No foam :-(

[user 336313]

Hi all,

So I brewed a Belgian strong golden ale that went in cans (by a professional mobile canning line).
Malts used: pilsen, maris otter, vienna and 7,3% of caramalt (crystal). Yeast: Abbey Ale by Lallemand.
Everything went according to plan. Taste was great. 7,7% ABV. However, when it was poured from the can, the foam would be gone almost immediately. This happened regardless of the glass that was used, to different people, so it wasn't one greasy glass that I base this on. I had the same experience myself.
What could have been the cause of this, you reckon?

Thx!

 

[Sammy86]

How many cans did you try?

Was the beer carbonated and if so what was the process and where was it stored?

We need more info before coming to a solid solution.

 

[RM-MN]

How long from the time it was put into cans until you started opening the cans?

 

[hotbeer]

Sometimes it's how you pour. If you run it carefully down the side of the glass the entire time, you may never get any foam or head. A certain amount needs to be poured into the middle of the beer in the glass.

Does it seem to have the proper level of carbonation?

 

[DBhomebrew]

However, when it was poured from the can, the foam would be gone almost immediately.

Sounds like a problem of head/foam retention. That's different than a problem of head/foam formation (carb level, pouring temp, pouring technique).

An unneeded protein rest, maybe? Not enough time in the can?

Some of us have observed that big beers that may be fully carbed continue to build retention capabilities over time.

 

[user 336313]

How many cans did you try?

Was the beer carbonated and if so what was the process and where was it stored?

We need more info before coming to a solid solution.

Beer was indeed carbonated. Kept cold in 10 hecto tank until day of canning.

 

[user 336313]

How long from the time it was put into cans until you started opening the cans?

I'd say four weeks?

Sometimes it's how you pour. If you run it carefully down the side of the glass the entire time, you may never get any foam or head. A certain amount needs to be poured into the middle of the beer in the glass.

Does it seem to have the proper level of carbonation?

It had the right carbonation at the time of canning.

Sounds like a problem of head/foam retention. That's different than a problem of head/foam formation (carb level, pouring temp, pouring technique).

An unneeded protein rest, maybe? Not enough time in the can?

Some of us have observed that big beers that may be fully carbed continue to build retention capabilities over time.

No protein rest! And about four weeks in the can.

 

[user 336313]

The beer was transferred from the fermentation tank to a BBT tank! I forgot about that...

And now that I think about it, the beer had already been carbonated when we transferred it.

 

[bellhp]

And now that I think about it, the beer had already been carbonated when we transferred it.

...This.

 

[hotbeer]

It had the right carbonation at the time of canning.

But does it seem to have the right carbonation after you pour it? Do you see steady little streamers of bubbles headed to the surface for a long time after you pour it, or is it flat soon after?

And what about how you pour it? Iike I said, I can pour some of my beers gently down the side of the glass and have no head at all. However depending on the batch, I can pour the last half to third of the bottle/can into the middle of the beer and get a good head that lasts a while.

Other times, I'll have a batch that makes a head no matter how carefully they are poured down the side, but those admittedly are rare for me.

I think that is part of the art of the pour. Learning how much to let go directly into the beer in the glass without the head spilling over or coming up too short and not being impressive.

 

[user 336313]

...This.

Think so?

 

[user 336313]

But does it seem to have the right carbonation after you pour it? Do you see steady little streamers of bubbles headed to the surface for a long time after you pour it, or is it flat soon after?

And what about how you pour it? Iike I said, I can pour some of my beers gently down the side of the glass and have no head at all. However depending on the batch, I can pour the last half to third of the bottle/can into the middle of the beer and get a good head that lasts a while.

Other times, I'll have a batch that makes a head no matter how carefully they are poured down the side, but those admittedly are rare for me.

I think that is part of the art of the pour. Learning how much to let go directly into the beer in the glass without the head spilling over or coming up too short and not being impressive.

No, it happened to too many people, including myself, and I understand pouring.

It did have little streamers of bubbles going up!

 

[Zambezi Special]

What temperature is your can?
I had some beers (bottled) that were standing very cold (about 1 oC) No foam.
By letting them warm up a bit, foam was fine.
Worth a try

 

[user 336313]

What temperature is your can?
I had some beers (bottled) that were standing very cold (about 1 oC) No foam.
By letting them warm up a bit, foam was fine.
Worth a try

The cans were drunk by many. We got the same feedback from many. It was an end-of-year-beer for a big firm. They all got cans to take home for Christmas.

