opinions on moving from extract to all grain

[seabrew8]

This is a neat and relatively cheap system. You could use your existing kettle for sparge water.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=595987

I have a grainfather myself.

 

[Ashevillain]

What I ended up doing is getting a kettle that can be set up for ebiab. Until I save up for that upgrade I will do extract, but once I switch to all grain it will be just right for me. One vessel, cheaper ingredients, same amount of cleaning, brew inside, high level of mash control.

To me its worth going to all grain if you love brewing. But doing that ideally as far as time and space isn't as easy as extract. So I started converting little by little, all the while learning more about biab. I think the transition will be easy in the future, but until then i will just continue enjoying my extract beers and getting ready.

 

[urg8rb8]

I used to be an extract brewer until one day I woke up and decided to move to all grain. I kept my process as simple and cheap as possible. Instead of getting "fancy" with a mash tun, I just got a 10 gallon igloo cooler with a large grain bag. I think this is the best of both traditional mashing and biab worlds.

I believe that the method I use is called mash in a bag.

 

[brewbama]

That's what I do. Mash in a bag and batch sparge. "Cheap and Easy" brewing at the heart of it.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482866932.123262.jpg

 

[urg8rb8]

Yup, can't beat it!

 

[shortyz]

I started out extract then went to all grain using a strut stand 3 tier system so I didn't need a pump. Also bought a blichmann burner for the boil to speed up the brew day. Brew days were okay but my back hurt at the end of the day due to the lifting.

So, I went and bought a grainfather over a year ago and have no regrets. My back no longer hurts and the grainfather offers some set it and forget time so you can tend to other things. I still have the 3 tier system but only use it for 10 gallon batches or very high gravity brews.

Not sure where you live but it is nice to brew all grain indoors during the winter. If I had to do it all over again I would've invested in an electric system from day one.

Exactly what i did man, i live in a small apartment and the grainfather is a godsend. Its a well thought out machine and works great!

 

[ericbw]

That's what I do. Mash in a bag and batch sparge. "Cheap and Easy" brewing at the heart of it.

View attachment 382059

You guys are doing a traditional mash. The bag makes it easier to drain and clean it.

 

[Gerry_P]

My first AG batch was BIAB. My second all-grain batch was a traditional mash. Messing with the bag was more annoying to me than heating some sparge water while my grains were mashing and getting 15% higher efficiency right off the bat. I'm not sorry I tried it though, the simplicity of BIAB was the catalyst for me switching from extract to AG.

 

[MagicRat]

I started by just reading and researching for more than a year before I ever brewed but I knew I eventually wanted to do AG so decided to jump right in with both feet. It's just second nature to me now and I have no desire to do extract or BIAB. No regrets at all. After the initial outlay, I've invested very little in adding or replacing equipment. I brew once a month so a little StarSan or PBW goes a long way. My only real expense at this point is ingredients.

 

[brewbama]

You guys are doing a traditional mash. The bag makes it easier to drain and clean it.

Roger that. I recommend it for the efficiency boost and easy clean up. I've actually have to reduce grain and water to meet expected OG and volumes.

 

[Gerry_P]

I've seen many people express concern over the complexity of all-grain brewing, and many resort to BIAB because of its simplicity. I'm here to tell ya....conventional mashing ain't much harder. In fact, I prefer it. As a public service, I hired an expensive graphic design firm to create my "Super-Mega Comprehensive Guide to All-Grain Brewing: Created For Morons, By A Moron." If I come across as a condescending p***k, please keep in mind that it took me 20 years to figure this out.

 

[ericbw]

I started by just reading and researching for more than a year before I ever brewed but I knew I eventually wanted to do AG so decided to jump right in with both feet. It's just second nature to me now and I have no desire to do extract or BIAB. No regrets at all. After the initial outlay, I've invested very little in adding or replacing equipment. I brew once a month so a little StarSan or PBW goes a long way. My only real expense at this point is ingredients.

Now that you know how it all works, try an extract batch. Half the time.

 

[mongoose33]

I've seen many people express concern over the complexity of all-grain brewing, and many resort to BIAB because of its simplicity. I'm here to tell ya....conventional mashing ain't much harder. In fact, I prefer it. As a public service, I hired an expensive graphic design firm to create my "Super-Mega Comprehensive Guide to All-Grain Brewing: Created For Morons, By A Moron." If I come across as a condescending p***k, please keep in mind that it took me 20 years to figure this out.

That's my system!

