No-hop porter

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rgonzale

Active Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Messages
25
Reaction score
0
Location
Newark
I just made a chocolate maple porter (using the 1-gallon Brooklyn Brew Shop all-grain kit), and as an experiment decided to leave out the hops!

I've opened two bottles and the taste is (as expected?) weird -- kind of a soy sauce flavor. I was pretty careful about sanitation so I *think* this is just the taste of a very dark beer without the balance provided by hopping. Anyone else ever try this?

I think I'm going to boil the hops from the kit with some more priming sugar and open the remaining bottles and top them off with this solution and seal them up again. Hopefully this will salvage the batch, as well as prove that the bad flavor was just from lack of hops!
 
I admire your experimental spirit and appreciate you posting your results, but I must question your judgment to leave out the glorious hops.

No idea if your plan will have any effect.

I'm totally scattershooting here, but you could always use the beer for cooking.

What about a Soy Sauce Porter Brisket?

Get a huge turkey pan

Salt, pepper, season (maybe asian spices like szechuan peppers or something) the brisket

Marinade the brisket in a beer for a day or so

Pour a couple of them in the bottom of the pan

Put the brisket on the rack that fits in the side of the pan

Cook in the oven on really low heat for a long time


Like I said, it's just a thought, but it may turn out awesome.
 
You do know that one of the most important roles of hops in beer is that it acts as a preservative to prevent souring don't you?

You need hops or some sort of other preservative in it, or it will turn rapidly, no matter how good your sanitization practice would be. All the gruits used some sort of herb/plant for both it's bittering and it's preservative aspects, though some of them fell short on the preservation side.

If you ever make a yeast starter in the summer and taste the beer on top, you would see how even after 24 hours a hopsless wort will turn, no matter how good we are a sanitization. That's why some folks add a hop pellet or two to their starters.
 
Hmmm, yeah I know that hops are a preservative, but I wasn't thinking it would turn so quickly -- I thought it was a matter of months.

But that would explain the taste. Maybe I'll still do my hopping experiment to see if the flavor recovers but from your explanation it sounds pretty unlikely!

Thanks for the replies (and the brisket recipe :p )
 
You do know that one of the most important roles of hops in beer is that it acts as a preservative to prevent souring don't you?

You need hops or some sort of other preservative in it, or it will turn rapidly, no matter how good your sanitization practice would be. All the gruits used some sort of herb/plant for both it's bittering and it's preservative aspects, though some of them fell short on the preservation side.

If you ever make a yeast starter in the summer and taste the beer on top, you would see how even after 24 hours a hopsless wort will turn, no matter how good we are a sanitization. That's why some folks add a hop pellet or two to their starters.
So why doesn't wine "turn" rapidly? What about mead? I don't follow your logic, and your opinion appears misinformed.
 
So why doesn't wine "turn" rapidly? What about mead? I don't follow your logic, and your opinion appears misinformed.

Wine's a different animal than beer. So's cider and meads.....They're for one thing higher in alcohol content then most beers and that's a preservative in itself. But it's also more than likely a preservative against things that are antagonistic to grain based beverages.

You've never heard of why hops are added in beer? It's not just bittering. Why do you think they added so many hops to IPAs supposedly for sea voyages?

From= Hops: A Brief History

Without the hop's preservative qualities, beer could not keep. Without the hop, there could be no beer stored for the summer when heat and pollen made fermentation unreliable. Even highly alcoholic ales -- sweet, thick and sticky -- were prone to spoilage, especially if subjected to the motion of travel. They needed to be drunk quickly and close to home.

So without the hop, brewing could not be pursued successfully on a large scale. No legendary brands, no huge breweries, no big advertising bucks, no ESPN, no Women's Pro Beach Volleyball.

As you can see, the hop changed more than flavor; it changed history. It was the addition of hops to beer that enabled brewers to ship their beers, to taste their first real commercial success and to relegate the homebrewer and pubbrewer to the status of novelties for several centuries.

HOPS: The Bitter Herb
University of Atlantia Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon
[email protected]


ADVANTAGES OF HOPPED BEER

Beer was the one drink that had been sterilized and was safe to drink.