 

[RM-MN]

I have made a couple batches with the same symptoms but mine were in bottles. It turned out that I was using too much detergent and insufficient rinsing so that a little detergent carried over in the bottles before they were filled. That may not be your problem but look at all equipment from the mash tun to the can filler. It is possible that someone doubled the cleaning agent by accident.

 

[Miraculix]

It can be the yeast, it can be fatty acids in solution and it can be an infection.

If you carry a lot of trub over into your fermenter, the yeast might excrete protein degrading enzymes that will destroy head retention. Sometimes infections excrete these enzymes as well. And sometimes this trub contains fatty acids that destroy the head.

 

[user 336313]

I have made a couple batches with the same symptoms but mine were in bottles. It turned out that I was using too much detergent and insufficient rinsing so that a little detergent carried over in the bottles before they were filled. That may not be your problem but look at all equipment from the mash tun to the can filler. It is possible that someone doubled the cleaning agent by accident.

This is interesting. Thx.

 

[user 336313]

It can be the yeast, it can be fatty acids in solution and it can be an infection.

If you carry a lot of trub over into your fermenter, the yeast might excrete protein degrading enzymes that will destroy head retention. Sometimes infections excrete these enzymes as well. And sometimes this trub contains fatty acids that destroy the head.

Roger that. I do a decent whirlpool and let it rest for 20 minutes. The wort should be quite free of trub, but will definitely look into this.

 

[hottpeper13]

The only time I've had that happen I used Dawn dish soap on my BIAB and did not PBW it before use. The no head looked like a carbed mead or seltzer with champagne type bubbles.

 

[Miraculix]

Roger that. I do a decent whirlpool and let it rest for 20 minutes. The wort should be quite free of trub, but will definitely look into this.

I've had this in semi leaky buckets back in the days. The oxygen promoted bacterial growth, these bacteria were eating the proteins that are responsible for head retention. No leaky bucket for you I assume?

 

[MicroMickey]

Your problems may have started long before the beer went into the cans.

https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/foam-development-retention/

 

[user 336313]

I've had this in semi leaky buckets back in the days. The oxygen promoted bacterial growth, these bacteria were eating the proteins that are responsible for head retention. No leaky bucket for you I assume?

Sure hope not! I'm brewing and fermenting with pretty decent stainless steal tanks.

 

[user 336313]

Your problems may have started long before the beer went into the cans.

https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/foam-development-retention/

Will take the time to read this. Thank you sir.

Edit: did a quick scroll down to the list below. Number 5 is still a likely suspect, as we transferred the beer from one tank to another AFTER we had already saturated it with CO2. I imagine there was a lot of foaming going on in that process.

Causes of Poor Foam Retention

1. Excessive protein rest
2. Over-modified malt
3. Too high an adjunct ratio
4. Lipids in ferment (excessive sparging, autolyzed yeast, insufficient hot & cold break)
5. Over foaming in fermenter (usually due to excessive fermentation temperature)
6. Insufficient or deteriorated hops
7. Contact with oils or grease (at any time including the point of pouring in a glass)

 

[Miraculix]

Your problems may have started long before the beer went into the cans.

https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/foam-development-retention/

Very good article.

 

[Miraculix]

Will take the time to read this. Thank you sir.

Edit: did a quick scroll down to the list below. Number 5 is still a likely suspect, as we transferred the beer from one tank to another AFTER we had already saturated it with CO2. I imagine there was a lot of foaming going on in that process.

Causes of Poor Foam Retention

1. Excessive protein rest
2. Over-modified malt
3. Too high an adjunct ratio
4. Lipids in ferment (excessive sparging, autolyzed yeast, insufficient hot & cold break)
5. Over foaming in fermenter (usually due to excessive fermentation temperature)
6. Insufficient or deteriorated hops
7. Contact with oils or grease (at any time including the point of pouring in a glass)

The two main points are not listed, although mentioned in the text.

Proper mash schedule to enhance ltp1 and Glyco proteins, basically a hoch kurz schedule.

Yeast health.

 

[user 336313]

The two main points are not listed, although mentioned in the text.

Proper mash schedule to enhance ltp1 and Glyco proteins, basically a hoch kurz schedule.

Yeast health.

Yeast is also a possible culprit. As in: under-pitching. I pitched 500 grams of Abbey Ale by Lallemand for a 1000 litre batch. The beer was quite strong/ heavy too. However, we almost always pitch 500 grams and never have any problems. I still think it was the transfer of the already carbonated beer to another tank was what caused it.