Newbie BIAB question: 5G batch with 5G kettle?

[Dabba]

So I have a 5G kettle that I used for 5G extract kit. My last batch was half BIAB with some extract and I made a 5G batch. I'd like to go full BIAB for 5G batches without upgrading my kettle.

I read maxBIAB but that seemed confusing.

So question:

Using a brew calculator like brewtoad. Can I calculate my ingredients for a 5G batch, mash my grain for say 90 mins, dunk sparge it, toss the sparge into the kettle, boil and add all my ingredients calculated for a 5G batch and then top off with water to 5G?

Theoretically if I'm using the amount of ingredients for a 5G batch and sparge/mash well, I should have a more concentrated wort (because of a smaller post boil volume) and then by topping it off to 5G it should make it to about the target OG?


Thoughts?

 

[chickypad]

Yes it works, I do it fairly regularly. A few things to consider - since you're making a more concentrated wort your efficiency will suffer some. Also as with any topped off batch you may max out on IBU's since you're diluting after the boil. I only do this with mid range beers that aren't particularly bitter or hoppy.

 

[Dabba]

Is there any way to compensate for that if say I wanted to do an imperial ipa?

 

[chickypad]

I don't know a way around the dilution issue of topping off. You could of course make a smaller batch, or do a split boil.

 

[Dabba]

I don't know a way around the dilution issue of topping off. You could of course make a smaller batch, or do a split boil.

Well, what do you mean by loss of efficiency, what is that?

I'm not sure why IBUs would max out. If I was boiling out the acid in the hops, wouldnt it be the same thing as concentration? Wouldnt it be more concentrated and bitter with say 5G worth of hops in the 3G post boil, which would be corrected when topped off? I'm just thinking in terms of concentrations, so I must be missing something.

 

[chickypad]

Efficiency refers to how well you are extracting sugar from the grain. Normally for a 5 gal batch you would be mashing that grain in the whole amount of water (or mashing with some and sparging with the rest - so rinsing out more sugars). When topping off with plain water you lose those extra sugars. When brewing all grain it's helpful to know your own efficiency so you can adjust recipes to hit the right target OG. See link below.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

As I understand there is a limit to the isomerization of alpha acids in boiling wort (I've seen people talk about a limit around 100). If that is true and you brew a 2.5 gal batch then top off with 2.5 gals then you will only have about 50 IBU. I don't know if these numbers are exact, but you can search around and read more about it. You will certainly find examples of people brewing topped off batches that they report don't taste bitter enough - it happened to me when I brewed extract.

 

[Dabba]

Efficiency refers to how well you are extracting sugar from the grain. Normally for a 5 gal batch you would be mashing that grain in the whole amount of water (or mashing with some and sparging with the rest - so rinsing out more sugars). When topping off with plain water you lose those extra sugars. When brewing all grain it's helpful to know your own efficiency so you can adjust recipes to hit the right target OG. See link below.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

As I understand there is a limit to the isomerization of alpha acids in boiling wort (I've seen people talk about a limit around 100). If that is true and you brew a 2.5 gal batch then top off with 2.5 gals then you will only have about 50 IBU. I don't know if these numbers are exact, but you can search around and read more about it. You will certainly find examples of people brewing topped off batches that they report don't taste bitter enough - it happened to me when I brewed extract.

Thanks for the info. So it seems I can up my efficiency by thinner mashes and longer mash times, say 90-120 mins?

I'll research the hop thing, but that is interesting. I suppose the solution to that would be to "top off" to 4.5G or the maximum I feel comfortable boiling in the kettle pre-boil with preheated water, and then doing the boil with that and topping off at the end, hopefully only needing to add a gallon or less. Still would reduce IBUs but not as much.

 

[chickypad]

Agreed, if you're only topping off a little should be less of an effect. When I had trouble achieving good bitterness it was topping off big IPA's with like 2.5 gals. As far as efficiency, the things you describe might help with mash efficiency but it won't help with lauter efficiency which is probably the biggest factor with large grainbills. Kai's "troubleshooting efficiency" page is another helpful read.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[Jawbox0]

I have trouble doing five gallons of anything imperial in a 8 gallon kettle. I'd suggest a smaller batch size if you are going big. If I'm making a DIPA or something bigger, I just scale down to like 4 gallons or whatever works.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Is there any way to compensate for that if say I wanted to do an imperial ipa?

