Omega Voss Kveik: Should I Bottle?

[NobleNewt]

Hey all. I've posted some of this in the Voss Kveik yeast is a monster thread, but I'm looking for some advice. I pitched at around 82*F and the yeast went to ripping through my wort.

Unfortunately, it seems to have stalled at around 1.022 once the carboy reached room temperature (66*). I've taken all of the steps I can think of to get the yeast roused up to finish at my expected FG of 1.016, but nothing has dropped the gravity. I've gradually heated the beer and it's been at 78*+ for at least 3 or 4 days. My last hydro sample was at 81*, but still at 1.022.

I'm 1 full week from pitch.

Here's my recipe:

3.75 Gallons (ended up w/ 4.25 in the fermenter)

OG: 1.056 (Refractometer Reading @ 13.7 Brix, didn't take a hydro reading)

-6.5# Maris Otter
-12 oz. Crystal 60
-10 oz. Chocolate Malt
-8 oz. Victory Malt
-7 oz. Flaked Barley
-6 oz. Roasted Barley
-5 oz. Flaked Oats

I got 85% mash efficiency on my BIAB system which is about on par for a 60 minute mash. Also mashed high for more body @ 156*. Personally, I've never seen much of a difference mashing at higher temps with attenuation, but I also don't usually mash that high. Also used a fair amount of Crystal, Chocolate, and Roasted malts along with the classic oats and barley. My research shows that those malts should, with adequate base malts, still contribute fermentable gravity points.

Anyway.. I'm at a crossroads: do I bottle the beer still 6 gravity points from FG or let it ride for another week or so? I figured surely by now, with the warmer ferm temps I would have seen some kind of results, but this is my first experience with a Kveik and the first good tasting stout I've ever made.

If I were going strictly off of taste and perceived alcohol, I would bottle this dude right away. It's on point, but so are bottle bombs!

 

[Coffeeturnal]

I probably wouldn't risk it. I'd either pitch more Voss while it's warm, or let it cool and toss in some US-05 to finish it up.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Well, you did mash high. I’m just starting to explore the Kveik yeasts having done only 2 batches. Are they known for stalling? Mine were not particularly fast finishing, but I did see steady signs even as one batch was moved to a cooler location (different strain though).

You could add some cask yeast maybe pull a pint and do this in a mason jar to see what happens before adding to your entire batch. Just some thoughts.

 

[RainyDayBrewer]

I’d taste it. Your recipe and temperature looks like you were shooting for body and head retention. It might be just what you were looking for. Is it the rich full bodied stout you were shooting for, or is it a syrupy sweet mess? Then proceed based on taste. It could be great at 1.022.

 

[NobleNewt]

I’d taste it. Your recipe and temperature looks like you were shooting for body and head retention. It might be just what you were looking for. Is it the rich full bodied stout you were shooting for, or is it a syrupy sweet mess? Then proceed based on taste. It could be great at 1.022.

It’s everything I want it to be. Rich, malty (not sweet nor sugary), and full bodied. It’s delicious!

I think I found my answer here: http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I just don’t think I’ll see any more attenuation at this point. I’m bottle conditioning, not kegging which is why I’m leery.

Again, I never mash that high, so I’m thinking I’ve reached FG based on that Brulosophy article.

 

[NobleNewt]

Well, you did mash high. I’m just starting to explore the Kveik yeasts having done only 2 batches. Are they known for stalling? Mine were not particularly fast finishing, but I did see steady signs even as one batch was moved to a cooler location (different strain though).

You could add some cask yeast maybe pull a pint and do this in a mason jar to see what happens before adding to your entire batch. Just some thoughts.

The kveiks are a bit contentious and a lot of folks seem to have different opinions. Some say you must ferment hot, others say you don’t. Some say underpitch, some say make a starter.

I don’t think I’ve stalled, I’m more thinking it’s a function of mash temperature.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you also rouse the yeast? If it already sticks to the bottom of the vessel, not much use of hearing it up without bringing the yeast back into suspension.

 

[NobleNewt]

Did you also rouse the yeast? If it already sticks to the bottom of the vessel, not much use of hearing it up without bringing the yeast back into suspension.

I've swirled daily to attempt to get some yeast in suspension, but maybe I need to take a sanitized spoon to the bottom to actually break up the yeast cake?

 

[Samlbowles]

Well, you did mash high.

I tend to agree with Hoppy. I know you are going for a full body beer, but you are about 2-3*F high in your mash temp. I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but malt is very fickle when it comes to mash temps and fermentability. I also agree with above who said to toss in some US-05 and that should help you reach your expected FG.

I definitely would not bottle yet, go ahead and get that FG down a little bit and you should be good to go!

 

[NobleNewt]

I tend to agree with Hoppy. I know you are going for a full body beer, but you are about 2-3*F high in your mash temp. I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but malt is very fickle when it comes to mash temps and fermentability. I also agree with above who said to toss in some US-05 and that should help you reach your expected FG.

I definitely would not bottle yet, go ahead and get that FG down a little bit and you should be good to go!

Thanks! I wouldn't say I was high for my mash temp per se. I hit my target mash temp on the button. It's just a matter of did that high temp increase my expected FG. According that Brulosophy link above, it could have been all the difference. He mashed at 147 and 161 respectively and ended up with FGs of 1.005 and 1.014 respectively. That's 9 gravity points!

I could easily be 6 points high and at FG by that logic. But again, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[NobleNewt]

.

 

[NobleNewt]

Ok. Here's what I did..

First, I dropped my .01g scale so that it wouldn't weigh accurately anymore. Don't do that.

Then, I used my far less accurate kitchen scale to weigh out about 3g of table sugar and put that amount each into two 16 oz. plastic Topo Chico bottles that I typically use to bottle when I run out of flip top glass bottles. So, we'll see how they do over the next few days. If they carb up ok, then I've reached terminal gravity. If they mimic bottle bombs, then.. Well..

Secondly, much against my better judgement, I sanitized a stainless steel spoon and gently stirred my fermenter making sure to get all of the yeast cake into suspension. Naturally, if that (by some fluke) ends up lowering the gravity, then we'll know that was part of the problem.

If all of that fails to give me a reasonable result, then I'll go with the suggestion of adding some US-05 to help finish it out. Honestly, after reading the Brulosophy article, I'm inclined to think that the higher mash temperature is the reason I am where I am on this brew. Time will tell!

 

[Samlbowles]

after reading the Brulosophy article, I'm inclined to think that the higher mash temperature is the reason I am where I am on this brew.

That's exactly it, I think. The higher your mash temp, the less fermentability you have. I get the concern, because you are at a little less than 4.5% abv right now and you are trying to shoot for about 5.3%.

I did an oatmeal stout that I mashed at 156*F and never met my FG. I have read somewhere (sorry I cannot remember where, but it may have been in the book Yeast by Chris White) that for a full bodied beer you would not want to mash above ~154*F. This would help to give you that fuller, drier body while also maximizing fermentability.

This is the thing that interests me most in brewing: how something as small as 2*F can completely change the outcome of a brew. It's downright amazing when you really think about it!

I could be completely wrong, but I really do not think you will have bottle bombs at all out of this brew. You may be at your true terminal gravity. I would just make a note to mash 154*F and see if that changes the outcome on the next brew.

And if you can, let us know! I would love to know if the 2*F helps!

 

[NobleNewt]

That's exactly it, I think. The higher your mash temp, the less fermentability you have. I get the concern, because you are at a little less than 4.5% abv right now and you are trying to shoot for about 5.3%.

I did an oatmeal stout that I mashed at 156*F and never met my FG. I have read somewhere (sorry I cannot remember where, but it may have been in the book Yeast by Chris White) that for a full bodied beer you would not want to mash above ~154*F. This would help to give you that fuller, drier body while also maximizing fermentability.

This is the thing that interests me most in brewing: how something as small as 2*F can completely change the outcome of a brew. It's downright amazing when you really think about it!

I could be completely wrong, but I really do not think you will have bottle bombs at all out of this brew. You may be at your true terminal gravity. I would just make a note to mash 154*F and see if that changes the outcome on the next brew.

And if you can, let us know! I would love to know if the 2*F helps!

Thanks again for the help.

I called my LHBS yesterday. They have a brewer's hotline. I ran through everything with them and he was confident that it's reached terminal gravity and I could bottle without any issue. That said, I'm going to go ahead and bottle today or tomorrow.

What's interesting is that the beer doesn't taste sweet, it's a very dry finish. It's malty for sure, but not at all sweet. I'll definitely take your advice next time on mashing lower. I just used the pre-built Beersmith full body profile and didn't really think twice about what that particular temperature would do to the overall fermentability.

I'll post back here when the bottles carb up and let you know. FWIW, the plastic bottles I used yesterday are carbing normally.. No signs of them wanting to bust open yet!

 

[Samlbowles]

Thanks again for the help.

I just used the pre-built Beersmith full body profile and didn't really think twice about what that particular temperature would do to the overall fermentability.

No worries, and glad I could help! For the record, I did the same exact thing when I first brewed my Oatmeal Stout. I lowered the temp and won a few competitions. I think you will notice a world of difference.

At the end of the day: Relax, don't worry, Have a HomeBrew!

Cheers!

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I've had a couple hop forward IPAs finish at 1.020 and they didn't taste sweet at all. Even if this doesn't end up being one of your favorites it may be a valuable data point for you as you dial in your processes.

 

[RainyDayBrewer]

Nothing wrong with 4.5%. Sometimes it’s nice to have a wonderful beer that doesn’t leave you sluggish afterward. You are not even down to a session range yet. It’s difficult to get a low alcohol beer that drinks like a larger beer... you might even push it a degree higher with a smidge less base malt and see if you can get a session stout... just for the fun of it... or for those holiday guests that need smaller beers to be good company.

 

[NobleNewt]

I've had a couple hop forward IPAs finish at 1.020 and they didn't taste sweet at all. Even if this doesn't end up being one of your favorites it may be a valuable data point for you as you dial in your processes.

Nothing wrong with 4.5%. Sometimes it’s nice to have a wonderful beer that doesn’t leave you sluggish afterward. You are not even down to a session range yet. It’s difficult to get a low alcohol beer that drinks like a larger beer... you might even push it a degree higher with a smidge less base malt and see if you can get a session stout... just for the fun of it... or for those holiday guests that need smaller beers to be good company.

To both points, I agree! Originally, this should have been a 6.4% stout, but I decided to brew indoors on my gas stovetop and ended up with a much lower OG due to less boil off. That was actually to my liking as between planning this brew and actually brewing it I had the good pleasure to go to Dublin, Ireland and London and fell in love with the lower ABV beers over there all over again.

That said, I wasn't disappointed that my brew was going to end up in the 5.5% range and when the FG ended up even higher, that lowered the ABV to around 4.5%. I like the idea of sessionable stouts and porters or any beer really, so I'm pleased with what has come thus far. Hopefully the bottle conditioning will give it some more character.

Honestly, I could have drank this beer from the fermenter as clean and ready as it was. A lot of that is a nod to the Voss Kveik's cleanness. The sample I tasted at 48 hours was as ready to drink as any beer I've made, so that's saying something. I'll post the results of everything here in a week or two. Cheers, everyone!

 

[NobleNewt]

Just a quick update..

Chilled a bottle overnight last night and just popped it open.. So 8 days in bottles.. Slightly carbonated, but still a ways to go. Don't think bottle bombs are much of a risk at this point. I would have expected some gushing or over-carbonation by now, but seems like normal bottle conditioning to me.. Anyway..

Cheers and Happy New Year, all!

 

[NobleNewt]

Finally got down to my last 6-or-so bottles. They've gotten a little overcarbed, so looks like there may have been a few gravity points still to go but no bombs for sure.

 

[dwhite60]

Glad this worked out.

If your thermometer reads a couple degrees low you could have been even at mashing at 158F. Everything has some tolerance to it.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[mongoose33]

I'm kind of late to the party here but....a few thoughts on all this.

1. How does the beer taste?

2. If I'm doing the math correctly, you have 10.5# of grain, but of that, something like 2.5# of grain with no diastatic power; at lower mash temps the 2-row should have enough to convert those grains, but when you mash at 156, you accelerate the denaturing of B-amylase, which will result in a higher finishing gravity.

For fun, sometimes mash at 148 and see the difference. I've been playing with step mashing a bit, starting at 132-138 for 10 or 15 minutes, then ramping to 149 (Kolsch is the style). I tend to overbuild the malts a bit and focus on flavor, and when i do this mash schedule I get a low FG as expected, but a wonderful tasty beer with a dryish finish. <smack lips>

3. I've done two beers with Kveik Hothead yeast, and there was a tailing off of fermentation toward the end both times. It looked last time like it was done at 1.012, but ended at 1.010 (this according to the TILT hydrometer). So you may have gotten some more out of it by stirring the yeast as you did. Did you check gravity after that?

4. I'm very intrigued by the Kveik yeast. I want to brew something with this yeast at fermentation temps around 90 degrees to see how that works. My son has done some brewing with Voss, at high temps, and it was delicious. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have spent all that money on fermentation temperature control.

 

[NobleNewt]

I'm kind of late to the party here but....a few thoughts on all this.

1. How does the beer taste?

It was great! Clean, malty, roasty. Really tasty beer.

2. If I'm doing the math correctly, you have 10.5# of grain, but of that, something like 2.5# of grain with no diastatic power; at lower mash temps the 2-row should have enough to convert those grains, but when you mash at 156, you accelerate the denaturing of B-amylase, which will result in a higher finishing gravity.

Yeah, I realized all of that well after the fact. I never mash that high, but it's what BeerSmith called for on the "full body" mash profile. More research indicated it may have been a little too high to get the conversion I wanted.

For fun, sometimes mash at 148 and see the difference. I've been playing with step mashing a bit, starting at 132-138 for 10 or 15 minutes, then ramping to 149 (Kolsch is the style). I tend to overbuild the malts a bit and focus on flavor, and when i do this mash schedule I get a low FG as expected, but a wonderful tasty beer with a dryish finish. <smack lips>

I mashed my most recent batch at 150 and it fell to 147 over the course of the hour mash. Voss took that one down from 1.053 to 1.012 in about 48 hours. I've applied heat to get it to finish out closer to 1.009.

3. I've done two beers with Kveik Hothead yeast, and there was a tailing off of fermentation toward the end both times. It looked last time like it was done at 1.012, but ended at 1.010 (this according to the TILT hydrometer). So you may have gotten some more out of it by stirring the yeast as you did. Did you check gravity after that?

Yeah, I checked gravity pretty much daily after the first 48 hours and got virtually no change no matter the heat application or agitation. My most recent batch mentioned above, however, actually visually started fermenting when I heated and swirled. It kicked back up for about 24 hours but has since subsided. Took a gravity reading on Thursday, dry hopped Friday, and I'll take another gravity reading on Sunday to see where it is. If it's hit FG, then I'll likely bottle. May end up leaving it for another few days even if it has hit FG to give the dry hops a few more days.

I've learned that even though Omega says the temperature range for it's Voss is 62-98 (or whatever the high temp is), that yeast absolutely SLOGS along when it drops into the 60s. The lesson to be learned is to keep ferm. temps up throughout primary in order to reduce the chances of a big slow down/stall.

4. I'm very intrigued by the Kveik yeast. I want to brew something with this yeast at fermentation temps around 90 degrees to see how that works. My son has done some brewing with Voss, at high temps, and it was delicious. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have spent all that money on fermentation temperature control.

I'm looking forward to summer when I can just leave the fermenter outside and let the ambient air keep temps up!

 

[NobleNewt]

Glad this worked out.

If your thermometer reads a couple degrees low you could have been even at mashing at 158F. Everything has some tolerance to it.

All the Best,
D. White

Yeah, you're right. I know now that my mash thermometer isn't as accurate as I thought originally. I have a Fieldpiece probe thermometer that I carry in my pocket at work and it read 2-4 degrees different from my digital meat thermometer I use for mashing.

Despite the higher mash temperature, I didn't necessarily perceive more body in this beer. There seems to be a bit of controversy surrounding whether or not mash temperature affects mouthfeel/body. I'm more in the camp (after this experience) that your grain bill makes more difference in mouthfeel than mash temp. Yes, my beer had body and mouthfeel but I can't honestly say it was due to my mash temp as much as the flaked grains.

 

[mongoose33]

It was great! Clean, malty, roasty. Really tasty beer.



Yeah, I realized all of that well after the fact. I never mash that high, but it's what BeerSmith called for on the "full body" mash profile. More research indicated it may have been a little too high to get the conversion I wanted.



I mashed my most recent batch at 150 and it fell to 147 over the course of the hour mash. Voss took that one down from 1.053 to 1.012 in about 48 hours. I've applied heat to get it to finish out closer to 1.009.



Yeah, I checked gravity pretty much daily after the first 48 hours and got virtually no change no matter the heat application or agitation. My most recent batch mentioned above, however, actually visually started fermenting when I heated and swirled. It kicked back up for about 24 hours but has since subsided. Took a gravity reading on Thursday, dry hopped Friday, and I'll take another gravity reading on Sunday to see where it is. If it's hit FG, then I'll likely bottle. May end up leaving it for another few days even if it has hit FG to give the dry hops a few more days.

I've learned that even though Omega says the temperature range for it's Voss is 62-98 (or whatever the high temp is), that yeast absolutely SLOGS along when it drops into the 60s. The lesson to be learned is to keep ferm. temps up throughout primary in order to reduce the chances of a big slow down/stall.



I'm looking forward to summer when I can just leave the fermenter outside and let the ambient air keep temps up!

I struggled, with the most recent one I brewed using Kveik Hothead, to keep the temp up. My garage at this time of year is 40-45 degrees. I have a spike CF10 with temp control including a neoprene sleeve, but it just couldn't get the temp above about 70. I put a trouble light under it to provide additional heat, covered with a moving blanket....got it to 75. That was it.

I felt like I cheated the yeast somehow.

I'm looking forward to summer as well when I can easily get this Kveik yeast to 90 degrees or higher.

 

[NobleNewt]

I struggled, with the most recent one I brewed using Kveik Hothead, to keep the temp up. My garage at this time of year is 40-45 degrees. I have a spike CF10 with temp control including a neoprene sleeve, but it just couldn't get the temp above about 70. I put a trouble light under it to provide additional heat, covered with a moving blanket....got it to 75. That was it.

I felt like I cheated the yeast somehow.

I'm looking forward to summer as well when I can easily get this Kveik yeast to 90 degrees or higher.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. If I were using a typical US-05, my home's "room temperature" would make for a clean, crisp ale. Some brewers would cringe at my method for heating my fermenter.. I put a heating pad underneath it and turn it on high. *gasp*

It gets the liquid up into the 70s after about 24 hours. Once there, I can dial the heating pad back to medium to maintain some warmth. Not sure if I would try it with a lesser yeast, but for Voss it hasn't been a problem.