New Kettle, first bag, first 10 Gallon batch.

[Troxs]

Recently I purchased, as some may know, a new 20gal Anvil kettle and a Wilser bag. This will be my first recipe (to follow below) created for a 10gal batch, and also my first shot at BIAB, which I am looking forward to mastering.

My current concerns, and let me know if I am right or not, are volumes, temperature loss during mash, and efficiency. With a new technique, new kettle, and new batch size, I'm basically fist fighting in the dark. My estimated stats (for BeerSmith) are as follows:

11 Gallon Batch (10 Gallon to the kegs)

• Boil off - 1.5gal/hour
• Loss to Trub and Chiller - 1 gallon
• Fermenter Loss - 1 gallon
• Efficiency - 72%

Are these numbers far out of whack? The only one I'm truly worried about is the boil off rate. This first recipe is a Hefe, and therefore will need a 90 minute boil with the pilsner malt. The gallon loss from kettle to conical is a bit high, but I don't think that'll be a huge problem -- better to be high than under in case boil off is higher than expected. Fermenter loss is my norm, so not worried there. Efficiency on the other hand is a tricky one. On my 3 vessel 5 gallon system I ran about 75% - 80% and since I hear BIAB can lead to lower efficiency I wanted to drop it down a bit, but not a ton to where I miss my numbers drastically.

The only other concern I have (and this isn't really a BIAB specific question, but since I'm here I might as well ask) is my yeast starter. I purchased a stir plate as I plan to begin using starters. I'm looking to have a higher banana flavor from my yeast, so I'm planning to do a simple 1L - 1.5L if the yeast is older than expected - starter with stir plate and underpitch to stress my yeast. Should I make the starter cold crash, decant, swirl and pitch, or pitch 12-24 hours at high activity?

...and the recipe: JackShaw Hefe v1.0

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 14.75 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 10.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 8.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.5 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

• 2 tbsp - pH Stabilizer
• 10 lbs - Pilsner Malt
• 10 lbs - Wheat Malt
• 1 lbs - Munich Malt
• 8 oz - Carawheat
• 4 oz - Cara 45
• 1 oz Hallertau (90 min addition)
• .5 tsp - Irish Moss
• 1 pkg - Weihenstephan Weizen (wYeast Labs #3068)

 

[BeardedBrews]

Regarding numbers - I think you're in the right ballpark. You should expect to see a cloudier wort with more grain related trub than you would have seen in your 3v system. When you lift the bag you can squeeze as much or as little as needed to hit the pre-boil volume. Same with the boil-off rate, eyeball the volume at 30-45 minutes and then adjust the heat for the second half of the boil. If you've got an hour or two to kill you could always boil 10 gallons of water for a while and see what your real rate is.

On the yeast topic, I have been making a full 2L starter and then saving 500mL in a jar to use in my next starter. I'd say your cell count is right to 'stress' the yeast, but you will want to oxygenate well to avoid a stall. Higher fermentation temperatures will probably be in order.

On the recipe side, I haven't heard many people reporting success with pH stabilizer, but your mileage may vary. I don't know what your water looks like, but for my system I would need to include some acid for a grain bill that light. Since you were running AG 3v before I'll just assume you've got the water chemistry handled

 

[oujens]

Not sure how you crush your grains, but that much wheat malt could lead to a drop in efficiency if you are not able to crush tighter on those kernels. I've experienced efficiency issues because of this (small kernels not crushed fine enough on LHBS mill). For BIAB, I now crush at the finest setting with my own mill so I don't experience these issues with wheat malt any more.

People have learned that pH stabilizer is worthless. You can read about it on the Brew Science board. Toss it and learn how to utilize acid additions (acid malt, lactic acid, etc.). The water chemistry primer can give you some insight.

 

[Troxs]

I honestly haven't worried about water chemistry with my 3v system, but typically hit good numbers. I'm planning to send a sample off for testing to get a grip of what I am working with soon. I was going to use the pH stabilizer in the mean time, while I learn more about it.

I do plan to boil some water/PBW before brew day to clean the new pot, so perhaps I'll get a better idea then of my volumes.

Thanks

Edit: do you think not focusing on my water chemistry will be a key factor in lower efficiency? I have the brew day set up for January 28th - my birthday is the 25th, and I always brew a birthday batch. I can't miss the date.

 

[brew703]

Are you using tap water? I don't know about yours but my tap water sucks and I'm south of you.

I've been using filtered and distilled mixed 50/50 but I only brew 3 gallon batches. That could get expensive for you.

If you haven't checked out Bru N Water's spreadsheet, check it out. it's helpful for ph and additions for water.

For me, boil off is between .9-1 gal per hour but it depends on the humidity. And for efficiency, I avg around 75% (BIAB).

 

[Troxs]

Are you using tap water? I don't know about yours but my tap water sucks and I'm south of you.

