By talking about it, we can educate and inform ourselves and other people. Get more people talking about it and lobbying against it.

Parker, it may not directly affect people outside of oregon but we have every right to disagree with the principal of it. I hear in the News all the time "So and so state has enacted a new law..." To be blind of what is going on around you is to be blind on what might happen to you.

The federal govt makes about 3% of excise tax(beer, cigaretes, etc) that is nothing, that wont even make a dent in the interest paymenst for the national debt(a number which took up 14% of the budget in 2007).(I cant cite sources, but I can email my professor for them if it is an issue). These kinds of taxes on the state and federal level really don't make much of an impact.

 

[mat_890]

Thats is a great idea and there needs to be more people like you who would do that. There are far to many people like Mat thought, that would just say screw it. And mat I disagree that talking about(or complaining in your words) is worthless. It might not get a whole lot accomplished but it is a whole lot better than just sitting there telling yourself you can't do anything and so we need to let it go. That attitude is what gets us into these positions in the first place. By talking about it, we can educate and inform ourselves and other people. Get more people talking about it and lobbying against it.

While it's a great idea and I would love to see it happen I bet it won't. I think there are too many people like you who are all talk and no action, how do you figure your better then me? If they were going to raise tax two dollars per beer (i know its per barrel) I would say this kind of action is necessary, even one dollar would warrant something. But 20 cents really?

Would you really boycott buying beer at a pub to save 20 cents. Take a look at what that's going to do to brewers, employees, restaurants, liquor stores, etc especially if you don't win which in reality IS a possibility. The cost of this tax will be passed to the consumer NOT absorbed by the brewer.

Believe it or not its not all about YOU.

 

[DeathBrewer]

I agree that that would hurt the breweries, brewpubs, restaurants, etc. that sold the beer.

Don't really care to comment further, except to say...I feel for you, Oregon.

 

[taylornate]

It's pretty obvious now that mat is just trolling.

 

[mat_890]

. There are far to many people like Mat thought, that would just say screw it.

. It's pretty obvious now that mat is just trolling.

Actually the last post is more trolling then anything i have ever read on HBT you knew full well I would respond when you called me out and for some reason i shamelessly fell into it.

Offer you opinion and I will read it. Don't call me out if you don't want a direct response.


That being said you, me and a few others have offered more then our 0.02 cents

Ok so get your last smack in at me (taylornate AND gunnerman) and we will stop spamming the thread with off topic posts and end the argument. Deal?

If anyone doesn't understand "trolling" its here http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling I had to look it up having not heard the term before.

 

[GunnerMan]

While it's a great idea and I would love to see it happen I bet it won't. I think there are too many people like you who are all talk and no action, how do you figure your better then me? If they were going to raise tax two dollars per beer (i know its per barrel) I would say this kind of action is necessary, even one dollar would warrant something. But 20 cents really?

Would you really boycott buying beer at a pub to save 20 cents. Take a look at what that's going to do to brewers, employees, restaurants, liquor stores, etc especially if you don't win which in reality IS a possibility. The cost of this tax will be passed to the consumer NOT absorbed by the brewer.

Believe it or not its not all about YOU.

I never said I myself would boycot beer in a pub to save 20 cents(unless there was a larger movement involved), but I would certanly buy less, just because I would reach my nightly budget faster. Like I said in my last post even if I am all talk, talk is better than nothing. If this were in my state I would be all over my representatives phones and emails.

A boycot would hurt a lot of people, a boycot would probably not be the best solution, but again the principle of the idea is very important. I never figured I am better than you, I was just pointing out that you are here saying that you wont make a difference and so you would rather take the bullet without standing up for what you belive in and then go on to tell us that we ourselves are all talk and no action. I am not going to go protest in the streets, or boycot a beer for a 20 cent increase, or dump beer in the streets. I will however adapt my lifestyle(drink less beer bought from stores/pubs), I will write and call my representatives and governor, I will expres my feelings to other peaople, and I wont vote for the people making these taxes.

So no maybe my actions don't look obvious but they are there and they are just about the most effective ways of using your personal powers as a citezen in our government.