Prior to hops, the stronger (more alcoholic) beer was, the longer it kept. The addition of hops is a preservative, thus allowing beer to be weaker and still keep longer.

Hops allowed you to produce more beer from the same amount of malt. Reynold Scot, in A Perfite Platforme for a Hoppe Garden, states "whereas you cannot make above 8-9 gallons of a very indifferent ale from a bushel of malt, you may draw 18-20 gallons of very good beer."

Hops also aid in clarification as well as head retention.

Hops as a preservative

One reason hops won out over other herbs is the preservative effects hops have in beer. Gruits also lent a preservative effect, but hops are especially--and consistently--good for this purpose.

The preservative effect of hops also affected the development of certain beer styles; for example, India Pale Ale and several other styles intended for export had higher hop bitterness to preserve them on their travels, and often correspondingly higher alcohol levels to balance the beer's flavor.


Modern homebrewers rarely have to worry about adjusting hop levels to preserve beer, although they should be aware of the need for increased care if they are attempting to brew a gruit or other unhopped beer style.

Another important historical quality of hops is their preservative ability. When hops first starting being used in beer, brewers quickly learned that they prevented many air and water-borne bacteria from infecting their beer. Modern brewers are able to maintain very sanitary brewing and packaging conditions and they have refrigeration and pasteurization at their disposal. So, hops' stabilizing quality on beer is less important to them than their


Our resident historian Bob, backs me up in this thread here as well.
 
Palmer mentions putting hops in starters in his instructions in how to brew. And Brad at Beersmith writes this in his instructions on his site.

Recipe to make a 1.040 OG liquid yeast starter; Scale Recipe to make larger starter or step up. Hops help preserve the starter if you intend to store it or use it in a few days.

And this is from a BYO article on making starters.

The starter should be done a day or so before you plan to brew. The easiest yeast starter consists of one-third cup of dry malt extract boiled in a pint of water. Some people add yeast nutrient, yeast energizer, or even a hop pellet or two into the starter for safe measure. ...

Even this guy mentions hopping starter wort you plan on canning.
 
Wine's a different animal than beer. So's cider and meads.....

Where the hell did you get this idea that hops don't act as a preservative for beer? You've never heard this?

Who's mis informed?

Our resident historian Bob, backs me up in this thread here as well.


Please see Rule #13, and make a note of it. Home Brew Forums - FAQ: Board FAQ


I'll post it here, and bold the part that I'm referring to: If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum

No more "walls of text", no more berating a point by flooding the forum with multiple posts of the same item, and so on. Please feel free to make a point, but simply linking to the information instead of cutting and pasting is much more appropriate.

If people don't always agree with everything others say, that's a good thing. That's what makes a forum work. That doesn't make someone with a different thought or different experiences wrong.
 
I never said that hops don't have a preservative quality. However, with proper sanitation, I don't see why they're absolutely necessary. Beer isn't going to "turn" in a big hurry without them. None of your sources mention that beer will sour without hops.

Back to the OP, I'm guessing there's a different reason than "souring" that is contributing to the flavor issue. Soy sauce isn't sour, it's malty and salty. Post your recipe, and perhaps we can determine a root cause.
 
I never said that hops don't have a preservative quality. However, with proper sanitation, I don't see why they're absolutely necessary. Beer isn't going to "turn" in a big hurry without them. None of your sources mention that beer will sour without hops.

Well, then what do you think they needed to preserve the beer FROM then? You don't need a preservative unless there's something needed to protect it from anyhow. What do you think "spoilage" means?

The earliest experiment I can find that backs up what I'm saying is mentioned in the "Annals of Philosophy" from 1821 (which is a google book and it won't allow me to copy and paste page 199) where the author describes an experiment where he put an equal amount of "beer" in 2 vessels exposed to the "sun" (and I assume air as well,) 1 he added a "scruple" of Lupulin and the other he didn't, the hopless beer became "mouldy and sour" within 10 days, and the other hadn't soured after 15 days when he called the experiment over.

Is 10 days a big hurry or a long time to you? Either way, sour is sour in my book.

And there's this pretty famous video from 2008 from the basic brewing guys. Where they were planning to do a basemalt tasting experiment and brewed hopless "beers" and they turned out to be soured. I can't recall how long it was between them brewing it and discovering it was sour.

And I and other folks have noticed that our hopless starters often sour after only a few days without hops.

I don't know what else to say. I only expressed in my initial post the POSSIBILITY that his beer would sour, nor that his beer was sour.

FYI, A scruple is a unit of apothecary weight equal to about 1.3 grams, or 20 grains.
 
Wine's a different animal than beer. So's cider and meads.....They're for one thing higher in alcohol content then most beers and that's a preservative in itself. But it's also more than likely a preservative against things that are antagonistic to grain based beverages.

Without the hop's preservative qualities, beer could not keep. Without the hop, there could be no beer stored for the summer when heat and pollen made fermentation unreliable. Even highly alcoholic ales -- sweet, thick and sticky -- were prone to spoilage, especially if subjected to the motion of travel. They needed to be drunk quickly and close to home.

Why don't you take a look at the very quote you provided. Yes, alcohol content works as a preservative... however that alone must not be the answer. (6% cider ages fairly well in my experience)

You bring up a good point with your second comment though about things or organisms that are antagonistic to grain based beverages.

This may be a little off topic, but I'd be less interested in why hopless beer sours than why wine, ciders, and meads don't. And, as stated by your sources and above, high alcohol content, although contributing to preservation, must not be the only factor. I feel some other unfermentables in the wine, ciders, and meads must play a role as well. A similar preservative role as hops play in beers. I'd be curious...
 
FWIW the "recipe" was the bag of grains for Brooklyn Brew Shop's Chocolate Maple Porter, mashed and then boiled for 60 min with no hops. It then called for 3/4 cup maple syrup (for 1 gallon of wort) and went into a sanitized 1-gallon glass fermenter with 1 packet of yeast (not sure what type of yeast was provided either!) for 14 days, temps around 60-64F. I neglected to measure the gravity, but think it's pretty strong based on the action contributed by the maple syrup -- there was still a little bubble activity at 14 days. Added (boiled) table sugar solution for priming and bottled for 2 weeks.
 
A couple of things related to the hop preservative tangent...

1.) most other fermented beverages are higher in ABV.
2.) most other fermented beverages have lower amounts of carbohydrates not fermentable by yeast. Various bacteria can break a number of bonds yeast cannot, so without preservatives they have a niche yeast cannot inhabit, giving them a competitive disadvantage.
3.) It would appear there are a number of preservative qualities of the fruits going into other beverages...acidity, resveratrol (albeit in teeny tiny quantities), etc. Probably a horde of things we havent discovered or realized as well. Could be similar with grains, though.
4.) regardless of how super awesome your sanitation is, it is unreasonable to think you are bacteria free in anything done in normal homebrewing. For example, that moment between filling and capping is a moment where bacteria is entering your bottles (or keg or whatnot). If you aren't in a sterile biohazard room, something bad is touching your beer. Just in really small amounts. If hops are as important as some would suggest...maybe a likely culprit in the off flavor.

This is all theorycraft, so it the modern realm of sanitation, this may not really be a factor. We'd need a lot more scientific method of analyzing.

I was under the impression a "soy sauce" like off flavor was indication of autolysis, though. Most of the OP's process sounds fine for sanitation, perhaps the maple syrup could be a culprit since it was post boil?

I would think the beer would taste poor either way without a bittering agent of some sort, preferably tasty, tasty hops. Always fun to experiment.
 
Why don't you take a look at the very quote you provided. Yes, alcohol content works as a preservative... however that alone must not be the answer. (6% cider ages fairly well in my experience)

You bring up a good point with your second comment though about things or organisms that are antagonistic to grain based beverages.

This may be a little off topic, but I'd be less interested in why hopless beer sours than why wine, ciders, and meads don't. And, as stated by your sources and above, high alcohol content, although contributing to preservation, must not be the only factor. I feel some other unfermentables in the wine, ciders, and meads must play a role as well. A similar preservative role as hops play in beers. I'd be curious...