I've been using filtered and distilled mixed 50/50 but I only brew 3 gallon batches. That could get expensive for you.

If you haven't checked out Bru N Water's spreadsheet, check it out. it's helpful for ph and additions for water.

For me, boil off is between .9-1 gal per hour but it depends on the humidity. And for efficiency, I avg around 75% (BIAB).

My water isn't terrible (St. Charles Parish). I haven't had any issue in the past with my water, but then again I can't miss something I've never had.

I'll check the spreadsheet out, but at the moment I'm not sure how much it'll help without know what is coming from the taps. Maybe I'll try to call the water plant here and see what information they can offer.

 

[oujens]

Brun water has some good info on the 5.2 stabilzer. One thing is that it adds sodium to your beer, so the amount you add and the amount present in your water could create a profile undesirable for your beer. Do you have access to RO water while you wait on your water report? I use RO all the time and it makes the water chemistry much easier. Blank slate so it makes it much easier to control your water profile and resulting mash pH. RO with some acid and calcium chloride would do the trick for your Hefe. RO is a great choice if your tap water can vary a lot.

 

[Troxs]

Brun water has some good info on the 5.2 stabilzer. One thing is that it adds sodium to your beer, so the amount you add and the amount present in your water could create a profile undesirable for your beer. Do you have access to RO water while you wait on your water report? I use RO all the time and it makes the water chemistry much easier. Blank slate so it makes it much easier to control your water profile and resulting mash pH. RO with some acid and calcium chloride would do the trick for your Hefe. RO is a great choice if your tap water can vary a lot.

I have access to RO, but not in bulk. I'd basically have to buy 18 gallons from the store, and that could get a little costly. I'm contacting my water plant to see if that can give me the numbers that Bru'n Water is asking. Perhaps it'll help me to at least decide if I wish to add the stabilizer or not.

EDIT: I was thinking distilled, not sure about RO

 

[oujens]

I have access to RO, but not in bulk. I'd basically have to buy 18 gallons from the store, and that could get a little costly. I'm contacting my water plant to see if that can give me the numbers that Bru'n Water is asking. Perhaps it'll help me to at least decide if I wish to add the stabilizer or not.

EDIT: I was thinking distilled, not sure about RO

My local grocery store has a Glacier RO machine that costs $1.75 for 5 gallons. I prefer to save as much as I can, but for me the 10 gallons I need is worth it for my sanity. If you need more than that I can see there being additional cost and logistics to consider. Thought I would throw that out there for consideration.

 

[Troxs]

My local grocery store has a Glacier RO machine that costs $1.75 for 5 gallons. I prefer to save as much as I can, but for me the 10 gallons I need is worth it for my sanity. If you need more than that I can see there being additional cost and logistics to consider. Thought I would throw that out there for consideration.

I could see spending $7 for RO water to make life a little easier, but I'm not really sure I've seen a machine anywhere nearby. I'm in a small rural area for the most part. Bayou Land, if you will.

 

[Soyben]

I agree about the wheat malt that it will hurt your efficiency, if you are using the LHBS crush I would adjust the efficiency to 65%.

Also if you are planning to use the same yeast frequently saving 500ml from your starter is really good idea as well.

 

[brew703]

I could see spending $7 for RO water to make life a little easier, but I'm not really sure I've seen a machine anywhere nearby. I'm in a small rural area for the most part. Bayou Land, if you will.

I think Franks has a water machine- 5 gal for a $1. don't think it's RO but it is filtered. I've used filtered water before and add gypsum and calcium chloride and it worked fine. I fine using filtered and distilled mixed works best for me.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I do ten gallon batches.
You forgot grain absorption loss which is around a gallon maybe less for a 20 to 25 # grain bill. Not sure what chiller loss means..Forget trub loss. Suck every ounce out of the BK into the fermenter. Trub does not harm/off flavors and gains you beer without trying to figure trub loss.
Don't sweat the volume numbers. I always start at around 14 gallons,mash pull the grain and measure wort.Then add a ballpark number to get to pre boil levels. Then after the boil check wort level and adjust for final amount before transferring. It will take one or two brews to learn how your system will work. But I would start with 14 gallons tap water and youll be close.
Does your brew kettle have water level markings?
Leave the lid on your BK during the mash it makes a HUGE difference in retaining heat. I have my strike water temp around 156. Lift the bag at mash out and let it hang to drain for 30 minutes or so then squeeze the crap out of it to get out as much sugary goodness as possible.
You don't need a mega full blown boil,youll loose a ton of water over an hour. lower the heat till you have a nice low rolling boil

 

[Troxs]

I think Franks has a water machine- 5 gal for a $1. don't think it's RO but it is filtered. I've used filtered water before and add gypsum and calcium chloride and it worked fine. I fine using filtered and distilled mixed works best for me.

