North Country Malt Group to stop selling to homebrewers

[Austinhomebrew]

$15 an hour?

not to get to off topic, but arent there places available cheaper than NCM available to homebrew stores. ithink what i a lot people were getting at is the huge price difference between NCM and other stores

North country is not a homebrew store. They are a wholesaler to homebrew stores. You can't compare prices between a homebrew store and where the homebrew store buys their items to sell.

Let's say Home depot buys a drill from Ryobi for $50 and sells it for $90. You have the hook up and you are able to buy directly from Ryobi for $50. Home Depot has to buy them, recieve them, stock them, pay the employees, advertise, etc. You can't compare the wholesale price with a retail price.

Forrest

P.S. Yes $15 per hour. I pay my employees well and the 25 cents per minute covers the employees wage, comission, 401k matching, paid vacation, my half of the federal income tax, FICA, and medicaid. It doesn't include any profit.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I somewhat understand the costs of a HBS and don't think most of them overcharge for the most part. But like anybody I still like saving money and like avoiding any extra middleman if I can.

I wonder if HBS could (or do) consider some items as loss leaders? You'd think that the homebrewers buying grain by the 55# sack would be the ones doing the most brewing and thus will buy more of all the other stuff. So maybe you make less per lb of grain on that particular customer but they buy so much yeast/hops/supplies that it makes up for it. There is still a LOT of supplies/equipment needed and it seems the last thing you'd want is the higher-volume brewers going elsewhere.

It still doesn't save me that much after all the shipping cost, but $57 delivered to my door is reasonable and def easy. Got a sack of Canadian Pale on the way now (just bought a sack of Pils a couple weeks ago).

 

[Airborneguy]

I have to agree with Forrest here, especially since he takes a hit on shipping to keep web orders affordable. They are providing a service (putting all the products together in one place), and that business has costs. I've been ordering from him lately because even with shipping, he can still beat my homebrew shop on somethings. There is a lot of choice for consumers in this hobby. If you feel like you are getting ripped off, you probably aren't looking hard enough at your options.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I somewhat understand the costs of a HBS and don't think most of them overcharge for the most part. But like anybody I still like saving money and like avoiding any extra middleman if I can.

I wonder if HBS could (or do) consider some items as loss leaders? You'd think that the homebrewers buying grain by the 55# sack would be the ones doing the most brewing and thus will buy more of all the other stuff. So maybe you make less per lb of grain on that particular customer but they buy so much yeast/hops/supplies that it makes up for it. There is still a LOT of supplies/equipment needed and it seems the last thing you'd want is the higher-volume brewers going elsewhere.

It still doesn't save me that much after all the shipping cost, but $57 delivered to my door is reasonable and def easy. Got a sack of Canadian Pale on the way now (just bought a sack of Pils a couple weeks ago).

Actually, the people that buy bags of grain often reculture their yeast, buy thier hops directly, and already have thier equipment. They already go somewhere else. I can't sell grain for way less then it cost me. I am sure you understand.

The extract brewers brew the most and buy the most.

I am all for customers buying whatever they need from where ever they get the best deal.

It cost me 70 cents a pound to ship grain. I ship it to you for free if you order over $100. It already is a loss leader for me at $1.15 per pound.

If you are able to buy grain way below my cost you should go for it.

Forrest

 

[jezter6]

I'm going to agree with Forrest on this one. I know homebrewers are a frugal bunch and want to get max productivity at minimal cost almost as if we were commercial breweries, but the fact is even paying LHBS higher prices, your beer is still super cheap in comparison to buying a lot of commercial beer.

Also, think about what else your LHBS has to offer. They have the guy who will sample your beer and give feedback, talk you through some recipe questions last second, provides a place for "n00bs" to stop in and learn about the hobby and start brewing, and all the other ingredients you may need last minute. That all costs them money, and frankly like Forrest says, isn't a huge profit business unless they really are price gouging and have customers willing to pay the price.