The only thing I'd add--and I'm not a graphic artist so I cannot add a careful and well-designed picture--is that one can even make it simpler. I batch sparge, so after I've drained off the first runnings from the mash tun, I add 4 gallons (typically) of sparge water to the drained mash , mix it up w/ my mash paddle, and draw that off.

It's fast, it's easy, there's no hoisting of a bag, and it's easy to get most of the sugars out of the grist.

 

[RM-MN]

Now that you know how it all works, try an extract batch. Half the time.

I have a challenge for you then. I brew an all grain batch in the same or less time than most extract with steeping grains take if you follow the instructions. Figure out how I do it.

 

[ericbw]

It's been a while since you mentioned the 4 minute mash

Any mash takes longer than extract. Steep your grain as it heats, remove it at 155, add some extract at 60 and the rest at 15 or 10. Shake out grains and rinse bag. Never pause for mash or sparge.

Extract is faster than mashing because it's been mashed.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I went from extract to BIAB and now use an igloo cooler mash tun. I lucked into finding my mash tun for $10 at a yard sale and already had the bazooka screen in my kettle. Its really easy to get into BIAB and try it out. Buy the biggest hop/grain bag you can find at the brew shop and fill it with 10 lbs of grain. If you don't like it go with extract and/or find a local club brew day and check out people's setups. My local brew shop has brew days sometimes and the first one I went to I had an offer to use a Blichmann top tier to brew 10 gallons.

Cleanup of BIAB was simple to me. Flip the grain bag inside out and rinse. I just didn't really like lifting the bag out of my keggle on top of my Blichmann burner with leg extensions. Also my keg has kind of a sharp edge on it so it occasionally caught the bag.

My mash tun is easy to clean. I dump the grains into the trash, plastic grain bag they came in or the compost pile and rinse the remaining grains out. There isn't much left after dumping it and after this I add my PBW scoop and fill it with the hot water coming out of the chiller to clean everything.

As for "better, clearer beer" I don't think BIAB or a mash tun will ultimately result in this. It will come with experience and fermentation temperature control.

EDIT: As for cost, check Craigslist a lot. You'll be able to find brewing stuff depending on where you live. There is always someone getting out of the hobby or downsizing.

 

[Gerry_P]

That's my system!

The only thing I'd add--and I'm not a graphic artist so I cannot add a careful and well-designed picture--is that one can even make it simpler. I batch sparge, so after I've drained off the first runnings from the mash tun, I add 4 gallons (typically) of sparge water to the drained mash , mix it up w/ my mash paddle, and draw that off.

It's fast, it's easy, there's no hoisting of a bag, and it's easy to get most of the sugars out of the grist.

You too can be graphic artist like myself. All you need is MS Paint and about an hour to produce an elaborate chart like the one in my post. A kindergartener could have probably done it with a crayon in 30 seconds.

 

[motosapiens]

Extract is faster than mashing because it's been mashed.

buying bud lite is even fasterer, but just like extract, it's also measurably worser.

After 20 years of extract brewing, I only moved to all-grain 3 years ago when I figured out it doesn't have to be super crazy. The beer quality improved immediately, and I usually can find something to do during the wait period of the mash, like watch football, walk the dogs, make breakfast, wax skis, do dryfire practice (competitive pistol shooter), or troll the internet for people that are bad at math.

 

[Gerry_P]

buying bud lite is even fasterer, but just like extract, it's also measurably worser.

After 20 years of extract brewing, I only moved to all-grain 3 years ago when I figured out it doesn't have to be super crazy. The beer quality improved immediately, and I usually can find something to do during the wait period of the mash, like watch football, walk the dogs, make breakfast, wax skis, do dryfire practice (competitive pistol shooter), or troll the internet for people that are bad at math.

Personally I find AG to be more rewarding and worth the extra effort. Extract brewing always seemed like I was cheating a little. Actually more than a little, since mashing grains is arguably the most important part of the process and using extract cuts that out. I'm not knocking extract brewing or anything, just letting people know that if you decide to go AG you probably won't regret it.
I have a theory that some new brewers might be put off because certain parties are leading them to believe, for whatever reason, that they need an expensive, complicated AG setup to make excellent beer and that's not the case.

 

[urg8rb8]

I got my AG setup for $100 brand new equipment from retail stores. It's already paid itself off. Brewers don't realize that buying grain kernels is much cheaper than extract grain. So after a few batches, all that equipment is paid off.

