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DoubleFisted

DoubleFisted

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Joined
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Location
Muscatine
So I have been brewing for sometime now and have been hurdling the hoops of starting a small brewery in my back yard. I know there are a lot of people out there that are going to say that ABD will not allow it. Well tough I have already got approved to do it. :mug:

This is merely just a hobby as I would keep my full time job. I work three days a week and have the rest of the week to ponder thoughts as I do not have any hobbies besides brewing beer and flying. I built a 25 foot by 20 foot building and will be putting air and heat in there as well. I have recieved many grants mainly because of my service time in the Air Force. So what I am going to do with this money now is buy a brew magic system and their chill wizard. I also plan to buy around 30 kegs from sabco to start off. I have 17 bars in this area that already said they would buy my product. I probably won't be able to keep up with production but I have around 4-5 grand to spend on fermenters. So my question is does anybody have any suggestions about fermenters, I have seen nano breweries using the blue 55 gallon plastic drums. Do you think this would work efficiently? Also pitching yeast on a larger scale, I have always just used WYeast vials, and this probably isn't a good way to go with a small brewery. Should I start trying to yield my own yeast ? or try to get an account with WYeast?

Any suggestions would help, and no naysayers please. Like I said it is all just a hobby I am really not losing money with the amount of grants that I have got.
 
I'd hardly call it "just a hobby" with the ambitions you just described. You are definitely going to be in it for the long haul with the money and time you are going to invest. I don't have any suggestions or anything since I do 5g and 2.5g batches about once or twice a month. I would never try to explain fractions to Albert Einstein.

But for the love of all that is holy we would LOVE to see some pictures of your backyard brewery. Don't worry I'm not a naysayer, but I do wish you luck my friend. Multiply your quantity for everything by 2. For some reason it seems like 30 kegs and 55 gallon plastic drums won't be enough to support 17 bars with backups.
 
Sounds cool... especially if you've cleared licensing which seems to be the biggest hurdle for most. As you go pro, I'd probably ditch Jiminy from the logo ... Disney has hordes of laywers looking for things to do.

If I were you, I'd try to find some sort of fermenter with temp control. The drums could work if they are food safe and contained in a chilled room ... although I imagine that much beer will get hot pretty quick. If you're going to be pitching successive batches of yeast, a conical is the way to go for ease in harvesting.
 
My advice would be conicals at the very least the big plastic ones. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=25197&catid=513

However if you plan on doing this and all the cleaning. I'd be looking at buying some SS conicals as soon as you could get them. That way you can do CIP with caustic after a batch and then rinse with sani before you throw more beer in for a new ferment.
 
Hi Muscatine, Iowa! Congrats on getting approved! We are a restaurant/brewpub in Ottumwa, and brew on a very small scale (200 gallons per month). We had someone else set up our brewing area, and they got us the 30 gallon plastic conicals. They are very unwieldy to clean, and get scratched easily. We ditched those, and debated between stainless conicals and Better Bottles. Because we are so small, I went with the Better Bottles, and love them. It sounds like the stainless conicals might work better for the volume you are planning on.

We also have the Sabco Brew Magic, and it is OK. I use it in two ways. One, as designed for all grain, which is about a 5 hour process for 15 gallons. Two, as a three burner system for extract brewing, which produces 30 to 35 gallons in about 3 hours.

And I agree about needing more kegs for 17 bars - we only service our own restaurant, and have 40+ kegs (5 gallon).

Nice meeting you here, and good luck!
 
Yeah I know once it completely becomes official I am going to change my logo. I have a really good rootbeer that I call hairy sasquatch so I thought it would be cool to have a sasquatch double fisting some beers but i am not completely sure what to do with a logo and not completely sold on Double Fisted Brewery either because so many people look at it in a sexual sense. Also appanooserapids I would love to come see your brewery if it were possible? I actually fly there quite often and they have a courtesy vehicle. Would you allow me to do some brewing with you sometime? I would love to see the brew magic in action. I see you say you are brewing maybe Sunday? I would love to come Sunday if you would have me?
 