If you don't have a LHBS or your local one(s) is far overpriced and the guy behind the counter is a ****** - then yes, order somewhere else. But for those of us that have decent shops, and think long term about the hobby and enjoy the ability to have a shop nearby to get last minute ingredients or replace a lost bung in an emergency - you have to support your shop, or he's going to end up out of business and then the amount of options we have as homebrewers will start to dwindle, and it'll end up near impossible to get.

 

[samc]

It's almost impossible to convince people who never ran a business what is actually involved in doing so. Most LHBS's are much smaller than Austin so they can't logically order a pallet of 2 row and have it sit on the floor taking up space. It would sit for a long time before it ever got sold. Floor space = rent, capital tied up in buying the pallet of grain = opportunity costs that could be tied up in other more profitable or fluidly moving items.

I cringe every time I read someone saying that they are being ripped off by paying $60 for a bag of grain, 100% mark up in retail on a bulky slow moving item is nothing.

I used to get customers in one of my businesses complaining about having to pay 6 cents for a xerox copy when they could travel 8 miles across a bridge in heavy traffic and get the same copy for 3 cents. My stock answer was go for it !! (and get the @#@$ out of my store! - LOL)

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I know homebrewers are a frugal bunch and want to get max productivity at minimal cost almost as if we were commercial breweries, but the fact is even paying LHBS higher prices, your beer is still super cheap in comparison to buying a lot of commercial beer.

I agree with almost all of your post but if we are going to add up 'all' costs (which is what the HBS's are doing to make their point) then once we add in all of the labor we put into it we aren't even close to saving money. Since $15/hr apparently is the 'going rate' let's just add $15 per hour we spend on each batch (not just brewing it but racking/kegging/bottling/maintenance/i.e. everything) and then consider how much we 'save'. This isn't really pertinent to the topic...just sayin'.

But considering we do get 'product' from it; my typical response is that it's still cheaper than golf (or many other hobbies).

 

[jezter6]

What led me to my post was going down to the LHBS on Saturday to get ingredients, and I went back into the grain room and saw just an ungodly amount of grain. Buckets and tubs of EVERY malt, all on hand to make whatever I wanted. It was just a beautiful sight, and I was happy that I had someone else willing to hold all that grain (because I don't have the room for that many bags and tubs at home) and have just what i need available instead of having tons of 2row sitting around and then going (sort of sacrilegiously) back to the store for just a few ounces of malt I don't keep at home.

I love my LHBS, and I'm willing to support him. Not only am I a happy customer, I talked to him about this thread and he was happy that I was willing to pay a little more for the service he provided instead of trying to put him out of business.

He did say he sold the Wyeast packs at a loss, so I'm glad I bought a bunch of grain with my yeast, otherwise I'd just be a negative drain on his budget.

 

[FromZwolle]

my lhbs is five minutes from my work, mcm is ten minutes from work. the lhbs doesn't sell sacks, and their grain choices are a little limited. Add to that, the guys that work at the lhbs are noob brewers, therefore can't really give a whole lot of brewing/ingredient advice. i want to support the local guys, but really can't afford to pay their malt prices, so i split it up by bulk ordering from mcm and getting the rest from the local shop.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I have three of those cheapo tubs they sell @ Home Depot and that holds enough grain so that I can brew anything I want at a moments notice. And that's usually including two full 55# sacks in those tubs. It doesn't take up that much room but I do place an online order every couple of months or so and it's not like I keep everything under the sun on-hand (I tend to keep using the same malts).

But I'm in the boat you mentioned above: 45 min. drive each way, store owners are jerks, store is not well maintained/cleaned, prices are high, selection is low, and a few other things.

