Need replacement SSR and advice

[jekeane]

I bought a used panel for what was supposed to be a deal but um well you know how that can work...

On initial inspection everything looked good neatly labeled and well put together for the most part. When I got home and started to find problems when setting it up I started looking more in depth and found this mess hiding up in the top corner....

As I was taking it apart it seems that the SSR was just caulked to the heatsync with no thermal transfer paste or screws used. The SSR that is toast also leads eventually to the boil element receptacle that is toast.

the Boil kettle is controlled by an auberin syl 2353 and the hlt is a mypin ta4-snk+k

There was a 50A cable and plug on the box but they were 40A SSRs was that the possible problem? I am obviously replacing the SSR and Receptacle and have replaced the 50A oven cable with a 30A dryer cable. Is there anything else I should be considering as a cause for this?

Any recommendations for a ssr heatsync combo to purchase?

this is a red cable not black, had to pry it out of the plastic in the receptacle.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Holy carp...that's messed up. I'm surprised that thing didn't burst into flames. I'm not an electrician, but that looks to me like the element was drawing too much amperage. If that's the case, going with a lower amperage cable isn't going to solve the issue; you need components that are rated for use with the elememt, or you need to replace the element with a lower wattage one. I can't believe someone would sell that without disclosing it. Even if he/she didn't know that thing was fried like that, they had to have noticed the burning smell.

 

[Brewski_59]

check out the electric brewery, they have a great write up on their builds. I like their use of an oversized heat sink with both SSRs attached. Of course proper installation techniques go a long way for heat transfer. Such as screwing it to the heat sink instead of gluing it with RTV. I'd replace that wire with a larger gauge wire while your at it.
The damage may have been done because of the SSR failure. Or as Microbusbrewery suggested your drawing too much current for the set up. I wouldn't recommend going down 20 amps for your feed cable unless your certain that your not going to need that large a cable. You can always go larger but never smaller IMO. Do you know how much total current your rig draws?

 

[cbier60]

I'll assume your element is no more than 5500W/220V; therefore, full load is only 25A. So you should be fine with an overrated 50A cable and 40A SSR. The problem is almost certainly improper heatsinking, especially if it was really just caulked. Sorry, but I can't recommend a reliable ssr heatsync combo, but I'm sure you'll get some good recommendations.

The failure of the SSR (and many electrical failures) was probably not due to overcurrent per se, but to thermal stress from overheating (which has a lot to do with the current rating). Once you put this back together, if you have an IR thermometer for measuring wort or yeast starter temps, check the temp of the SSR (or where it's mounted if you can't see it) when you start up your 1st brew. If it's below ~70°C/160°F, then you're good.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Usage of a proper heatsink will help you quite a bit. Good thermal paste and screwing the SSR to the heatsink will help. The mager brand of SSRs is what Auber resells. They seem to work well. I use surplus Teledyne dual-SSRs and I haven't had any problems. I do have to have a fan on my heatsink for the summer temperatures. I try to keep the sink <120ºF.

Another thing to keep track of is setting up a PM interval for retightening the terminals on your panel. I do it annually and I brew 2x/month, give or take. As things heat and cool they can loosen up. 10 Gauge wire is fine for 5500watt circuits. You should have supplemental protection if the panel is stepping down to 10 gauge. A circuit breaker or fuse works for this.

 

[BorderBrewer]

I can recommend Crydom relays. Check out the Crydom D2450 relay with the HS251 panel mount heat sink.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I got this off ebay.Looks like the same pic so it might be the same seller.Its been going strong for a year and a half with no issues.Heavy duty,no chance of flexing the ribs.It gets real hot to the touch.If I did it again I would get even a bigger one to be on the safe side(lots to choose from on EBAY),but again no issues and no fan blowing on it. 30A 5500w setup
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Recla...163407?hash=item2805de8e8f:g:Qm4AAMXQatBSbsV~

 

[doug293cz]

How many elements can the panel control, and what are the wattages for each element? The max simultaneous current draw is what determines the rating of the breaker that you need to have protecting the panel, and breaker rating determines the gauge of the wire that must be used to feed the panel. Don't change the feed wire gauge until you know how the preceding affects your setup.

Based on your photos, and the components that failed, I see two possibilities:

1. One of your elements draws much more current than it is supposed to. This led to overheating of the receptacle and the SSR.
2. Some of your connections became loose, which raises the resistance of the connections, causing them to over heat.

Based on the thermal damage patterns, I believe the second possibility is more likely.

I would recommend not using a Fotek SSR for replacement. There appear to be lots of counterfeit Foteks in the market, many of them using under rated components internally. A lot of folk have good luck with Mager SSR's (that's what Auber rebrands and sells.)