Awesome that you can do this as a part time gig. I'd personally steer clear of plastic for a commercial operation as the other poster mentioned. On a home brewing level they are easy to clean without scratching, I would imagine when you get to the larger sizes they would be difficult to do without wasting tons of water and cleaning agents.

Also from all my reading and building (finished my second system recently) I think the Brew Magic is not as magical as it once was. I think for less money you can build or buy systems that will do more for less.

Good luck with your venture - sounds like a blast!
 
You, sir, are my new hero. Keep us posted on your progress/hurdles as I could see myself doing this several years down the line.
 
ABD and the county doesn't care to see homebuilt systems and will mostly not give you the approval or license. Do you have any other suggestions for a brew system?
 
DoubleFisted said:
ABD and the county doesn't care to see homebuilt systems and will mostly not give you the approval or license. Do you have any other suggestions for a brew system?
Click to expand...

http://conical-fermenter.com/products/ - seems to get great reviews and I'd consider combining that equipment with a BCS Control which is easy to program and extremely flexible for growth purposes. If your not good with that kind of programming, the owner will configure the system at a reasonable price. I like this kind of front end because you can replace the vessels with larger ones and still keep the BCS controlling everything.

I can't imagine brewing for 17 outlets using only a 3 keggle system, it will wear you out pretty fast IMO and you will be looking for a new system within a few months of production. Do the math, how many kegs does each bar/outlet go through in a week? How many hours a day can you brew?
 
DoubleFisted said:
ABD and the county doesn't care to see homebuilt systems and will mostly not give you the approval or license. Do you have any other suggestions for a brew system?
Click to expand...

I think you are going to want something bigger, probably at least 1 BBL, maybe 2. I know it's just a hobby, BUT you won't spend much more time brewing multiples of what that little system can do. Here's an example of an electric system that is professionally designed and should help with your local inspectors. I have no affiliation or experience with them, but their partner, Stout Tanks, has a good reputation on here. I recently ordered a fermenter from them.

http://www.brewmation.com./2bbl.html

http://conical-fermenter.com/products/2-bbl-systems/
 
I love the conical fermenter website but I do they not brew on a stand? I am not familiar with the bigger systems, since it is only going to be me I would like a system that has software with it because it would be like having an assistant.
 
bigger systesm aren't genneraly on a stand it seems. They're usually individual tanks with hard plumbing between them. The floor of the facility is the stand.
 
Double,

Just closed on my building on Thursday. Getting ready to get busy. For brew systems look at psychobrew, or pinup brewing. They both seem quite a bit cheaper than sabco. I think Pinup is here in the vendor category. I'm leaning to psychobrew as they have bigger systems.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Monnie
 
Just about everyone is cheaper than Sabco. If you have a business license you can probably get accounts with the wholesalers to get things much cheaper like the kegs.
 
A suggestion: If you're shipping kegs, DO NOT BUY YOUR OWN. It's a nightmare. Use Microstar. PLEASE use Microstar. Otherwise you'll spend all your time chasing your bloody kegs. Trust me. ;)

Cheers,

Bob
 
Bob said:
A suggestion: If you're shipping kegs, DO NOT BUY YOUR OWN. It's a nightmare. Use Microstar. PLEASE use Microstar. Otherwise you'll spend all your time chasing your bloody kegs. Trust me. ;)

Cheers,

Bob
Click to expand...

Is this just for shipping across state and U.S.? Or can you purchase kegs through them as well?
 
No. You don't purchase kegs AT ALL. You pay MicroStar a small fee for each keg you get from them, essentially renting cooperage. Here's how it works, in simple terms:

1. Get kegs from Microstar.
2. You fill the kegs with beer.
3. You deliver kegs to accounts and tell MicroStar how many kegs you sent where.
4. Microstar ships you more kegs, so you always have empty cooperage in house.

That's it. They handle the rest!

The biggest headache for you will be managing cooperage. Kegs are expensive. Nobody cares whose kegs are whose; the guy(s) who service the pubs with beers NOT yours will mistakenly take (not to say pinch) your empty kegs, and you'll never see them again.