 

[jezter6]

Spanish,

You're right, you're in that slightly different group. And i've done the cheapo tubs and had 6 of them full of various grain like 2 row, wheat, munich, etc. But what happens when you want to brew this weekend and the recipe you found calls for 3oz of Biscuit, and 5 oz of Crystal? Either you pay shipping for 8 oz of malt, or you go to a LHBS that's fully stocked and there for you. If you rely on the LHBS for that 8oz, then put him out of business by buying bulk elsewhere, it seems a bit hypocritical to me if you want that guy to be around next time you need something.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

If a small homebrew store sells their items at a higher price it is because they have to in order to stay in business. It is an economy of scale. The smaller you are the more you pay for everything.

Forrest

 

[jezter6]

And, if you support them, and help them grow ... maybe it will change that scale in your favor down the road!

Support your HBS! (I took out the L because not everyone has one local, and if not, use a great vendor that supports HomeBrewTalk).

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Spanish,

You're right, you're in that slightly different group. And i've done the cheapo tubs and had 6 of them full of various grain like 2 row, wheat, munich, etc. But what happens when you want to brew this weekend and the recipe you found calls for 3oz of Biscuit, and 5 oz of Crystal? Either you pay shipping for 8 oz of malt, or you go to a LHBS that's fully stocked and there for you. If you rely on the LHBS for that 8oz, then put him out of business by buying bulk elsewhere, it seems a bit hypocritical to me if you want that guy to be around next time you need something.

I have a couple pounds each of several crystal/caramunich malts and Carafa/Chocolate/Pale chocolate/Roast Barley plus fives of pounds of Honey/Biscuit/Aromatic/Dark Munich/Wheat plus plus tens of pounds of Vienna/Munich in addition to bulk Pils/Pale malts. Plus some carapils, flaked grains, sauer malt, etc oddball stuff. That pretty much covers everything I brew. I order on a fairly regular basis so it's pretty easy to stay stocked and virtually never find myself needing a specialty grain (I brew almost every weekend).

I virtually never use the LHBS but if there were one I liked I would.

 

[jezter6]

Holy crap man. Maybe you ARE the LHBS

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

Not to belabor the point made well by others, but unless you run a retail brick and mortar business, you really have no understanding of how difficult or expensive it is. The smaller you are the tougher it is, but being bigger requires a LOT more capitol so is out of reach for most. Did you ever stop to think why the failure or closure rate for most stores (not to mention home brew shops) is so high? It's because they cost a lot more time and money to run than most people think. They either go bankrupt or figure out they can make a lot more money working some meaningless job than they can owning a store.

I'd love to have a full service home brew store here. A few places (a grocery store and a wine/beer shop carry a SMALL amount of stuff. It's better than nothing, but if I need more than 1-2# of anything I'm out of luck, and the hops are never stored in a fridge either.

 

[robertbartsch]

I ordered 50lbs of DME from them a few weeks back and the web page was not freindly to homebrewers. Finally, I had to call them on the phone and ask them to take my order.

This kinda blows since my local brew store sells the same DME at 5X the price.

 

[robertbartsch]

My local brew store is not well stocked. Last weekend I went there and they had no DME and no fementing buckets. Their grains were minimal and I would not be able to create a bill for a particular receipe from their inventory. Yeh, they have two dozen kits that appear to move regularly, some yeast and hops and a few minor tools.

Their prices are very high but they are convenient - about 20 minutes away.

So if I need stuff for a recipe, I would have to order it on-line and incurr shipping costs.

If I am going to do that, I am going to shop for a rock bottom price and CountryMaltGroup fit that need.

 

[lamarguy]

FWIW, my LHBS strikes a very reasonable compromise between profit, cost, and supporting all-grain brewers who purchase in bulk.

The rules are simple:

1. Place your whole bag order by Wednesday of every week. No milling, partial bags, etc.
2. Pickup the grain the following Wednesday.
3. Pay $10 over the LHBS's cost (grain + shipping).

The store makes a profit (including cost reduction from tier discounts), the customer pays a reasonable price, and everyone is happy.

Forrest, you might consider instituting a similar program...