Frank in Des Allemands off of 90? I can swing by later today to check it out. I work in LaRose, so I can even check the one here to see, but I don't remember ever seeing an RO machine.

 

[brew703]

Frank in Des Allemands off of 90? I can swing by later today to check it out. I work in LaRose, so I can even check the one here to see, but I don't remember ever seeing an RO machine.

Yep right pass the bridge. I think it may be an ice machine/water machine combo. I have one up the road from my house and that's what I use.
There's probably one in Larose some place on LA1 or 308.
I don't think it's RO. The one by my house says "filtered" so that could mean any number of things.

Also Wal-Mart has a machine inside that you can get water. I think it's like .33/gal or something like that. Glacier Bay maybe. It doesn't specifically say RO so it too may be "filtered".

 

[BeardedBrews]

You should be able to get a pretty good water report from the city, even if the data is old:

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3118/pdf/fs2014-3118.pdf

On page 5 I'd say you have pretty nice water for brewing, but you will probably still want some acid addition. I was never able to get my head around the Bru'n Water, something just didn't click.

I've been happy with this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

To your question about hitting numbers, my mash efficiency went up when I got my mash pH around 5.3, and my flavors improved when I got my Chloride and Sulfate in line using CaCl and Gypsum.

It is very easy to get overwhelmed by water chemistry, which is why awesome threads like this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ include the "rule of thumb"

1 tsp CaCl per 5 gallons, some acid malt or acid additive, and some gypsum if you're going hoppy.

 

[Troxs]

You should be able to get a pretty good water report from the city, even if the data is old:

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3118/pdf/fs2014-3118.pdf

On page 5 I'd say you have pretty nice water for brewing, but you will probably still want some acid addition. I was never able to get my head around the Bru'n Water, something just didn't click.

I've been happy with this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

To your question about hitting numbers, my mash efficiency went up when I got my mash pH around 5.3, and my flavors improved when I got my Chloride and Sulfate in line using CaCl and Gypsum.

It is very easy to get overwhelmed by water chemistry, which is why awesome threads like this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ include the "rule of thumb"

1 tsp CaCl per 5 gallons, some acid malt or acid additive, and some gypsum if you're going hoppy.

Awesome find... now all I truly need is to find the Bicarbonate and can at least use the water calculator in BS2. Thank you!

I have some Lactic acid that I plan to add, as well as a campden tablet to kill the chloramines.

 

[Troxs]

You should be able to get a pretty good water report from the city, even if the data is old:

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3118/pdf/fs2014-3118.pdf

On page 5 I'd say you have pretty nice water for brewing, but you will probably still want some acid addition. I was never able to get my head around the Bru'n Water, something just didn't click.

I've been happy with this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

To your question about hitting numbers, my mash efficiency went up when I got my mash pH around 5.3, and my flavors improved when I got my Chloride and Sulfate in line using CaCl and Gypsum.

It is very easy to get overwhelmed by water chemistry, which is why awesome threads like this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ include the "rule of thumb"

1 tsp CaCl per 5 gallons, some acid malt or acid additive, and some gypsum if you're going hoppy.

Ok, so I entered the numbers from the link you've provided, and Bru'n Water is telling me my numbers out of balance. I assume it is because of the high Bicarbonate. Which I figured was extremely high myself, but unless I'm reading this wrong it appears the CaCO3 (Hardness) is presented as mg/L and with a CaCO3 of 150 and pH of 7.6 I'm showing 182.3 from the Bru'n Water calulator as my Bicarbonate.

 

[oujens]

Ok, so I entered the numbers from the link you've provided, and Bru'n Water is telling me my numbers out of balance. I assume it is because of the high Bicarbonate. Which I figured was extremely high myself, but unless I'm reading this wrong it appears the CaCO3 (Hardness) is presented as mg/L and with a CaCO3 of 150 and pH of 7.6 I'm showing 182.3 from the Bru'n Water calulator as my Bicarbonate.

Hardness is not the same as bicarbonate. It looks like the report does not provide bicarbonate or alkalinity to help you with your pH estimate. The Brun Water water knowledge page on the website shows hardness is determined on the amount of Calcium and Magnesium present in the water. There is a pool test kit that could help you estimate bicarbonate if you can get your hands on it:

https://www.amazon.com/API-GH-KH-Test-Kit/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=pd_lpo_199_bs_lp_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=FW8REN6PC85XPZTJKNST

 

[Early8]

I do what I call a hybrid partial mash BIAB with about 10 lbs of grains and a DME spike (6-7 lbs.) to hit my targets for a double batch. I Brew in the 1.040 to 1.050 range mostly. Your numbers look reasonable to me. I have a 20 gallon boilermaker. I start my boil just under 14 gallons and depending on how greedy I am I get 2 full cornys from 2 6.5 gallon carboy fermenters. I am not particularly imperical about it, but it makes me happy, and I hit my targets. Hope this helps.

