No more coffee stouts in California?

[brewtus_]

According to California Senate Bill 39, there is a new law that starts January 1, 2012 that states "... the import, production, manufacture, distribution, or sale of beer to which caffeine has been directly added as a separate ingredient at retail locations within the state" is prohibited.

Does this mean that beers infused with coffee will no longer be able to be brewed or bought/sold in California? To me, no (not yet), since the caffeine is not being added directly as caffeine, but only as an adjunct from the coffee itself. Is this the case or is any beer containing caffeine now going to be banned?

The problem that I think will be pressing (as with every other stupid law that gets enacted) is when the courts start determining what the phrase"... to which caffeine has been directly added as a separate ingredient..." means. How about chocolate in beer?

When do the legislators then start determining maximum limits of caffeine in beer? Is it 100 ppm, 500 ppm, 1000 ppm or some other arbitrary amount? Slippery slope starting right here.

 

[cl330b]

I hope that only means they will have to stop selling those caffeinated malt liquor beverages. They shouldn't be able to take away our delicious stout! WTF CA!!

 

[Phunhog]

I live in CA and the way it was explained to me is that it only affects beverages that directly add caffeine. It does not include coffee or even chocolate that do contain caffeine but are used as an adjunct. We all know that the reason for this law is the stupid FourLoko drinks.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I live in CA and the way it was explained to me is that it only affects beverages that directly add caffeine. It does not include coffee or even chocolate that do contain caffeine but are used as an adjunct. We all know that the reason for this law is the stupid FourLoko drinks.

Yeah, that's my understanding as well. This came up on a recent brewing network broadcast, I think maybe with 21st amendment? Someone that did an espresso stout, anyways, and they said they would be able to keep making it because the law didn't apply to beverages where the caffeine was an inherent part of the production process, as opposed to a standalone additive.

 

[duckmanco]

Major shocker something like would come from California.... but seriously, good news for the coffee stouts in the end.

 

[rico567]

Major shocker something like would come from California.... but seriously, good news for the coffee stouts in the end.

....while I don't find it shocking in the least.

"The natural end of all government is where everything not prohibited is compulsory, and everything not compulsory is prohibited."

- Anarchist Proverb

 

[CannibalAJ]

Well like anything fun, just don't get caught!

 

[TrainSafe]

Thanks big government for protecting us from ourselves. Now, who will protect all the mindless sheep?

Was caffeine really a problem in beer?

 

[Andrewtherooster]

Honestly, after brewing my own coffee stout, it's the only one I really want to drink.

 

[Cambone]

Thanks big government for protecting us from ourselves. Now, who will protect all the mindless sheep?

Was caffeine really a problem in beer?

O my god yes!!!! Have you not seen the horrendous effects of caffeine enraged psycho-maniacs attacking school children with a Founder's Breakfast Stout in hand?

 

[cl330b]

O my god yes!!!! Have you not seen the horrendous effects of caffeine enraged psycho-maniacs attacking school children with a Founder's Breakfast Stout in hand?

Ha!

 

[bmick]

They did this here in NY, mainly because of Four Loko. Fact of the matter is, they're marketed to kids, have as much alcohol as wine, and have killed a few people. It's nice that they have the foresight to keep this restrained to beverages that add caffeine as a separate ingredient, though.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

....while I don't find it shocking in the least.

"The natural end of all government is where everything not prohibited is compulsory, and everything not compulsory is prohibited."

- Anarchist Proverb

awesome!

really though, it doesn't seem like they're going after craft brew with coffee in it. more like they want to stop the production of alcoholic energy drinks (like FourLoko) because of the real health risk involved with those abominations. those drinks are marketed to misguided, inner city youth, the LAST people you want drinking stimulant amped booze. laws like that aren't designed to protect us from ourselves, but to protect youth (and immature adults) from corporations that market dangerous products.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

We all know that the reason for this law is the stupid FourLoko drinks.

Not just FourLoko. Also applies to bars that would mix RedBull with beer. Also, there were several lines of caffein infused sprits (mostly Vodka) that got pulled off the shelves as a result of lawsuites.

Major shocker something like would come from California.... but seriously, good news for the coffee stouts in the end.

At least not yet. They are still studying the actual mechanisms behind the mixture.

Was caffeine really a problem in beer?

Yep. Has caused a few deaths because it has a tendency to override some of the symptoms of drunkeness.

 

[Hernando]

What, No more delicious Four Loko???

 

[Zamial]

This is targeting energy drinks with alcohol like the others have mentioned and not coffee stouts/beers. Also, not all people that like caffine infused beer/drinks are out of control collage kids trying to stay out all night...

I brewed a batch of breakfast stout with Water Joe and I have it with breakfast...here is the link for anyone interested. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/water-joe-anyone-tried-yet-224879/

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

What, No more delicious Four Loko???

i know, right! epic tragedy!