 

[Bobby_M]

How did this get into a discussion about how hard it is to run a business? It's totally besides the point. Great, business are hard work, many fail. In no way does it suggest that people should pay $15-20 more per sack if they don't have to. My closest HBS wants $65 a sack of Maris and that is WITH my club discount. No, I think I'll get it from NCM for $40 shipped to my town.

Frankly, I wouldn't sell full sacks at a bulk price if I have to do more than point to it on the floor over there. Milling? You're back up near retail lb price.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

The problem was people comparing homebrew store prices with the place that homebrew stores buy the grain. Can't compare. You should buy from where you get the best deal.
Homebrew stores marking up grain from thier cost is not gouging.
/summary

Forrest

 

[Airborneguy]

My closest HBS wants $65 a sack of Maris and that is WITH my club discount. No, I think I'll get it from NCM for $40 shipped to my town.

Any chance of a North Jersey bulk buy soon?

I'm hoping to have a location in a month or so, but for now, nothing.

 

[smokinghole]

I hope none of you guys smoke cigars. They're all marked up at least 40%. I know you all drink beer. That stuff has some serious markups, and distilled spirits....whoa man.

My HBS sells Muntons MO for $70 a sack. It's more than what I could have bought MO at NCM for but I'm not going to cry about it. I already figure making the brews I do I'm saving cash over buying the professional equivalent. I buy my pound here and there of specialty malts there because that I don't buy in bulk. So for the convenience of the large yeast selection, hop selection, specialty malt selection and anything else I could almost want at the store, I'll support them. I know some of you guys have a ****ty HBS near you with a poor selection and high prices but HBS are not Walmart. They do not have the buying power to make $.05 on each unit and remain profitable as a business.

I know that the two HBS that I frequent one gets a weekly shipment of supplies through LD Carlson I do believe. If I ask for a sack of grain he puts it on his order list and it comes in. The other store buys in a larger quantity but I'm not sure they order 42 sack pallets. Besides unless I did a pallet group purchase a sack of Muntons MO from NCM was like $40 plus like $25 or so shipping. So I save $5 to not support my local HBS which doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[jezter6]

The problem was people comparing homebrew store prices with the place that homebrew stores buy the grain. Can't compare. You should buy from where you get the best deal.
Homebrew stores marking up grain from thier cost is not gouging.
/summary

Forrest

I don't think most people understand how much grain the HBS buys and just assumes that they're getting some 4000# or 8000# discounts marks for buying so much. They're assuming that if we're getting it for $30/bag that the HBS must be getting it for $20 or less.

I'm sure you wouldn't be able to give out your numbers (that and you're not the normal "LHBS"), but I think most people would be truly astonished to see the amount of grain going in and out of a store and markups on most items.

 

[Bobby_M]

My motto is to go ahead and markup as high as the market will bear. Gouging can only really be done on an essential item that no one has alternative source for.

 

[jeffmeh]

My motto is to go ahead and markup as high as the market will bear. Gouging can only really be done on an essential item that no one has alternative source for.

Agreed. If the buyer does not like the price, do not buy. If the seller does not like the offer, do not sell. That is how markets work, and how prices are set. Unless, of course, the government screws it up by setting prices or creating monopolies.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I think the error comes when people assume that since they can buy the grain at cost they assume homebrew stores get it for less than cost. And anyone charging over cost is gouging. There are also people that think that because I give free shipping I must get free shipping from UPS.

Forrest

 

[pickles]

This thread reminds me of that song that Lambchop sings

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

\
It cost me 70 cents a pound to ship grain. I ship it to you for free if you order over $100. It already is a loss leader for me at $1.15 per pound.

Forrest

So if I buy two 50lb bags of grain, it costs you $70 in shipping. So with the free shipping you are just getting about $15-25 a bag for the grain. I don't see how you can continue doing that with those kind of losses.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

So if I buy two 50lb bags of grain, it costs you $70 in shipping. So with the free shipping you are just getting about $15-25 a bag for the grain. I don't see how you can continue doing that with those kind of losses.

