Never Use Pbw Again!!

Yakima 728
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I have used oxyclean since day one, and I use it all over the brewery. After listening to the Brewstrong about cleaners I thought I would give PBW a shot. It actually worked WORSE than oxyclean with my softened water. I think the only advantage to PBW is that it has water softeners in it...but if you have soft water you are wasting your money.
 
Tonedef131 said:
I have used oxyclean since day one, and I use it all over the brewery. After listening to the Brewstrong about cleaners I thought I would give PBW a shot. It actually worked WORSE than oxyclean with my softened water. I think the only advantage to PBW is that it has water softeners in it...but if you have soft water you are wasting your money.
Click to expand...

See, we have REALLY hard water, so we obviously have a water softener to save our washer, dish washer, fixtures etc. from damage. So no we have really SOFT water.

I experienced the same thing, the Oxy cleaned much better in SOFT water than the PBW did. I also used .33 oz/gallon of Oxy as opposed to 1 oz/gallon of the PBW.

I have a thread and experiment running right now on Oxyclean and Copper damage, because I am thinking that it is a myth. My want to check it out.
 
Even in hard water areas for people without a built in water softener, water softening salt is cheap. Surely it would be easy enough to add water softener to the mix?
 
Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
Even in hard water areas for people without a built in water softener, water softening salt is cheap. Surely it would be easy enough to add water softener to the mix?
Click to expand...

Id think so, but they would probably say that $4/pound is worth convenience
 
Adding salt to your water does not softener it. The way a water softener works is that it exchanges the hardness in your water with sodium...not sodium chloride. Adding salt to your water will simply result in brackish water that is just as hard as it was to begin with.
 
I read about OxyClean here but I wanted to make sure I was getting the exact right stuff. When I went to my grocery store they did not have OxyClean...all they had was OxiClean which is obv a different product. I mean, there's just no way there could be multiple threads on this same product with every post in every one of them spelling it with a 'y'; when it's actually spelled with an 'i'. Just no way.

Actually, Pol's avatar DID get it right. :D
 
Tonedef131 said:
Adding salt to your water does not softener it. The way a water softener works is that it exchanges the hardness in your water with sodium...not sodium chloride. Adding salt to your water will simply result in brackish water that is just as hard as it was to begin with.
Click to expand...

I think he meant water softening SALTS... not water softening SALT that you put in a water softener.

Many dishwasher powders have water softeners in them too, so that your dishes come out sparkling.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
I read about OxyClean here but I wanted to make sure I was getting the exact right stuff. When I went to my grocery store they did not have OxyClean...all they had was OxiClean which is obv a different product. I mean, there's just no way there could be multiple threads on this same product with every post in every one of them spelling it with a 'y'; when it's actually spelled with an 'i'. Just no way.

Actually, Pol's avatar DID get it right. :D
Click to expand...

I use OXYclean because I dont waste money on OXIclean.
 
The Pol said:
I think he meant water softening SALTS... not water softening SALT that you put in a water softener.

Many dishwasher powders have water softeners in them too, so that your dishes come out sparkling.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you are right, those would probably work on moderately hard water. I have never seen them for sale independently though, what titles are they sold under?
 
Tonedef131 said:
Perhaps you are right, those would probably work on moderately hard water. I have never seen them for sale independently though, what titles are they sold under?
Click to expand...

My dishwashing powder calls the water softeners:

Soduim Phosphate and Sodium Carbonate
 
Anyone know if oxyclean (after diluted in water) is safe to dump in the lawn. I brew outside away from any actual drain and usualy drain my water in the back lot. Then cleaning is done in the kitchen. I would be nice to be able to do it in place assuming it wouldn't kill the grass.
 
Rooster_P said:
Anyone know if oxyclean (after diluted in water) is safe to dump in the lawn. I brew outside away from any actual drain and usualy drain my water in the back lot. Then cleaning is done in the kitchen. I would be nice to be able to do it in place assuming it wouldn't kill the grass.
Click to expand...

From their FAQ:

Q: Is OxiClean safe for the environment?
A: OxiClean is readily degradable in the environment, when used as directed. OxiClean breaks down into oxygen and soda ash when mixed with ordinary water and uses the tremendous cleaning power of oxygen to remove stains. There are no toxic fumes. Like all cleaning products, it is not to be ingested.