I was thinking in terms of higher alcohol wines being over 10% and that's why.

But you're right there has to be something more to it.

I was wondering about Lactobasilus, I haven't read enough about wines, ciders, meads to know, but is lacto as present and or dangerous to non grain based fermentations as it is to beer? I know acetobactor can harm all of them, but is Lacto what sours beers?

I'm more a historian than I am a scientist, I don't know either WHY hops preserve beer, and what they are antisceptic specifially to, (it might be in that google book I linked) I just know that hops have always been viewed as a preservative in beers to prevent souring (as have some of the plants used in gruit making) that's why I was so surprised to be told by YURI that I was misinformed as to that info....and that beer without hops won't sour....

And the other question is, in terms of gruits or other hopless concoctions that use herbs to preserve, is it the same compounds found in hops that do it, or another chemical that does something similar, but maybe to a lesser extent.

Maybe Bob would know.
 
Something you mentioned, RH, aren't many of the "other" fermented beverages you mentioned (I'm thinking wines specifically) made with fruit high in Pectins? And aren't pectins preservatives? I have vague recollection of adding pectin to certain fruits to prevent them from browning or something when I was helping my mother can 30 years ago.
 
Actually, it's pretty widely known among historical brewers that unhopped medieval-style English "ale" will sour in a matter of days unless it's of prodigious strength. In my experience, in order to last more than 4-10 days the OG must be strong enough to present 10+%ABV in order to inhibit spoilage microflora from having an effect. These observations confirm contemporary writings on the subject. So I guess it's all down to your definition of "a big hurry". ;)

I've had ciders at 6-7% ABV cellar fairly well, even in wood. I don't know the science behind that phenomenon; I suspect it has something to do with malt having more nutrients available for microflora metabolization than fruit and cane sugars. Historically, handy-books advised fortifying cider which was meant to be laid down. A historical 'receipt' I use annually specifies a substantial amount of sugar added to fresh-pressed juice, cast to cask, pitch 'ale yest', bung it up when it stops actively working and wait a year. My measurements indicate an ABV of 7-9% depending on the must constituents.

Historically, wines below a certain strength were also sold young, went off very quickly, and were often consumed while still fermenting. The phenomenon of "laying down" bottled wines is actually relatively recent (the last ~200 years or so). The handy-books are stuffed to the gills with methods and receipts for making spoiled wine palatable. It stands to reason, too - sanitation, at least in terms of microflora, was unheard of (if it were, we would never have seen Porter explode in the 18th century). Only the strongest wines would age any appreciable time. Most wines would be in at least the beginning stages of going off when they reached English or American shores from the locales where they were tunned.

The point is, historically the logical conclusion, supported by observation of modern recreated recipes/techniques, is that alcohol was the preservative in unhopped beverages.

In terms of hopped beverages, as Revvy noted one need only skim the history of India Pale Ale to see an obvious example of the preservative quality of hops. Further back in history, the addition of hops was a crucial development in the supplanting of gruitbier in the Low Countries by hopped beer from the Hanseatic ports. From approximately 1400CE on, hopped beer rapidly overtook traditional ale in Britain, Andrew Boorde's xenophobia notwithstanding. Brewing historians conclude that it was economics, not particularly consumer taste, which drove the spread of hopped beer, specifically because the addition of hops made for a more economical brew, as the resulting beer lasted longer and took less malt than unhopped (or gruit) malt beverages.

There's a whole range of sources for all this to cite, too much that's on my shelves in books and advanced-degree dissertations and not on the web.

For the OP, an experiment you may wish to try in order to determine if the flavors are spoilage or simply unbalanced porter: Go buy a bottle of Malta Goya. Malta you're likely to get in DE is brewed at The Lion Brewery in Wilkes-Barre, PA, and IIRC is simply unfermented Stegmaier Porter. :D Now, there are hops in there, but not so much as you'd notice. I suspect that your unhopped porter is actually spoiled. I sincerely doubt that the additions you made took the ABV above the point where the beer itself is antiseptic; as I said, I find 10% ABV to be the magic number.