 

[RM-MN]

It's been a while since you mentioned the 4 minute mash

Any mash takes longer than extract. Steep your grain as it heats, remove it at 155, add some extract at 60 and the rest at 15 or 10. Shake out grains and rinse bag. Never pause for mash or sparge.

Extract is faster than mashing because it's been mashed.

Since you didn't figure it out and are sure that extract is faster than all grain let me lay it out for you. Notice that I said that I can do an all grain as fast as extract with steeping grains if you follow the instructions. The instructions will have you steeping the grain for 30 minutes. Fine, I mash for 30 minutes so that comes out the same. I mill the grains while the water is heating so that doesn't take extra time. So far the mash and extract are taking the same time. Now add your extract. That takes time too but it is done while doing the hour long boil. I've learned that the hour long boil is to isomerize the hop oils for bittering but that 90% of that happens in the first 30 minutes. Why spend more time boiling? Because it reduces the water and drives off DMS! OK, I start with less water so I don't have so much to boil off and.....I haven't found DMS even with the short boil. YMMV Chilling does take longer because I have to chill the full volume of wort instead of just the partial that you would have with an extract batch but not a half hour longer.

Note: If you want to try the short mash period, you must have the grains milled very fine. If not, you will not get complete conversion of starch which may leave you with a starch haze in your beer and for sure will reduce the efficiency.

 

[jan_b19]

I don't know if I'd say there's a lot more equipment needed. I have a cube igloo cooler w/ a ball-valve fitted, a torpedo screen, and that's my mash tun. Probably, what, $60-80 or thereabouts? I also have a mash paddle, but I think I'd need one for BIAB as well.

That's it. I doubt the cleaning is much different than cleaning the bag. I dump out the spent grain, spray the mash tun out, and I'm done.

There's always been one element of BIAB I don't fully understand since I don't do BIAB, and that's sparging. I know some do the no-sparge method, but that leaves sugar behind. I don't like that. I want all that sugar in my wort.

OR you use 20% more grain and still have all the sugars you need after mashing.
I saw this article on BYO and never sparged again.

 

[PADave]

OR you use 20% more grain and still have all the sugars you need after mashing.
I saw this article on BYO and never sparged again.

OR crush your grains nice and fine for BIAB, do a full volume mash, get great efficiency and either reduce the amount of grains used, or use more water and make a slightly bigger batch.

 

[motosapiens]

I have a theory that some new brewers might be put off because certain parties are leading them to believe, for whatever reason, that they need an expensive, complicated AG setup to make excellent beer and that's not the case.

Agree 100%. I was certainly one of those brewers for many years that didn't want to spend the money, or learn about ph and chemistry and yadda yadda. Then one day we decided to actually steep our grains at mash temperature, and found out that the mash happens even if you don't know what you are doing, even in a pot on the stove with whatever water comes out of your tap!

It turned out to be a LOT less work and money than I ever imagined, and once you start mashing, you can learn other things incrementally and keep making your beer better.

 

[jan_b19]

OR crush your grains nice and fine for BIAB, do a full volume mash, get great efficiency and either reduce the amount of grains used, or use more water and make a slightly bigger batch.

You're not supposed to make flour you know xD
But I know what you mean. Usually I crush my grain pretty well and use my first runnings to sparge a bit. However, when you're switching from extract to grain, like the OP, I think it's plausible (well it's just a fact) that your efficiency won't be all that great on your first few runs. So, for those just starting all grain it's better to increase the grain bill slightly instead of counting on a great efficiency.
+ If you overshoot your OG it's easier to correct then when you undershoot it. Reducing your grain bill or increasing the amount of water will do just that if your efficiency is all wrong. So for those just starting BIAB I would strongly suggest to just increase your grist to water ratio a bit.

Alternatively you could sparge by removing the bag and placing it in another kettle with 160ish°F water(the sparge volume in the recipe) and do a second mash. Still ain't sparging but it works. Done it in the past with great results.

 

[NSMikeD]

I don't know if I'd say there's a lot more equipment needed. I have a cube igloo cooler w/ a ball-valve fitted, a torpedo screen, and that's my mash tun. Probably, what, $60-80 or thereabouts? I also have a mash paddle, but I think I'd need one for BIAB as well.

That's it. I doubt the cleaning is much different than cleaning the bag. I dump out the spent grain, spray the mash tun out, and I'm done.