Brew on

 

[jekeane]

The panel is 30A HERMS setup and controls only 1 element at a time. The elements look to be 5500W Ripples but im not certain. Im pretty confident that the SSR and Heat Sink were not properly attached as i just scored the edge of the glue around the heat sink and the SSR came off. There was no residue of any sort on either piece that would lead me to believe a thermal compound was used.

How many elements can the panel control, and what are the wattages for each element? The max simultaneous current draw is what determines the rating of the breaker that you need to have protecting the panel, and breaker rating determines the gauge of the wire that must be used to feed the panel. Don't change the feed wire gauge until you know how the preceding affects your setup.

Based on your photos, and the components that failed, I see two possibilities:

1. One of your elements draws much more current than it is supposed to. This led to overheating of the receptacle and the SSR.
2. Some of your connections became loose, which raises the resistance of the connections, causing them to over heat.

Based on the thermal damage patterns, I believe the second possibility is more likely.

I would recommend not using a Fotek SSR for replacement. There appear to be lots of counterfeit Foteks in the market, many of them using under rated components internally. A lot of folk have good luck with Mager SSR's (that's what Auber rebrands and sells.)

Brew on

 

[jekeane]

I was looking at replacing my 2 little heat sinks with this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_48&products_id=478

and the replacing the SSR's with these: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=30

and then replacing the damaged receptacle and wire to that receptacle.

Thoughts?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

That is an effective and easy way to go. You can save $$$ by buying elsewhere but it will cost you time...

 

[idiotsinc]

I ruined 2 SSR's. One because I didn't realize it didn't come mounted with thermal paste and one I believe was because I mixed up the input and the output for the heating element. Or maybe it was counterfeit. Went with auberins SSR, wired it correctly and have had no problems.

 

[microbusbrewery]

FWIW, when I was building mine I found that Heatsink USA had the best prices. They're bigger generic heatsinks so it's probably easier to plan your build around them than try to retrofit them into an existing build. They're not anodized (at least they weren't when I built my panel). Granted, I only use mine for two elements (110v) and two pumps, but it's never felt more than slightly warm, even when the PID settings on my BCS are repeatedly switching it on and off.

http://www.heatsinkusa.com/

 

[doug293cz]

The SSR was certainly mounted incorrectly to the heatsink, but the more I look at the photo of the failed SSR, the less I believe the improper mounting had anything to do with the failure.

Look at where the plastic is discolored near the terminal screws. This is where the device got hottest. If it got hotter elsewhere, the discoloration would be elsewhere. In a properly connected SSR, the most heat is generated in the junction of the triac (solid state switch) which is mounted directly to, and near the center of the metal plate of the SSR. If the destructive heat came from the triac, the plastic would be discolored where it meets the metal plate. So, the heat was generated right at the terminals, and by far the most common cause of terminal overheating is loose connections.

Brew on

 

[Dfitz]

I was looking at replacing my 2 little heat sinks with this http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_48&products_id=478

and the replacing the SSR's with these: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=30

and then replacing the damaged receptacle and wire to that receptacle.

Thoughts?

Both are sound choices. I've built many controllers and this is generally what I've ordered when building the type of controller you've described.

Take a look at the heat sink that is currently on the control panel. Does it have adequately located holes to install the SSR? If so are the threads fouled? I can't figure why a person would try to install an SSR this way. Finally, do check the heat sinks dimensions that you are considering. An external heat sink will dissapate heat muck better than the cheapy little heat sinks I think your describing. It'll be over rated but safe. If you use a heavy heat sink and have properly rated components (2Xs what's required) you'll have piece of mind.

 

[jekeane]

Both are sound choices. I've built many controllers and this is generally what I've ordered when building the type of controller you've described.

Take a look at the heat sink that is currently on the control panel. Does it have adequately located holes to install the SSR? If so are the threads fouled? I can't figure why a person would try to install an SSR this way. Finally, do check the heat sinks dimensions that you are considering. An external heat sink will dissapate heat muck better than the cheapy little heat sinks I think your describing. It'll be over rated but safe. If you use a heavy heat sink and have properly rated components (2Xs what's required) you'll have piece of mind.

The screws to the heat sinks were too short is why they weren't attached. 1 of the two looked as if the screws maybe made it a quarter turn in...

The heat sinks I had are the pyramid looking ones that seem to come free with a lot of generic type ssr's

 

[jekeane]

FWIW, when I was building mine I found that Heatsink USA had the best prices. They're bigger generic heatsinks so it's probably easier to plan your build around them than try to retrofit them into an existing build. They're not anodized (at least they weren't when I built my panel). Granted, I only use mine for two elements (110v) and two pumps, but it's never felt more than slightly warm, even when the PID settings on my BCS are repeatedly switching it on and off.

http://www.heatsinkusa.com/

The downside to these is you have to tap them yourself right? What kid of project is that? Will a simple set of taps from harbor freight work? Also can the heat sink overlap the hole in the panel? Like if I add new mounting holes to the actual panel can it rest on top of the panel rather than directly in the precut slot?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I didn't tap mine.I just used a small nut/bolt washer.Drilling is just a regular drill bit,its only aluminum.I have mine mounted on the outside of the box well beyond the SSR hole.I have a plastic box and its nowhere near hot enough to raise alarm

 

[microbusbrewery]

The downside to these is you have to tap them yourself right? What kid of project is that? Will a simple set of taps from harbor freight work? Also can the heat sink overlap the hole in the panel? Like if I add new mounting holes to the actual panel can it rest on top of the panel rather than directly in the precut slot?

