Orange Flavor missing in wort

[mm1473]

Ok--this may officially fall into the realms of a stupid question. I was really looking forward to brewing this wheat beer derivitive with a pretty intense orange flavor. The recipe is as follows:

5lb 2-row
3lb flaked wheat
1lb flaked oats
1lb flaked wheat
1/2oz cascade at 45min
1/2 oz cascade at 10min
1/2oz sweet orange peel at 15min
1/2 oz coriander at 15mins
1/2 oz sweet orange peel at 5min
1/2 oz coriander at 5mins

I was shooting for a pretty good level of orange flavor--not like drinking orange juice but pretty orangy. When I tasted the hydrometer left overs it just tasted like every other wort I have done and there was no orange taste at all--just cascade hops. Now, this is the first time I have experimented with oranges or spices and I used the dried peels from AHB. Anyway--will the orange flavor start to come out after fermentation and aging or does it sound like I need to up the orange peel/coriander for the next attempt. Anyway--like I said--probably a stupid question but I was just curious. Thanks for all the help.

 

[GASoline71]

I brew an "orange" beer for my wife and I don't add anything but corriander to the boil. Then in the primary I add orange slices, and a lot of orage peel zest (no white pith). There is a very pronounced "orange" flavor in this beer.

I'd say you're boiling away all your orange flavor.

Gary

 

[Captain Damage]

I only use the zest from citrus fruits - that's the outer, colored part of the peel without the white pith. I soak it in enough vodka to cover for 1-3 days and add the zest and the vodka to the beer after fermentation is done. Basically like a dry hop (I keep it in primary for this, but you can move it to a secondary if you want). Bottle after it's been in there for a week.

 

[shadows69]

I found if you use ale yeast you need to up the orange peal. About 3oz at 5 mins. Belgium yeast wlp400 would be about .75 oz for 5 mins. Corriandor about .50 oz for 5 mins give or take. I make a blue moon clone and that is what I have found works best for me.

 

[GASoline71]

Looking back at your recipie, the Cascades can overpower the Ornage flavor as well. Try a Noble hop like a Hallertau or a Golding. Or maybe even a Northern Brewer. Something with a more mild earthy flavor instead of the zing of grapefruit and pine from a Cascade.

Gary

 

[rorypayne]

+1 on the orange zest, I put it in at flameout plus sweet peel and coriander but if I leave out the zest I get very little "orangy" flavor.

 

[IslandLizard]

Dried orange peel takes a while to rehydrate to be able to extract flavor and aroma. So a hot steep in the wort ("spice stand") at 150-170 for 20-30 minutes maybe a better approach than boiling. A bit of circulation or whirlpooling will help with extraction.

In general I don't care much for the dried stuff and think one is better off with fresh orange peel, the zest actually. If you can get (bitter) Seville oranges (Whole Foods sometimes has them) you will forget about the prepackaged dried bitter orange peel [EDIT] alternative fast. If you include a bit of the pith you can add some subtle bitterness, which I tend to like. I noticed boiling fresh orange zest (grated or very thin slivers) changes the fragrant tones to a more earthy deeper spice-like undertone. A lowish temp steep in addition to a vodka soak added after primary, which was mentioned before, leaves more of the original orange character.

Did you crush the coriander seeds? That will give better and quicker extraction.

I haven't tried this in beer, but a slight toast on the whole coriander seeds brings out a lot more flavor. Just put in a skillet over medium heat, no oil. Toast just a bit, to turn the aromatics on not until it's light brown, like in Indian cuisine.

I have a starter ready for a Belgian Wit (WY3944) , and will incorporate these techniques.

 

[rycollier]

Try getting fresher ingredients. I get dehydrated orange peal and coriander from Penzies. The coriander is so fresh it smells like lemon zest when you grind it. With their dehydrated orange peal you put much less in, like 1/3 the amount you would freshly grated. I put 1/2 oz of each in last 5 min of boil(5gal) for a wit and I can taste hints of each. Long story short you don't know how long that stuff has been sitting around.