It is a loss leader. When you give away shipping, the heavy but inexpensive items are a drain. It all works out but a slim margin.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Frankly, I wouldn't sell full sacks at a bulk price if I have to do more than point to it on the floor over there.

This does seem to be at least a small issue, IIRC Austin Homebrew sells their 'bulk' grain in 40 lb sacks that it appears they have to bag (maybe they buy the 100kg 'sacks'?). When I buy from NCM (or Midwest) I get a 55 lb sack that appears to have come from the maltster.

I like the set-up lamarguy mentioned earlier itt. That's a nice option to have.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I tried selling 55 pound bags and they didn't sell well. I found a good sturdy box and it ended up holding 40 pounds of grain. Now the 40 pounders sell really fast. When you place an order we open a bag weigh out 40 pounds and put the 15 pounds left over in the bin we pull from to put recipes together. The 40 pounders are not made up in advance and it is the freshest grain we have in the building.

Forrest

 

[CMG]

The Country Malt Group which includes both Mid Country and North Country has purchased Brewcraft. Both locations will continue to sell to homebrewers and/or clubs if they are existing customers, new customers will be directed to BrewCraft.

Long & Short of it, if you have placed orders in the past you can place orders in the future. Nothing for you has changed except you will need to call or email your orders in.

 

[jturie]

My LHBS is run by a great guy, a serious AG brewer who caters to the AG crowd. He will sell me a 55lb sack at minimum markup and then will mill the grain for me on-demand. I just weigh out what I need, drive 25 minutes, and he mills it up. Since I usually need yeast, hops, crystal, etc., I have to drive there anyway. Oh yeah, his shop is 2 minutes from Victory Brewing, so I grab my growler and eat lunch at the pub. It's all good.

Even if his price is 50 bucks a sack, I'm saving a ton by not having to buy a grain mill.

He gets my support.

 

[speedyox]

The Country Malt Group which includes both Mid Country and North Country has purchased Brewcraft. Both locations will continue to sell to homebrewers and/or clubs if they are existing customers, new customers will be directed to BrewCraft.

Long & Short of it, if you have placed orders in the past you can place orders in the future. Nothing for you has changed except you will need to call or email your orders in.

This is true. I placed an order this week and specifically confirmed that I could order in the future.

 

[TheMan]

This is true. I placed an order this week and specifically confirmed that I could order in the future.

Sweet, thanks for confirming this.

 

[Reelale]

This is true. I placed an order this week and specifically confirmed that I could order in the future.

Of course, it's true. Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. CMG = Country Malt Group, headquartered in Champlain, NY.

 

[northernlad]

I ordered 50lbs of DME from them a few weeks back and the web page was not freindly to homebrewers. Finally, I had to call them on the phone and ask them to take my order.

This kinda blows since my local brew store sells the same DME at 5X the price.

Price, Selection, or Service. You can't have all three.

 

[robtotten]

I just (as in last night) ordered four pounds of hops from them. It was my first order. Guess I made the cut!

 

[kornbread]

I'm waiting on a couple of 55 lb sacks from our club's pallet order ($35 - $39.)

I still go to my LHBS and get specialty grains, yeast, hops, etc. I spend a ton of money there each year. I'm sure I'm paying at least 100% mark-up and I'm OK with that because I want the guy to make a buck and be in buisness the next time I need some supplies.

However, I don't buy my base malts from them in bulk because they are just too damn expensive. Every time I've checked he's charging $75 - $79 per sack.

As far as North Country is concerned, I don't have a problem with them not selling to homebrewers if it's because they don't feel it's profitable for them to package and ship small orders.

But, if it's because of pressure from home brew supply shops.... that would really suck! And I personally would never shop at any store that I knew had a part in closing this source of supplies to the homebrew community.