Cheers! :mug:

Bob

P.S. Yooper, while I'm the last bloke to wish an argument with a moderator, I must protest. When a desired citation quotes specific portions of a web site or page, a simple link is insufficient; in one of the above examples, Terafan's work is quite lengthy, and expecting the reader to sift through the entire thing to find the lines of interest is unreasonable. Thus one is compelled to quote the relevant passage of text to support one's position. This is commonly-accepted practice in essays; I cannot fathom why it's objectionable here.
 
Something you mentioned, RH, aren't many of the "other" fermented beverages you mentioned (I'm thinking wines specifically) made with fruit high in Pectins? And aren't pectins preservatives? I have vague recollection of adding pectin to certain fruits to prevent them from browning or something when I was helping my mother can 30 years ago.

I'm under the impression pectin is just a fruit based form of soluble fiber. It's added to jams for texture, which...maybe the resulting product is more shelf stable? I figured it was just the canned process that helped it, but I dont know. Most commercial pectins have preservatives added I think, sorbates or whatnot.

Just from my bio nerd experience, I would think it would be anti preservative for alcoholic beverages, as certain bacteria can break the bonds, while yeast cannot. Basically, any mammal you see chowin' on grass is using bacteria like this to break down bonds of what we call fiber.

I'm totally conjecturing here, but I think it would go along with point 2 I posted above -> bacteria can eat it, yeast can't.
 
I don't know much about cider, but I know most dry red wines considered suitable for aging have an FG of .995 or lower. So it seems pretty reasonable to me that wine doesn't go bad due to the fact there is simply nothing for bacteria to eat in the wine.

This seems to be verified by the fact that wine can be stored for further use after being opened and exposed to outside sources- if a bottle of beer was opened, poured a few times, corked and set aside for a week it would turn all sorts of awful. Wines tolerate this storage much better, and the degradation of flavor that does occur is due to oxidation, not spoilage/infection.
 
[snip]
I was under the impression a "soy sauce" like off flavor was indication of autolysis, though. Most of the OP's process sounds fine for sanitation, perhaps the maple syrup could be a culprit since it was post boil?

Thank you so much for the observations roundhoundbrewing! I think you're onto something with the autolysis -- the beer flavor definitely reminds me of the smell of the dead yeast at the bottom of the primary. I think this affected my previous brew to a lesser extent as well. I'll have to read up on techniques to reduce this problem.
 
Bob, I'll find a bottle of the Malta Goya, solely for academic purposes of course ;)

Thank you all so much for the informative replies. I'll get the hang of this stuff a lot quicker thanks to you guys! :mug:
 
Just as a followup... I took a bottle to the local How Do You Brew to get an opinion from the staff. They said it actually tasted ok, and was probably not spoiled. In part I think it needed a bit more time to bottle-condition though to my palate it still barely tastes like beer.

Today I am bottling my 3rd effort, a similar Chocolate Porter whose recipe was gleaned from several posts on this site and is presented below. Even uncarbonated, this brew is miles better than the "no-hop" porter: it is smooth with hints of coffee and none of the "soy sauce" taste -- unless you get a mouthful of trub :p.

My conclusion, FWIW, is that the absence of hops did not lead to spoilage -- though I'm grateful for the wealth of knowledge on these subjects by all those who posted to this thread.

Rather, I think the absence of hops left the predominant flavor of fermented malted grains, which is not particularly appealing. As the rest of you are well aware, hops balance out and compliment the malt flavor, as well as contributing to preservation and by some accounts head retention.

I guess it was still a valuable experience for me...

Here is the (much better) recipe I bottled today:

---------------
1.5gal Chocolate Porter, bottled 2012-01-27

2lb 2-row malts 1927e
5oz Roast Barley 1921c
5oz chocolate malts 1937c
4 oz crystal malts 60L 3445
(I'll probably add wheat and/or oats next time.)

1/2oz Fuggle hops
packet Nottingham Ale Yeast

Priming sugar: 1/4 tsp table sugar per cup

I also set aside a few bottles to experiment with nonfermentable additives: lactose or maltodextrin, to see how they affect sweetness and/or head.
 
Back
Top