 

[Early8]

BTW, I would love to do an all grain double batch BIAB, but I haven't figured out how to comfortably lift a bag with 20+ lbs. (dry) of wet grains so far. I'm thinking about a ladder with a pulley system but can't stop enjoying the end product long enough to do it.....

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

BTW, I would love to do an all grain double batch BIAB, but I haven't figured out how to comfortably lift a bag with 20+ lbs. (dry) of wet grains so far. I'm thinking about a ladder with a pulley system but can't stop enjoying the end product long enough to do it.....

I built this,easy cheap and works great. I don't use the basket any more and just hoist the bag.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508766

 

[Troxs]

Hardness is not the same as bicarbonate. It looks like the report does not provide bicarbonate or alkalinity to help you with your pH estimate. The Brun Water water knowledge page on the website shows hardness is determined on the amount of Calcium and Magnesium present in the water. There is a pool test kit that could help you estimate bicarbonate if you can get your hands on it:



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SNCHMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That makes sense. Just opened Bru'n water, haven't actually read through and learned the true in and outs yet. I think I'm just going to suck it up and send a lint over to ward labs for a test. It'll take the guess work out.

 

[Troxs]

BTW, I would love to do an all grain double batch BIAB, but I haven't figured out how to comfortably lift a bag with 20+ lbs. (dry) of wet grains so far. I'm thinking about a ladder with a pulley system but can't stop enjoying the end product long enough to do it.....

I bought a rachet tie down/pulley and a fish eye which I have screwed into a beam under my back porch. I'll use a little man power to get it there, but it'll work fine... I hope. If not, I'm totally building the dead man hoist.

 

[BeardedBrews]

BTW, I would love to do an all grain double batch BIAB, but I haven't figured out how to comfortably lift a bag with 20+ lbs. (dry) of wet grains so far. I'm thinking about a ladder with a pulley system but can't stop enjoying the end product long enough to do it.....

The garage door rail can work, just be sure to use a pulley.

If you make a friend you each only have to lift 20lb.

 

[wilserbrewer]

BTW, I would love to do an all grain double batch BIAB, but I haven't figured out how to comfortably lift a bag with 20+ lbs. (dry) of wet grains so far. it.....

I did a 15 gallon BIAB batch this morning in the basement brewery....30 lb grain bill in a 24 gallon kettle. This is close to the max for a simple 1/4" ratchet pulley.

I have found one key to large batch BIAB is a ratcheting pulley type lift as it allows you to slowly bring the bag up a few clicks at a time allowing it to drain and lose some weight as it is exiting the kettle.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I did a 15 gallon BIAB batch this morning in the basement brewery....30 lb grain bill in a 24 gallon kettle. This is close to the max for a simple 1/4" ratchet pulley.

I have found one key to large batch BIAB is a ratcheting pulley type lift as it allows you to slowly bring the bag up a few clicks at a time allowing it to drain and lose some weight as it is exiting the kettle.

That's what nice about this winch. It ratchets up in around 1/2 increments and locks in place for the drain. Nice big handle and its effortless as its meant for something way more than hoisting grain. You can hang it on a bar and slide it away from the kettle or mount it to a beam so its pretty universal

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...1.html&usg=AFQjCNG7aLgqgCPjUWlexWQX6bINn1wwHQ

 

[Early8]

All great approaches! Thanks for sharing them.

 

[Troxs]

There are plenty options to lift grain. I'm using a ratchet tie down for now, but I'll likely switch to a boat winch (living in the south allows for those always hanging around). You could also get a chain fall rather cheap, or if you're fancy you could get a ATV electric winch with remote control.

 

[timdillon36]

There are plenty options to lift grain. I'm using a ratchet tie down for now, but I'll likely switch to a boat winch (living in the south allows for those always hanging around). You could also get a chain fall rather cheap, or if you're fancy you could get a ATV electric winch with remote control.

Just an FYI and not trying to be the safety police but be careful using a winch to lift something. They are usually rated as to what they can pull not as to what they can lift, that's not really a safety concern as if it won't lift it it can't fall on you but the major concern is that it will lift/pull in a controled manor but release/lower free wheel. Not all are the same but if you are using a ratchet strap to lift I think you know what I am referring to.

 

[Troxs]

Just an FYI and not trying to be the safety police but be careful using a winch to lift something. They are usually rated as to what they can pull not as to what they can lift, that's not really a safety concern as if it won't lift it it can't fall on you but the major concern is that it will lift/pull in a controled manor but release/lower free wheel. Not all are the same but if you are using a ratchet strap to lift I think you know what I am referring to.

I know what you mean. Hah. The ATV winch is rated to "pull" 2500 lbs. if mounted overhead, the bag will be just enough weight to add tension when "lowering". Although it's not technically lowering.