With MicroStar, you don't have to worry about that. MicroStar kegs eventually come back to MicroStar, and they have enough kegs to keep you supplied.

From the MicroStar website:

Once the full kegs are shipped to the wholesaler, the administrative responsibilities associated with keg management are eliminated for MicroStar clients. The brewery ships full kegs to the wholesaler, and notifies MicroStar of the shipment. MicroStar takes care of retrieving and returning empty kegs to the brewery to make orders.
Click to expand...

Please note I don't have any interest in MicroStar other than being a very, very satisfied customer. ;)

Bob
 
Bob said:
No. You don't purchase kegs AT ALL. You pay MicroStar a small fee for each keg you get from them, essentially renting cooperage. Here's how it works, in simple terms:

1. Get kegs from Microstar.
2. You fill the kegs with beer.
3. You deliver kegs to accounts and tell MicroStar how many kegs you sent where.
4. Microstar ships you more kegs, so you always have empty cooperage in house.

That's it. They handle the rest!

The biggest headache for you will be managing cooperage. Kegs are expensive. Nobody cares whose kegs are whose; the guy(s) who service the pubs with beers NOT yours will mistakenly take (not to say pinch) your empty kegs, and you'll never see them again.

With MicroStar, you don't have to worry about that. MicroStar kegs eventually come back to MicroStar, and they have enough kegs to keep you supplied.

From the MicroStar website:

Please note I don't have any interest in MicroStar other than being a very, very satisfied customer. ;)

Bob
Click to expand...

Are you able to tell me how much you spend per keg? I'm thinking about getting a bigger system and may tAke a small loan out. The bank wants to know how my income will be per keg.
 
Sorry, I think pinup is his avatar here. The site is here http://www.brewersequipment.com/ I have no relation to either one, just the 2 systems I am looking at.

With Microstar, what is the minimum qty per month now? I talked to them about a year ago, and remember it being like 200 half kegs a month. That is a lot of 2 or 3 barrel brews. I pretty much figured I would have buy new, as used ones get snapped up very quickly. Plastic is $80'ish, and stainless $135'ish. I can't find it in my notes, but think microstar is $10-12 per fill. And I believe they come to you directly from the distributor (uncleaned). If they were clean, it would be a no brainer, saving capital on kegs and the keg washer, not to mention time.
 
IIRC, what you pay per keg is dependent on volume. Of course you'll pay less if you're taking an entire tractor-trailer load. ;)

They are returned to you dirty, yes. Cleaning kegs really doesn't take all that long if you've a keg cleaner, and if you don't have a keg cleaner UR DOIN IT RONG. :D

Cheers,

Bob
 
monnie said:
Sorry, I think pinup is his avatar here. The site is here http://www.brewersequipment.com/ I have no relation to either one, just the 2 systems I am looking at.

With Microstar, what is the minimum qty per month now? I talked to them about a year ago, and remember it being like 200 half kegs a month. That is a lot of 2 or 3 barrel brews. I pretty much figured I would have buy new, as used ones get snapped up very quickly. Plastic is $80'ish, and stainless $135'ish. I can't find it in my notes, but think microstar is $10-12 per fill. And I believe they come to you directly from the distributor (uncleaned). If they were clean, it would be a no brainer, saving capital on kegs and the keg washer, not to mention time.
Click to expand...

The other thing about microstar that I've seen is that they come not just dirty but REALLY dirty. A lot of breweries have adhesive keg collars and well they don't get cleaned in a reasonable amount of time. I've seen some very impressive mold growth under the keg cap and sometimes they dry out to the point that it takes some nice scraping to clean. The kegs sit around longer than ones you'd own yourself would sit around.
 
Bob said:
IIRC, what you pay per keg is dependent on volume. Of course you'll pay less if you're taking an entire tractor-trailer load. ;)

They are returned to you dirty, yes. Cleaning kegs really doesn't take all that long if you've a keg cleaner, and if you don't have a keg cleaner UR DOIN IT RONG. :D

Cheers,

Bob
Click to expand...