I am not trying to be an ass, a troll, or anything, and I see your point of view, I just happen to disagree with it and as far as I see everyone here is being pretty civilized and ive said all I need to say on the matter.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I agree that that would hurt the breweries, brewpubs, restaurants, etc. that sold the beer.

Don't really care to comment further, except to say...I feel for you, Oregon.

That is EXACTLY my point...when consumers REFUSE to pay the added charge THEN AND ONLY THEN will businesses (who have more clout) will fight city hall for THEIR survival...and the state gov't will see that tax didn't work.

The REAL problem is they all think we are an unlimited source of funding. It's their OVERSPENDING that got us into trouble. They have to be reined in.

When someone says it's ONLY 20 cents...well, chances are that 20 cents will produce dolars for business...the division is never equal to the tax...they will definitely take more to insure they get that 20 cents...the rest is gravy.

When Germany went to the Euro businesses "converted" pricing on EVERYTHING...people started complaining that products were overpriced...it took at least 6 months for them to drop prices...that's 6 months or pure profit...

 

[Aspera]

Cite your sources.

+1. It is easy to say something is true. Proving it can be challenging.

 

[Beernip]

Not sure if this has been reported but looks like HB 2461 is dead in it's current form. New proposal is only slightly less evil.
Beervana, the Blog: The 2009 Beer Tax: Daid

 

[justinh85]

I would laugh about this if it wasn't so dire. The govt always thinks they can just raise taxes to gain revenue while telling us to do with less....why don't they take their own advice? Think about it like this...

10 guys go to a bar. They decide to use the graduating scale of taxation to split the tab. The first 4 guys pay nothing (they are the most poor/lacking in funds...if you will.) The next guy pays 2 bucks. The sixth and seventh guy pay 4 bucks. The eighth and ninth guy pay 20 bucks a piece. The tenth guy pays 30 bucks for a total tab of 80 bucks.

Now, the bartender aka govt, tells them that since they are such loyal customers...he will drop the tab 20 bucks down to 60 ala tax breaks. Now they all have to decide how to split the deduction. Since the last guy paid the most, it's obvious he should reap the largest percentage of the break, so on and so forth down the line.

Now, the other fellows seeing this get mad. Guy #10 got the largest amount of money back! It's unfair! I want my fair portion, too! This goes on until you reach the last 4 people...the most poor.

"We didn't get anything back! The system only rewards the rich!!!" So now the bartender, to settle the peace, gives them a chunk of something that they paid nothing in to, to begin with.

The next day, guys 1 through 9 see guy 10. Since they are mad, they beat him up. Well, the next night for drinks, guy 10 doesn't show up. Lo and behold, guys 1-9 don't have enough money to cover even 75% of the tab.

This is what happens when you raise taxes. Those that cannot, suffer. Those that can, move. Eventually, the govt will run out of people to rob.

 

[justinh85]

That is EXACTLY my point...when consumers REFUSE to pay the added charge THEN AND ONLY THEN will businesses (who have more clout) will fight city hall for THEIR survival...and the state gov't will see that tax didn't work.

The REAL problem is they all think we are an unlimited source of funding. It's their OVERSPENDING that got us into trouble. They have to be reined in.

When someone says it's ONLY 20 cents...well, chances are that 20 cents will produce dolars for business...the division is never equal to the tax...they will definitely take more to insure they get that 20 cents...the rest is gravy.

When Germany went to the Euro businesses "converted" pricing on EVERYTHING...people started complaining that products were overpriced...it took at least 6 months for them to drop prices...that's 6 months or pure profit...

You also have to remember, businesses don't pay business taxes. Consumers do. The job of a business is to be profitable. In order to maintain profitability, they pass the tax onto consumers ala higher prices for goods and services. Thus, consumers who have witnessed stagnant wages, higher inflation, higher interest rates, and raised prices have to cut back spending. When they do this, business suffers as they no longer sell goods and services at the rate at which they previously did. Then lay-offs occur to save cost. More people out of work. Less people have disposable income to pay higher costing goods and services, thus even more people laid off to save money. So on and so forth til we fail. God save us all.