 

[KevinM]

I suppose people found it too hard to stop selling underaged kids FourLoko, so they just decided to blame the business.
I think it's a bit silly to go to that extent that they are because they want to blame something for the deaths of people who don't think or learn about moderation in their drinking from their caretakers.
Personally, I don't even like the taste of redbull, so I generally don't have redbull & vodka, though it's popular. Maybe a splash in a different mixed drink though.

I guess they're just trying to stop the demon "caffiend" as an additive but there will be ways around it enough that it'll just become worse, again, espresso based alcoholic drinks and then they'll outlaw coffee added to drinks.

At least coffee is ok, and I'm still going to keep serving irish coffees with boozed up whipped cream. And you know what. And having Rum and Coke. That's right, that's how I roll. And I'm still adding caffeine powder to my spirits when I feel like it, though I usually only use that when making sodas, usually just colas.

 

[beng]

What, No more delicious Four Loko???

Anyone have a four loco clone?? Heres my recipe

1 part bud light
1 part flavored vodka
3 pills no-doze ground up and dissolved.

:cross::cross:

 

[Jazman]

You hosers in CA need to get off your asses and elect a legislature that has a clue how to fix your economic problems and stop worrying about how individuals live their lives. I am so sick of that nanny-state..

Jaz

 

[raptorvan]

also, its like a set caffine level isnt it? like, a coffee stout has, per pint, has like a whiff of caffine so it might not even qualify. whereas fourloko has has the equivelant of like 5 cups of coffee per 22oz or something ridiculious.

i wonder though...does this outlaw jagerbombs?

 

[BlainD]

I want to live in a country where I can kill myself however I like. Cigarettes are far worse for your health than a Four Loco but cigarettes are legal because there are not an army of lobbyists shelling out money under the table to keep them flowing. Turns my stomach.

 

[raptorvan]

I want to live in a country where I can kill myself however I like. Cigarettes are far worse for your health than a Four Loco but cigarettes are legal because there are not an army of lobbyists shelling out money under the table to keep them flowing. Turns my stomach.

i dont think the lobby has much to do with it. the alcohol lobby is just as powerful. its just about some state politicians trying to idiot proof the world. a bunch of kids drink 7 of them in 3 hours...a couple die and its four lokos fault? give me a break. its darwinism. ever watch the show "1000 ways to die"? people will find a way to kill themselves, you cannot make everything illegal because .001% of a consumer base had an ill effect after doing something stupid...if that were the case cars/ trains/ planes/ boats would all be illegal.

 

[C-Rider]

They did this here in NY, mainly because of Four Loko. Fact of the matter is, they're marketed to kids, have as much alcohol as wine, and have killed a few people. It's nice that they have the foresight to keep this restrained to beverages that add caffeine as a separate ingredient, though.

Only a stupid liberal would think the law is a good idea. So now they take the alcohalic drink and mix it w/Red Bull and all is good again. It's like guns, they don't kill people, people kill people.

But lets us not get to deep into politics.. I think I'llhave one of my Green Sand Coffee Stouts made w/100% Kau Coffee from the Big Island of Hawai`i.

 

[plumbob]

Only a stupid liberal would think the law is a good idea. So now they take the alcohalic drink and mix it w/Red Bull and all is good again. It's like guns, they don't kill people, people kill people.

But lets us not get to deep into politics.. I think I'llhave one of my Green Sand Coffee Stouts made w/100% Kau Coffee from the Big Island of Hawai`i.

On balance I would have to believe that there are just as many "Conservative Christian" mommys and daddys out there calling their representatives and telling them to keep this out of the hands of their kids who just went off to college.

 

[C-Rider]

You hosers in CA need to get off your asses and elect a legislature that has a clue how to fix your economic problems and stop worrying about how individuals live their lives. I am so sick of that nanny-state..

Jaz

I believe the Feds followed w/a similar law

 

[C-Rider]

i dont think the lobby has much to do with it. the alcohol lobby is just as powerful. its just about some state politicians trying to idiot proof the world. a bunch of kids drink 7 of them in 3 hours...a couple die and its four lokos fault? give me a break. its darwinism. ever watch the show "1000 ways to die"? people will find a way to kill themselves, you cannot make everything illegal because .001% of a consumer base had an ill effect after doing something stupid...if that were the case cars/ trains/ planes/ boats would all be illegal.

Lets not call them "kids". They are adults! Young adults, but over the age of 21 if they could buy the Four Lokos. I've heard of kids, oops I mean young adults dying from bilge drinking good old H2O. Yup to much H2O over a short periodof time and you are a gonner. Lets outlaw bottled water.

When I was in college and needed to stay awake I'd just pop NoDoz pills. As a matter of fact I keep a bottle in each of my cars so I won't fall asleep on the road.

 

[plumbob]

Lets not call them "kids". They are adults! Young adults, but over the age of 21 if they could buy the Four Lokos. I've heard of kids, oops I mean young adults dying from bilge drinking good old H2O. Yup to much H2O over a short periodof time and you are a gonner. Lets outlaw bottled water.