I find that keg cleaners are about 5 thousand dollars. Is there cheaper ones? Or ways to make your own?
 
I will most certaintly do that. I am still probably 6 months out before you will actually see products in the bars. I have found another building that I may do instead of the "backyard" brewery.
 
DoubleFisted said:
I find that keg cleaners are about 5 thousand dollars. Is there cheaper ones? Or ways to make your own?
Click to expand...

There are a bunch of ways to make your own.

The intent is to clean. To do that, you must:

1. Purge the CO2 and old beer. Purging and dumping are easily done with an old Sankey coupler. Put the keg on its side and tap it. When pressure is bled off, invert the keg, then hit it with a hot-water rinse. Drain.

2. Use a high-pressure pump to force cleaning solution into the inverted keg. The hot cleanser should recirculate to the cleanser's specifications. Rinse.

3. Sanitize with another recirculation and a different relatively high-pressure pump.

4. Purge with CO2 and pressurize.

You can make your own with a used stainless double sink from a restaurant supply equipment dealer, some plumbing, and a couple of pumps. For the hot caustic rinse, you'll need a high-pressure pump. For the sanitizer, you can use a submersible pump from a place like Lowe's; just make sure to get a unit powerful enough to shoot a jet.

The idea is to force the solution and rinse water up through the inverted keg's stem, so the stream hits the bottom (or top, when the keg is inverted) and covers the entire interior surface of the keg. The solution drains out the "gas in" port of the coupler (don't forget to remove the check valve!).

You can plumb a manifold to get water into the keg. I made one where the caustic recirculated in one side of the double sink. The sink drain connected to the input of a CIP pump, with the pump's output going to the "beer out" fitting of a Sankey coupler. The other sink had sanitizer and a submersible pump (IIRC, it was a pretty stout sump pump...). The sanitizer side had a manifold of valves for cold water and sanitizer.

In order, I did the following:

1. Clean the exterior of the keg with caustic. Rinse.
2. Release the internal pressure with a loose Sankey coupler. When pressure drops, invert the keg to drain old beer.
3. When drained, connect keg to coupler connected to hot water; the "gas out" fitting on the coupler has a drain hose which leads to the old-beer discard point (that may or may not be the floor drain; depends on your local codes). Rinse until no more scunge comes out.
4. Disconnect keg, move to caustic side. Connect coupler to keg and invert. "Beer out" fitting of coupler is connected to centrifugal pump output. "Gas in" fitting is disconnected, to drain into the sink. Recirculate according to cleanser recommendations.
5. Stop pump, let drain. When drained, move back to rinse fitting. Rinse.
6. Connect sanitizer fitting, invert over sanitizer sink. Recirculate until sanitizer specifications are met. Drain (and perhaps rinse, depending on specs).
7. Remove from contraption, set upright, and purge with CO2 at 5psi. Connect CO2 to "beer out" fitting, and let "gas in" unrestricted. A few seconds is usually sufficient.
8. Lather, rinse, repeat until all kegs are clean.

Once you get a good flow going, you can have a keg going at each stage. Makes it simple.

Any more Qs, let me know!

Bob
 
joety said:
Based on that, I don't think you need Microstar. You should be able to keep a handle on those 17 bars. Just find a cheap source for kegs.

I have relatives in Blue Grass. Next time I am in the QC area, I'd love to visit. I like how your business plan is developing.
Click to expand...

Yea, might take 15 minutes to get from one side to the other of Muscatine.

Speaking of Blue Grass, might want to talk to the Corner Pub they just built on Mississippi Ave, they serve a lot of the local brews.
 
Bob said:
Born and raised in central PA, currently living as far east in PA as you can go before you swim to NJ. Why?

Bob
Click to expand...

Just curious if you were close to me so that I could take my small plane and visit your brewery and chat.

Another note I have talked to uncle harleys in blue grass and they are interested. I have hit a minor bump in the road yesterday which I have found out thus far happens on a regular basis.
 

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