Another point in the FAQ surprised me - don't mix Oxiclean and then store it in a container - use within 6 hours then discard. Seems Oxiclean continues to give off oxygen and they're worried the container might rupture under pressure. Guess they haven't met Mr Airlock yet...:D
 
The Pol said:
Dude, I love that... I want that avatar.
Click to expand...
You got one of the better pics I see - I was trying for one without OC on it - didn't want to have to go fark it up (was takingthe little ones to school...) Use it if you want - that's why I did it :mug:

I'm very glad you brought this discussion/debate up - I've been using Oxiclean Versatile and Star San - and thinking I needed to move to this PBW I've read a lot about. Now I've got a reason to go back to Wally World...ANY money I can save in the brewing process will not go to waste - $$ saved in cleaning = $$ towards more kegs/grain/hops/yeast/propane/CO2/BLC/Motrin (damned Apfelwein! Just one more pint...) :tank:
 
There is an unverified concern that Oxi will though not REMOVE the safe oxide layer on copper, that it causes it to more readily dissolve in wort.

SO far this is what I see sodium metasilicate, (sodium silicate) does.

Corrosion Inhibition
Sodium silicate can be used as a corrosion inhibitor in potable and industrial water. Sodium silicate inhibits corrosion by forming a protective film on metal surfaces that isolates the metal from further corrosive attack. Because soluble silicates are alkaline, moreover, they bring the further benefit of increasing the pH of water. Sodium silicate can be used to inhibit corrosion of cast iron pipes, service lines, and fixtures—to protect the infrastructure and to help water utilities meet the requirements of the lead/copper rule. Selection of silicate for this application depends on the pH and alkalinity of the untreated water.
 
Obvioulsly if I were running a big brewery this stuff would be nice to protect my millins of dollars of plumbing from corrosive attack from all of that wort I am creating...

BUT, IMHO just because it is a corrosion inhibitor does not mean that Oxi, since it doenst INHIBIT corrosion, makes it anyh less safe to use on copper.
 
I use both OC Free and PBW. I've tried the Sun stuff and was really impressed at first, but after soaking some bottles it left this white film that I couldn't rinse off no matter what (someone mentioned an acid wash earlier. Maybe that's what it needed.) My water is really hard, but I have never had that film with Oxyclean.
 
Crossingnierika said:
I use both OC Free and PBW. I've tried the Sun stuff and was really impressed at first, but after soaking some bottles it left this white film that I couldn't rinse off no matter what (someone mentioned an acid wash earlier. Maybe that's what it needed.) My water is really hard, but I have never had that film with Oxyclean.
Click to expand...

Don't know that product, but guessing a vinegar solution would clean it off. Our local version of Oxy leaves a film on my demijohns (carboy-ish thang) which I remove with a vinegar solution. I don't clean bottles with that though, just the demijohns....
 
I recently picked up a big container of PBW for dirt cheap from a place that was closing their doors. I still haven't used it, since I also have a big ol' box of oxyclean that I'm maybe 1/4 of the way through so far.
 
I am thrilled with the PBW. Tap water pH is 9.2 - 9.3 on average. I buy PBW wholesale in 50 pound buckets. With shipping my per gallon cost is around 10 to 15 cents.

I also use it as a Line cleaner.
 
And it's not even 100% it's 30%
Sodium Metasilicate is cheap stuff $1.50 a pound in a 50 pound bag.

I'm sure you can get it in smaller volumes tho.
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Metasilicate.html

I put a natural bristle paint brush in sodium metasilicate solution that was clogged with years and years of old oil paint. The solution strength was maybe a quarter cup of the powder to a quart of water.

It stripped away all the old paint and started to denature the brush. The bristles became permanently limp and without any body. The brush was ruined

The lesson for me was this stuff is strong.
 
MattHollingsworth said:
What's the effect of Oxyclean type cleaners on copper? I currently have a counterflow chilller with copper that needs a strong cleaning after sitting for 7 years and will have to look locally for something to clean it with. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Vinegar will brighten it up
So will muriatic acid in some solution of water.
 
Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
Even in hard water areas for people without a built in water softener, water softening salt is cheap. Surely it would be easy enough to add water softener to the mix?
Click to expand...

No. the saline doesn't really have anything to do with the hardness of the water.

A residential water treatment station can have two principle elements ( one for filtering and hardness and the other for acid remediation). The Acid remediation is a volume filled with either Limestone or magnesium and calcium blend that some folks call "CalMag". The water is percolated through the mineral where the acidity is neutralized. Yes, those minerals end up in the water. Makes you beer taste good too.

