Fatgodzilla, Sorry if our discussion of this subject offended you...
Far from offended Kai. I've got extremely thick skin that goes with the thick head. Australians play sport not for fun but to sledge .. we are a weird mob after all. I was expressing my amazement at the depth of the discussion into botulism and how far removed from reality I perceive the threads to be and the Off Topic side bar conversations going on.
In Australian discussions I haven't seen any debate on botulism. We were more concerned about cold breaks, chill haze etc. We just assumed that botulism was not an issue. Aeration is an issue, infection from poor sanitation is an issue. Botulism .. not an issue. You have more chance of botulism as an kit & kilo brewer - add can goo, add sugar, add water, wait till cool then add yeast. Can't see anyone raising that possibility yet.
Let me tell you that there was no intention to discredit the no-chill method. The no-chill method is certainly new to us and it seems that it has been used down under much more extensively including the sale of commercial fresh wort.
Again, a little amazed that America hasn't got fresh wort kits - business opportunity ? Seems UK also in same boat, though an excuse offered is the number of pubs in UK so close to population base.
My intentions are not to banish this method but understand it more fully. From what I know there should be the same risk as canning low acid foods but based on your accounts there is not. So I'd like to expand my knowledge about canning low acid foods.That's why I brought up the botulism thing and would like this discussion to continue.
I hope you read the article I cut/pasted from AHB source - the author is a mate and this offers a simple but concise explanation of the process.
There should be a similiar risk of botulism in canning wort extract - read tins of Coopers, as to the no chill of wort. After all, extract is wort that has been evaporated to remove water. Nothing else differs. The extract is not cooked in the can, as a number of food products are; it is stored in the can. The only logical difference I see is that there will be slightly more air stored in a cube and that the canning line will probably have better sanitary process when compared to a home brewer's shed. To the best of knowledge, no one has ever mentioned botulism and cans of extract.
If it is ok to keep wort in a cube for an extended time, would it also be ok to can hopped starter wort without a pressure cooker?
I assume this is you talking about what I said above .. it's the terminology I can't really decipher. As I see it, the contents of Coopers cans are not pressure cooked. I'll email Coopers directly and see if I can get an answer about how the wort is canned and specifically mention botulism concerns. We'll see what they say.
Cheers