Smaller kettles and topping off will result in a less efficient process. Huge beers like an imperial IPA also have a lower efficiency due to having less water per pound of grain, and your absorbed water being high gravity.

5 gallons AG huge beer in a 5 gallon kettle would be approaching mathematically impossible.

I would reduce batch size.

 

[Morrey]

I think you have two choices based on your goals:

1-Reduce your batch size
2-Increase your kettle size

Most logic is that a 10G kettle is about right for an average 5G full strike volume BIAB batch....or roughly double kettle volume vs batch size. Factor in that your goals are not an average batch since it requires large amounts of grains. Personally, if I was doing your proposed beer, I'd go with a 15G kettle, but that's just me wanting some room to spare. As stated previously, overcrowding leads to efficiency issues.

If a larger kettle is not in your future, and a 5G kettle is your final answer, I think a 2 gallon batch is reasonable for you to consider. As a new brewer, you want a good first experience so you will have a continued interest in brewing. This is a tough beer to start with BTW.

 

[Dabba]

I think you have two choices based on your goals:

1-Reduce your batch size
2-Increase your kettle size

Most logic is that a 10G kettle is about right for an average 5G full strike volume BIAB batch....or roughly double kettle volume vs batch size. Factor in that your goals are not an average batch since it requires large amounts of grains. Personally, if I was doing your proposed beer, I'd go with a 15G kettle, but that's just me wanting some room to spare. As stated previously, overcrowding leads to efficiency issues.

If a larger kettle is not in your future, and a 5G kettle is your final answer, I think a 2 gallon batch is reasonable for you to consider. As a new brewer, you want a good first experience so you will have a continued interest in brewing. This is a tough beer to start with BTW.

Was just speaking theoretically. My next beer is going to be an English Strong Ale. Beyond that I'm not sure. I'm not too big on IPAs because there are plenty around here to buy but not much else so I'm brewing other styles for variety. I may try a trippel next, but eventually I'm looking to do a rauschbier which means I will need to upgrade the kettle..

 

[Morrey]

Was just speaking theoretically. My next beer is going to be an English Strong Ale. Beyond that I'm not sure. I'm not too big on IPAs because there are plenty around here to buy but not much else so I'm brewing other styles for variety. I may try a trippel next, but eventually I'm looking to do a rauschbier which means I will need to upgrade the kettle..

Totally understand. You are feeling your way into brewing at this point and seeing what you'll need to accomplish your brewing goals.

It would be unwise to invest, at least in my opinion, significant dollars into equipment prior to find out that you don't like brewing. If you love it, you'll gradually want to increase the quality of your gear and hone in your process accordingly. I will add that BIAB suits my needs well even though I have 3V equipment also.

Take your time, invest wisely and ask lots of questions as you are doing now.

 

[Dabba]

Thanks man. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions

 

[jcaggiano]

My first big beer was a Deschuttes Black Butte knock off I found. I did it in a 16 qt seafood pot (cheap ceramic coated thingy). I added a can (3.3 lbs) of LME and the specialty grains. After the boil I realized I missed my gravity by a lot. I was planning to do another batch that weekend but decided to dump another can of LME in and boil for another 10 minutes.

At the time I was using a 3 gallon carboy so I actually only ended up with around 2.5 gallons finished.

I kept topping off with pre-boiled water to keep my volume up. At the end of it I ended up lucky! It was such a good porter and if I remember correctly the abv was somewhere around 8.5.

You can do big beers in small kettles but you have to sacrifice the volume. Now way around it. Just call it your "limited release"!

 

[DrunkenCanuck]

I got an 8 gallon recently and you pretty much have to sparge your grain, depending on how much grain you are using. I had 14 lbs of grain for 5 gallons and I started with 16 Liters of water (about 3 gallons) for my initial mash, and had to move it out because with the grain and the water, it got close to the top of my kettle. I saw some videos where you could just sparge in a bucket, so I grabbed my 5 gallon pail and hauled the bag up out of the kettle, strained it and set it down into the bucket before pouring my sparge water over it. I wound up with about 7 gallons of wort pre boil, which is what you want because a lot of it boils off over an hour. I had about 6 gallons but due to some hops not breaking down entirely, I was able to get my 5 gallons without dragging a bit of hop sludge from the bottom of the kettle.