There's always been one element of BIAB I don't fully understand since I don't do BIAB, and that's sparging. I know some do the no-sparge method, but that leaves sugar behind. I don't like that. I want all that sugar in my wort.

not sure if this was answered. BIAB is a sparging method. In a full volume mash, the mash is exposed to the strike water so all your grain should be mashing and normal conversion happening for a single step (temperature) mash. When you lift the bag and let it drain, that is your sparge. The bag filters the grain so there is no need to trickle water over the grain to help keep the wort clear.

 

[NSMikeD]

You're not supposed to make flour you know xD
But I know what you mean. Usually I crush my grain pretty well and use my first runnings to sparge a bit. However, when you're switching from extract to grain, like the OP, I think it's plausible (well it's just a fact) that your efficiency won't be all that great on your first few runs. So, for those just starting all grain it's better to increase the grain bill slightly instead of counting on a great efficiency.
+ If you overshoot your OG it's easier to correct then when you undershoot it. Reducing your grain bill or increasing the amount of water will do just that if your efficiency is all wrong. So for those just starting BIAB I would strongly suggest to just increase your grist to water ratio a bit.

Alternatively you could sparge by removing the bag and placing it in another kettle with 160ish°F water(the sparge volume in the recipe) and do a second mash. Still ain't sparging but it works. Done it in the past with great results.

these do work and it will take a few batches to find the right milling. I would add that for new BIAB brewers, to focus on a constant procedure and use a software that can truly calculate for real life BIAB.

It's important to nail down evaporation rates, absorption rates and holding your mash temperature so you can truly calculate your efficiencies and then adjust the milling (for me it was simply to have my HBS double mill).

I would come up short and my software would easily calculate how much DME I needed to add after taking a reading at pitching to fix the batch. A fairly easy fix for a low conversion. Meanwhile I could do things like look at my actual evaporation rates and grain absorption rates to see if the software defaults were good or if I needed to change them.

Now I can be pretty confident in plugging in a recipe and, so long as I don't mess up executing, hitting the numbers.

 

[ericbw]

Since you didn't figure it out and are sure that extract is faster than all grain let me lay it out for you. Notice that I said that I can do an all grain as fast as extract with steeping grains if you follow the instructions. The instructions will have you steeping the grain for 30 minutes. Fine, I mash for 30 minutes so that comes out the same. I mill the grains while the water is heating so that doesn't take extra time. So far the mash and extract are taking the same time. Now add your extract. That takes time too but it is done while doing the hour long boil. I've learned that the hour long boil is to isomerize the hop oils for bittering but that 90% of that happens in the first 30 minutes. Why spend more time boiling? Because it reduces the water and drives off DMS! OK, I start with less water so I don't have so much to boil off and.....I haven't found DMS even with the short boil. YMMV Chilling does take longer because I have to chill the full volume of wort instead of just the partial that you would have with an extract batch but not a half hour longer.



Note: If you want to try the short mash period, you must have the grains milled very fine. If not, you will not get complete conversion of starch which may leave you with a starch haze in your beer and for sure will reduce the efficiency.

Again, steep while it heats, add extract. Mash time = 0. You can't do it any faster than that.

While you're weighing your grains to mill, I'm already steeping. I'm boiling while you're mashing. Done chilling while you're boiling.

I like AG, but it's not faster.

 

[jan_b19]

these do work and it will take a few batches to find the right milling. I would add that for new BIAB brewers, to focus on a constant procedure and use a software that can truly calculate for real life BIAB.

It's important to nail down evaporation rates, absorption rates and holding your mash temperature so you can truly calculate your efficiencies and then adjust the milling (for me it was simply to have my HBS double mill).

I would come up short and my software would easily calculate how much DME I needed to add after taking a reading at pitching to fix the batch. A fairly easy fix for a low conversion. Meanwhile I could do things like look at my actual evaporation rates and grain absorption rates to see if the software defaults were good or if I needed to change them.

Now I can be pretty confident in plugging in a recipe and, so long as I don't mess up executing, hitting the numbers.

I totally agree, and because I undershot my OG because of inefficiency quite frequently when I started brewing all grain my solution was to add a bit more grain to reach it. I'm not saying it's the best method but until I figured out how to increase my efficiency it worked quite well.

But as you said in the end it might be better to stick to the recipe and see where you mess up or why your efficiency is too low. we're basically saying the same thing. The only difference is I solved the issue by adding a bit of grain to my grain bill and you solved it by adding some DME. I'm sure that in the end both of our beers were quite drinkable

Oh, btw what brewing software do you use?

 

[NSMikeD]

BIABacus. I'm setting up BeerSmith for my next brew to compare since I like the idea of the cloud letting me leave the laptop out of the kitchen.