 

[Tomcat0304]

Dried orange peel takes a while to rehydrate to be able to extract flavor and aroma. So a hot steep in the wort ("spice stand") at 150-170 for 20-30 minutes maybe a better approach than boiling. A bit of circulation or whirlpooling will help with extraction. In general I don't care much for the dried stuff and think one is better off with fresh orange peel, the zest actually. If you can get (bitter) Seville oranges (Whole Foods sometimes has them) you will forget about the dried alternative fast. If you include a bit of the pith you can add some subtle bitterness, which I tend to like. I noticed boiling fresh orange zest (grated or very thin slivers) changes the fragrant tones to a more earthy deeper spice-like undertone. A lowish temp steep in addition to a vodka soak added after primary, which was mentioned before, leaves more of the original orange character. Did you crush the coriander seeds? That will give better and quicker extraction. I haven't tried this in beer, but a slight toast on the whole coriander seeds brings out a lot more flavor. Just put in a skillet over medium heat, no oil. Toast just a bit, to turn the aromatics on not until it's light brown, like in Indian cuisine. I have a starter ready for a Belgian Wit (WY3944) , and will incorporate these techniques.

I made an Avery White Rascal clone from the recipe on their website and it was fantastic, but I'm not above modifying it some for experimentation. I'd love to hear how this turns out!

 

[mm1473]

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone. The beer is bubbling away in the fermenter right now. I have a few oranges so I guess I will toss some zest into some vodka tomorrow and add it once fermentation is done to see if I can up the orange flavor a bit. I really appreciate the help. Have a good Christmas.

 

[shadows69]

If none of these suggestions work, and your still not getting that orange flavor, try skipping the orange peel and adding orange extract at bottle/keg time. .5oz seems to be the sweet spot for a blue moon clone from what I read. I'm doing one now to see how this works.

 

[mm1473]

I actually was going to try that to save this batch. Tried it one other time with so-so results but this time put in more peel and am letting it soak in the vodka for two weeks or until the beer is ready to bottle. We will see how it turns out. Thanks for the reply.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Did you perform a starch conversion test? Your recipe contains a huge adjunct load.

 

[shadows69]

I have two batches going of a blue moon clone. I want to see how this extract works out. From what i read the orange peel gives off a slight bitter taste no matter what kind of orange peel you use. The extract on the other hand has no bitter taste and plenty of orange flavor. Just my 2 cents from all the reading on these forums I have been doing. I have been doing weeks of it.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Looking back at your recipie, the Cascades can overpower the Ornage flavor as well. Try a Noble hop like a Hallertau or a Golding. Or maybe even a Northern Brewer. Something with a more mild earthy flavor instead of the zing of grapefruit and pine from a Cascade.

Gary

Goldings isn't a noble hop. The noble hop cultivars are Hallertau Mittelfreuh, Hersbrucker, Saaz, Spalt, and Tettnang.

 

[ianw58]

Goldings isn't a noble hop. The noble hop cultivars are Hallertau Mittelfreuh, Hersbrucker, Saaz, Spalt, and Tettnang.

Hmmm. I read that as:

Try a Noble hop such as Hallertau or [an equally fine British hop with oh so much history and character such as] a Golding. (Bits between the braces - mine)

I'm sure that GASoline71 knows what Noble hops are. Although a simply comma after Hallertau would have prevented the misinterpretation. Just sayin', GAS... LOL

RDWHAHB

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Hmmm. I read that as:

Try a Noble hop such as Hallertau or [an equally fine British hop with oh so much history and character such as] a Golding. (Bits between the braces - mine)

I'm sure that GASoline71 knows what Noble hops are. Although a simply comma after Hallertau would have prevented the misinterpretation.

While I agree that GASoline71 may have meant the latter and not the former, that's not what he wrote, which was "Try a Noble hop like a Hallertau or a Golding." A beginning brewer who knew nothing about noble hops would more than likely assume that Goldings is a noble hop after reading GASoline71's posting.

 

[Captain Damage]

 

[shadows69]

I use Hersbrucker at 60 min at 1.25oz. Only Hersbrucker no cascade because it does seem to overpower the orange as stated in the above post. Just saying.