The hardness and other filtration issues are addressed by percolating the water through a bed of Zeolite. It's an aluminum compound that has a specific Ionic charge. Minerals and Crap in the water are attracted to it and eventually it becomes so burdened with the crap that it's electrical potential needs to be recharged and the crap rinsed away.
Enter the salt~!!
A saline solution is percolated through the Zeolite bed which reverses the ionic charge returning the zeolite to its original state and water is flushed through the zeolite bed to flush the sale away.
 
a guy I know swears by arm and hammer super washing soda. I couldn't find any info on the box about what is in it, but he says it works great and is cheap. Does anyone know anything about it?
 
I will never use oxy clean again, I left it in a keg and it left the inside with a pitted finish.
I use B-brite or PBW. Not sure why the oxy junk did this to my keg but I could care less as I will not use it ever again.
 
rtockst said:
a guy I know swears by arm and hammer super washing soda. I couldn't find any info on the box about what is in it, but he says it works great and is cheap. Does anyone know anything about it?
Click to expand...

If I see a washing machine tub where the holes are all clogged up, I know what detergent they are using. I'm told if the water is hot enough this isn't a problem.
 
rtockst said:
a guy I know swears by arm and hammer super washing soda. I couldn't find any info on the box about what is in it, but he says it works great and is cheap. Does anyone know anything about it?
Click to expand...
Sodium carbonate CAS # 000497-19-8
 
Brew-boy said:
I will never use oxy clean again, I left it in a keg and it left the inside with a pitted finish.
I use B-brite or PBW. Not sure why the oxy junk did this to my keg but I could care less as I will not use it ever again.
Click to expand...

Good news. It's not pitted. Stainless steel is damaged by acids, but is fairly impervious to bases (Oxyclean = sodium percarbonate = basic). What you think is pitting is actually mineral deposits from where the oxyclean granules landed when you poured it in to the keg. I had the same reaction when I left a solution in a keg for a few days. Vinegar or a diluted muriatic acid solution will remove the spots in seconds. :)
 
The Pol said:
FWIW I have found PBW for $2.60 a pound from MOREFLAVOR.com... which means that it probably isnt in stock. BUT, you have to buy it in a 50 pound bucket AND pay for shipping. IT is only $43 to ship...

So I can get 50 pounds for $3.46/pound which is the BEST price I have found anywhere online.
Click to expand...

Always with the digs, Pol ... :)
 
Hmmm, did a search for sodium percarbonate and came up with this on Amazon:

BioKleen Percarbonate

It's $99.85 for 50lbs and only $9.99 shipping (It's coming from Spokane, WA and I'm in Philly!) Seems like a good deal. there was so spec sheet on their website, so I'm going to email them and ask about the ingredients. I'll keep you posted when I hear back.

Also, they sell by the 500 lb tub. Might be good to get a few people in on a buy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's silly to dick with a 50lb bag of something that you'll use just an ounce or two of every time you brew. Just buy the generic oxiclean from Walmart...buy (2) tubs if you want to always have an extra on-hand. :)
 
GNBrews said:
It's silly to dick with a 50lb bag of something that you'll use just an ounce or two of every time you brew. Just buy the generic oxiclean from Walmart...buy (2) tubs if you want to always have an extra on-hand. :)
Click to expand...

I agree. I would look into pool cleaning supplies store before I bought 50lbs.
 
GNBrews said:
Good news. It's not pitted. Stainless steel is damaged by acids, but is fairly impervious to bases (Oxyclean = sodium percarbonate = basic). What you think is pitting is actually mineral deposits from where the oxyclean granules landed when you poured it in to the keg. I had the same reaction when I left a solution in a keg for a few days. Vinegar or a diluted muriatic acid solution will remove the spots in seconds. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info GNB
 
We use PBW at the brewery because it is a cleaner/sanitizer in one, and because it's powdered, and therefore not quite as annoying to deal with as liquid caustic (splash concentrated caustic on your arm 1/4" above the OSHA-required glove you're wearing as you're measuring it out just ONCE, and that'll be enough to change your mind haha). Plus it's safe on aluminum, so if you accidentally splash it on a piece of equipment that has aluminum parts, you don't have to worry about those parts looking like Swiss cheese in under three minutes.
 

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