When I was in college and needed to stay awake I'd just pop NoDoz pills. As a matter of fact I keep a bottle in each of my cars so I won't fall asleep on the road.

That a bit of an oversimplification and exaggeration. I think alcohol is the ninth leading cause of death in the US, depending on who is counting and how. Somewhere around 20,000 deaths per year. I couldn't find any numbers on how many otherwise healthy people die each year from drinking too much water, but surely it is less than 100, probably less than 10.

That aside, I tend to agree with your point. I doubt banning caffeine from alcoholic beverages is going to save many (any?) lives. The evidence that exists right now doesn't seem to show that anything particularly special happens when caffeine and alcohol are used together by healthy people. It would be almost impossible to say "This person would not have died had they not consumed caffeine along with their alcohol."

There DOES exist a serious cultural and societal problem when it comes to people under 25 and alcohol use. But, no amount of social engineering, from the government, or from groups like MADD, is going to change that. A knee jerk reaction to a new beverage implicated in the deaths of young people is to be expected, even when more people will probably drink themselves to death with Jose Cuervo this week than have ever died drinking Four Loko. The bottom line is regardless where you live, sensationalist responses to this sort of thing get politicians of all political stripes reelected.

 

[Charlie_in_TX]

This from the state were pot is legal.

Not comparing the people involved just the result. There is a brief story I have heard attributed to a citizen of Nazi Germany. It may be from some other place... When they came for the Jew down the street, I said nothing. When they came for the family hiding the Jew, I said nothing. When they came for the man who denounced Hitler, I said nothing. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me.

There is nothing sinister about adding caffeine and alcohol. There is something sinister about loosing freedom.

 

[KevinM]

Most of my conservative friends like the law, most of my liberal friends do not. So I'm opposed to the stupid liberal's bit, I'd be more worried about the other types and stupid people in general. Particularly in that most liberalists I know are those who don't believe in the overreaching law, but instead believe that people, especially parents and peers, are the ones who should be the ones to control their own personal destiny.

Anyhow, I fully agree that there is a problem with people, particularly in the age range, that make poor decisions about any alcohol use. And there are also people who make poor decisions about caffeine use. Case in point, people overdosing on pure powder caffeine. It's happened before. As for me, I use mine for sodas. I'm not sniffing the stuff.

Alcohol. I've only gotten sick once. And that was due to mixing 2 drinks that shouldn't have been mixed. (Cream drink, then a citrus drink after.) Yeah, bad idea to try to curdle milk in my stomach.

Any social engineering is going to come from the peers and parents. I've always been taught to just know when I've had enough. My parents actually said get drunk once in your life and know how it feels during and after and just be careful not to get to that point. (And this was said before I was 16).

Just think what will happen next. Well, if I were Four Loko, I would then make two separate drinks. One that's caffinated but has no alcohol, your typical "energy beverage" and one that has the alcohol but no caffeine. Any business will try to squirm around any law. And sometimes they should (Personally, I hope they do just this), and sometimes they shouldn't (food safety laws. No botulisum or rat droppings or ecoli please.). This law just makes it more annoying for any person to get around.

Even at a bar, I'm sure people will order separate drinks. One redbull and one vodka. I'll mix it myself.

 

[harrydrez]

They did this here in NY, mainly because of Four Loko. Fact of the matter is, they're marketed to kids, have as much alcohol as wine, and have killed a few people. It's nice that they have the foresight to keep this restrained to beverages that add caffeine as a separate ingredient, though.

They're marketing to young adults but if they were marketing to kids then bust them for that. Anyway, you can't legislate stupidity imo this law is silly.

 

[logdrum]

Just think what will happen next. Well, if I were Four Loko, I would then make two separate drinks. One that's caffinated but has no alcohol, your typical "energy beverage" and one that has the alcohol but no caffeine.

And call each one "Two Loco"

 

[C-Rider]

And call each one "Two Loco"

I understand you can still buy it, but w/o the caffeine

 

[falconnuke]

They're marketing to young adults but if they were marketing to kids then bust them for that. Anyway, you can't legislate stupidity imo this law is silly.

I spent a number of years in college in NY. trust me, most of the people who drink those beverages are under 21.

 

[DoubleAught]

I guess that means no Moonshot Beer - Company - Boston, MA | Facebook
I think the FDA had ran them out of business anyway...

 

[rico567]

This from the state were pot is legal.

Not comparing the people involved just the result. There is a brief story I have heard attributed to a citizen of Nazi Germany. It may be from some other place... When they came for the Jew down the street, I said nothing. When they came for the family hiding the Jew, I said nothing. When they came for the man who denounced Hitler, I said nothing. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me.

There is nothing sinister about adding caffeine and alcohol. There is something sinister about loosing freedom.

.......aaaand on the last day of 2011 I've just seen my first Godwin on HBT!

*Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia