Old liquid yeast need starter?

[Pyg]

Bought a pack of WLP028 Scottish ale yeast.
I intended to brew tonight. Just looked at the yeast- it indicated “best by July 19 2018”

Had a brain fart at LHBS did not pick up DME for a starter. So used to using dry yeast or imperial, with out starters.


Can I still brew today & just pitch the old yeast into the wort? (I have nothing at home to make a starter)
Or should I make a run out to LHBS and get some dme, make a starter and brew tomorrow?

 

[RM-MN]

I'm of the opinion that the yeast, if stored properly, is much more hardy than the calculators assume. If your yeast has live cells it will ferment given the best opportunity to do so but your lag time may be longer as it needs to build up the cell count. Make sure to oxygenate the wort well.

 

[glienhard]

The biggest issue I can think of is stressing the yeast by under pitching. There are probably still plenty of good viable yeast but they would do best if you were to make a starter. Even if you could put off pitching and allow a starter to go for 24hrs it would be better than not. If you do end up pitching the way it is, I'd be curious to hear how the beer turns out. Cheers!

 

[kh54s10]

I too think that the calculators calculate viability lower that reality. I also think it is fresh enough to ferment the beer fairly easily. But even fresh I make a starter for any beer over 1.040 OG Most calculators will look for around 200 billion cells for a 1.060 beer. Most yeast packages only contain about 100 billion cells the day they are packaged. Cells start dying right away.

I might go with it or wait depending on when my next possible brew date would be.

 

[Calder]

It will be a severe under-pitch, but it will still work. just make sure you have done everything you can to keep the wort sanitized and minimized chance of infection, and you should make beer.

It will be slow to start, 24 , or even 48 hours to show something, but it will ferment.

Effects of under-pitching; go do some research. I think the biggest is worry that the wort you just spent hours creating will be ruined if it doesn't start. The others are hit and miss, depending on the beer and environment, such as low attenuation, higher alcohols, and unwanted yeast flavors, and probably more.

But ..... if the OG is not too high (above 1.050), I wouldn't give these issues a second thought.

 

[Pyg]

LHBS talked me into pitching.
Said the yeast would be a slow start, but should be fine.

However, I overshot my SG. Hit 1.068.
If I don’t get any action in 24 hours, I will grab another vial and pitch again!

Edit: 12 hours after pitch and no activity.
Uh-Oh!

 

[Pyg]

It will be a severe under-pitch, but it will still work. just make sure you have done everything you can to keep the wort sanitized and minimized chance of infection, and you should make beer.

It will be slow to start, 24 , or even 48 hours to show something, but it will ferment.

Effects of under-pitching; go do some research. I think the biggest is worry that the wort you just spent hours creating will be ruined if it doesn't start. The others are hit and miss, depending on the beer and environment, such as low attenuation, higher alcohols, and unwanted yeast flavors, and probably more.

But ..... if the OG is not too high (above 1.050), I wouldn't give these issues a second thought.

I guess my question is, how do you avoid going defcon 5 after 24 hours and adding new yeast.

I put too much effort into the boil and want to salvage.
Can I pitch new yeast after 48 hours?
Should I reboil to be in the safe side before pitching more yeast?
(This is all assuming I wake up tomorrow and fermentation has not started )

 

[balrog]

How are you determining fermentation "not started"? Do you see foam or krausen? Don't rely on airlock activity for nuttin. I'd definitely wait until 36hr before considering hitting the panic button. And you can always add yeast, no boiling required.

 

[Pyg]

How are you determining fermentation "not started"? Do you see foam or krausen? Don't rely on airlock activity for nuttin. I'd definitely wait until 36hr before considering hitting the panic button. And you can always add yeast, no boiling required.

You got me, going strictly by the air lock. Usually within 12 hours the bucket lid is convexing.
Right now the bucket lid is concaved and nothing is going on.
I can wait it out.

 

[z-bob]

Has anyone tried using bottled apple juice and yeast nutrient instead of DME to make a starter with weak yeast? Might have to dilute it a little to get an appropriate gravity. It's acidic, and the sugars are simpler, so it might be easier for the yeast to take hold. (that's my theory, anyway) Use DME when you step it up.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've certainly used UHT apple juice with a dab of Marmite for "normal" starters - I think apple juice is typically 1.050-ish so 50:50 dilution might be appropriate as a first step for "weak" yeast.

 

[Calder]

You boiled everything!

You sanitized everything!

If you delayed pitching, your wort would probably be fine for 24 or even 36 hours.

I've been there (many of us have been there), where if we look rationally, there is absolutely nothing to worry about, and the wort is in a sealed container and well sanitized ..... but fermentation has not started. We all worry if we did something wrong, even (as in your case) we know it will take a while. We know it will take a while, and we worry because it is taking a while!!!!!

Relax, it is going to be fine. I'm making starters with 2+ year old yeast and have never failed yet. It will go.

 

[balrog]

It will go.

Yeah. Just try and stop it.

 

[Iseneye]

LHBS talked me into pitching.
Said the yeast would be a slow start, but should be fine!

That's because they probably sold you a pack of old yeast for full price and don't want to re-imburse you. My LHBS tried the same thing on me and I told them that I'm not using that yeast - get me the fresher packs at the back.

 

[Pyg]

That's because they probably sold you a pack of old yeast for full price and don't want to re-imburse you. My LHBS tried the same thing on me and I told them that I'm not using that yeast - get me the fresher packs at the back.

Yep.
And since they are the only real LHBS, I can complain, but that is it.
So worst case scenario-if the yeast doesn’t start up I can
A-go back to the LHBS and buy another tube of the same yeast
B-use the pack of Nottingham I have in the fridge!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I have pitched "expired" yeast, (a few months really isn't much to worry about if it was stored properly) and it can be slow to start. You have a higher gravity wort guessing is is a 5-6 gallon batch, so one pack would be a little bit of an under pitch.

 

[Pyg]

I have pitched "expired" yeast, (a few months really isn't much to worry about if it was stored properly) and it can be slow to start. You have a higher gravity wort guessing is is a 5-6 gallon batch, so one pack would be a little bit of an under pitch.

Spoke to LHBS they suggested checking the wort for activity and raising the temp.
No activity in the wort and temp was 72F.
According to white labs the optimum temp for this strain is 64-70.
I am going to have to grab a new vial of yeast, make a starter and dump in.

 

[Calder]

I suspect it will be going in the next 24 hours. I'd recommend bring the wort back into optimum temp range. Once the yeast gets going, it will be hard to get the temp back down (but .... I don't know what equipment you have, and this may not be an issue).

I assume you pitched late Sunday, so it has been about 48 hours. Many people say you should wait 72 hours until deciding to do anything. Give it another day.

Have faith, it will go.

 

[501irishred]

Wow, I believe I’d be taking that vial with me while getting new yeast! “Most” reputable shops would gladly give you another, especially since they recommended pitching!

 

[Pyg]

Wow, I believe I’d be taking that vial with me while getting new yeast! “Most” reputable shops would gladly give you another, especially since they recommended pitching!

Unfortunately I threw out both the vial and receipt.
The clerks at the LHBS said, after I mentioned the expiration date, “we probably sold it to you at a reduced price”.
I cut him off laughing and a “no”.
But it is what it is.

Edit: just checked and as of 6:53 am, we have some bubbling in the air lock.
Very slow, but bubbling. The kid is convex so something has started.
However, I still have determined that due to the age of the yeast and the starting gravity, I have under pitched.
Would it still be beneficial to add another vial if yeast?