Need some help with LME brewing.

[BrewinSoldier]

Hey guys! Been an all grain brewer for about 7 years now and jumped straight into it.

I'm looking to do an experiment making starter wort using LME, dextrose, and a little yeast nutrient. Im not super familiar with extract brewing but have watched a bunch of videos. Please let me know if I'm on the right track.

I use RO water for brewing now so I'd use that for the LME. I'm not super sure how to build a recipe with it but I plugged some numbers into Brewersfriend using extract from the menu. I want 4 gallons of finished wort and am only going to boil for about 10 mins to make sure I get the LME and RO water mixed evenly and good. So in putting 4 gallons into fermenter, and 4 gallons boil volume(won't lose hardly anything in 10 mins), it's saying if I add 8 lbs of LME and 1.2lbs of dextrose, that will get me to the gravity I'm shooting for which is 1.084.

So do I just add the LME and dextrose into the pot, then fill it to the 4 gallon mark with RO water? That is what I'm getting from it.

So I also need my pH of the wort to be a 4.5 because they will be stored in ball jars. How do I calculate the pH of the wort? Usually I do that during mashing in all grain, so not sure how I'd do that here. It is IMPERATIVE that I get it to 4.5ph though to prevent botulism. Are there any calculators for this? I'm guessing I'm just going to have to boil for 10 to get everything mixed, then cool down to room temp, check pH, and adjust with lactic acid?

Thanks for any help.

 

[IslandLizard]

[EDITS]
Are you going to dilute your 1.084 starter wort 1:1 with (sterile) water upon use to reach actual starter wort gravity?
1.042 would still be a bit high for starters, 1.037 is more or less the optimum, except for stressed yeast, or growing from very small cultures.
I guess you could dilute a little higher @ 1.25:1 to get to 1.037.

Use a refractometer for your gravity reading?

You'd need a pH meter. And a decent one, chances are the $10 jobbies won't do it.

How are you going to store those starter jars, they're still not sterile.
Isn't the best way to simply sterilize the jars with wort in a pressure canner?

 

[RM-MN]

First off, do you really need a starter? Gordon Strong has said that he often brews lagers without one. Second off, why use LME? Unless it was given to you, the better way to make a starter is with DME. Third off, how confident are you that you can store that amount of wort without risking spoilage or botulin toxin?

I'll be in the camp of making a starter from DME as needed. Simple and safe.

 

[IslandLizard]

First off, do you really need a starter? Gordon Strong has said that he often brews lagers without one. Second off, why use LME? Unless it was given to you, the better way to make a starter is with DME. Third off, how confident are you that you can store that amount of wort without risking spoilage or botulin toxin?

I'll be in the camp of making a starter from DME as needed. Simple and safe.

Like the OP, I've been thinking too of making a reserve of double strength starter wort, but from all grain, basically ready to use in pint and quart size mason jars. But realistically, the time and effort it takes make it hardly worth it, or even futile.

The easiest part is to drop the pH, to prevent botulism. But without sterilization the wort will always be somewhat infected, and even if kept in a low temp (34F) fridge, it may (or will) slowly spoil. That means it probably needs to get re-boiled and re-chilled before use while it still may contain unwanted content.

So yes, I agree, making starters as needed, fresh and clean is the best way. Or buy expensive canned wort. If a boatload of yeast is needed, brew a small beer first and harvest the yeast cake for the main batch. That's probably done quicker than making 2 or 3 rounds of step up starters.

I'm in the camp, of pitching (at least estimated) proper cell counts from saved slurries or fresh starters. Since it's impossible to know its history and current condition, one should always make a starter from store bought liquid yeast. It proves viability while you ramp up cell count. If you overbuild starters you can save some out for a next starter, and so on.

Gordon Strong may do whatever he wants and sees fit.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

@IslandLizard,

Yeah basically what I'm doing is trying to recreate the fast pitch canned wort. There is a whole thread on here about it if anyone wants a read.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/is-fast-pitch-canned-wort-coming-back.637576/page-1

In short, I've taken one of my fast pitch cans and dissected it so to speak.

On the can it lists the ingredients:
-Organic Malt extract
-Organic sugar
-Water
-Yeast nutrients

So to me, I'm betting they are using their Mallard Malts Organic malt syrup, probably the organic dextrose they used to carry(made from tapioca) and then wyeast yeast nutrient or similar.

One other thing the can says is "pasteurized". I know the story I got from NB with the forever out of stock was because their new supplier didn't pasteurize the cans which caused them to explode. I don't see why they'd lie about that.

I'm guessing they just mix the malt extract syrup, water, and yeast nutrients and then boost the SG up to 1.080 or so with the dextrose. Then after the boil is done(15-20 mins), they chill it and can it. After they are canned, they run through a machine that hits them at 160° to pastuerize them.

I was wondering how they were getting away without putting them under a pressure canner and not worrying about botulism. Botulism can't grow in a pH environment that is under 4.6. So my conclusion was that they had to be getting their wort to a low pH somewhere under 4.6 before putting into the cans to prevent the botulism aspect. Then once they are in the cans, pasteurizing them to kill any wild bacteria/yeast that could start munching on all the sugary wort. Then they say their cans are good up to a year stored at room temp. I tested my theory and opened a can for the sake of science. This is what I found:
-SG:1.083
-pH:4.54

So I was right in my assumption on the pH. Then after you dump the can in your flask, and add enough RO/distilled water to get you to 1L, you are at a 1.037-1.040 SG. It makes things so easy it's not even funny and saves me a ton of time and mess.

Now that said, I do have a big American 941 pressure canner and can make like 32 pint sized concentrated starters at a time, or 19 quart sized. I've been experimenting with a few ways of doing it. I first tried it with DME and came out with the same outcome as others who tried it. It was a dark mess inside the jars. I am guessing it has something to do with all the solids left in solution from the DME, and a Maillard reaction due to the high 250° heat.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Then I went ahead and tried it last night with a small 3 gallon all grain batch. I still got a lot of the proteins in the jars that created big nasty looking patty's in the jars. I did this batch as a BIAB so maybe that had something to do with all the leftover proteins going into the jars. Still not happy with how they turned out.

So now I have two things left to try. I ordered a bunch of LME last night from northern brewer and am going to experiment with two different ways. This is why I was asking for the help because I've never done a LME batch.

First, I am planning on making a small 4 gallon batch, so adding LME, some dextrose, yeast nutrient and RO water into the kettle to the 4 gallon line. I'll boil it for 10 minutes to get everything dissolved really good before putting it into jars. I shouldn't lose much on a 10 minute boil. This batch I will pressure cook for 15 minutes and see how it comes out when it's done. Being that there is no junk left behind in just LME and water, it should stay pretty clear without all the cold break and hot break stuff left behind.

Then for the second experiment, I'll do the same and boil it for 10 mins, but on this one I'll adjust the pH after I cool it back down to get it to 4.5 pH. Then I'll use my pressure cooker as a hot water bath canner to pasteurize them. That "should" be what NB is doing, only theirs are in cans.