Yes, that's correct. I used a Harbor Freight set (I think I might have paid $8 for the set). The good thing is aluminum is so soft it's very easy to work with.

I'm not sure what you mean by overlapping. Do you mean sandwich the panel between the SSR and the heatsink? If so, no, I wouldn't do it that way. I did mine very similar to the electric brewery. Say my heatsink measures 6x10; I cut a 5x9 square hole in my panel, centered the heatsink over the hole and secured it to the panel using screws (tapped threads in each corner off the heatsink). Then I mounted the SSRs directly to the heatsink using pre-drilled and tapped holes. That along with the thermal paste helps ensure the best heat transfer from SSR to heatsink.

Here's a pic of the back of my panel where you can see the various mounting holes.

 

[jekeane]

Yes, that's correct. I used a Harbor Freight set (I think I might have paid $8 for the set). The good thing is aluminum is so soft it's very easy to work with.

I'm not sure what you mean by overlapping. Do you mean sandwich the panel between the SSR and the heatsink? If so, no, I wouldn't do it that way. I did mine very similar to the electric brewery. Say my heatsink measures 6x10; I cut a 5x9 square hole in my panel, centered the heatsink over the hole and secured it to the panel using screws (tapped threads in each corner off the heatsink). Then I mounted the SSRs directly to the heatsink using pre-drilled and tapped holes. That along with the thermal paste helps ensure the best heat transfer from SSR to heatsink.

Here's a pic of the back of my panel where you can see the various mounting holes.

View attachment 353829

This is what I was wondering.

 

[jekeane]

10 Gauge wire is fine for 5500watt circuits. You should have supplemental protection if the panel is stepping down to 10 gauge. A circuit breaker or fuse works for this.

Everything looks to be 10 gauge other than the plug itself. Where would I wire a fuse or breaker in? Is it a relatively simple task?

 

[PeteNMA]

How are you powering the panel itself? If you are feeding it from a 30a breaker in your main panel then you don't need to duplicate that protection in the panel.

 

[ITV]

The SSR seems to be the preferred method for electric brew setups. Have you considered using contactors instead? http://www.amazon.com/Packard-C140A-Pole-Contactor-Volt/dp/B003U81D2I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1462922836&sr=8-3&keywords=contactor

I'm still in the process of reverse engineering the electric brew setup I acquired so I'm not certain on how often the electric heating elements cycle with the PID controller to determine if a contactor would beat itself to death or be a suitable substitute for the SSR.

 

[doug293cz]

The SSR seems to be the preferred method for electric brew setups. Have you considered using contactors instead? http://www.amazon.com/Packard-C140A-Pole-Contactor-Volt/dp/B003U81D2I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1462922836&sr=8-3&keywords=contactor

I'm still in the process of reverse engineering the electric brew setup I acquired so I'm not certain on how often the electric heating elements cycle with the PID controller to determine if a contactor would beat itself to death or be a suitable substitute for the SSR.

Contactors are not meant for high switching rates, like SSR's are. A contactor will wear out relatively quickly when driven by a PID, especially if used in fixed duty cycle mode for boil control. Also, loose connections on a contactor will also overheat, and perhaps melt the housing around the terminals. This was the OP's failure mode. For switching an element with a PID (or similar controller) use an SSR.

Brew on

 

[ITV]

Contactors are not meant for high switching rates, like SSR's are. A contactor will wear out relatively quickly when driven by a PID, especially if used in fixed duty cycle mode for boil control. Also, loose connections on a contactor will also overheat, and perhaps melt the housing around the terminals. This was the OP's failure mode. For switching an element with a PID (or similar controller) use an SSR.

Brew on

Thanks for the input. When controlling a 220V heating element is it common to use a 2 pole SSR or two 1 pole SSR's? My control panel has a 1 pole SSR but I suspect that the heating elements were driven from a 120VAC source.

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the input. When controlling a 220V heating element is it common to use a 2 pole SSR or two 1 pole SSR's? My control panel has a 1 pole SSR but I suspect that the heating elements were driven from a 120VAC source.

You only need to switch one of the hot lines to control the element, so only one pole required. You do need the panel power switch/contactor to switch both hot lines (so nothing is hot inside the panel when the power is off), so that switch/contactor needs to be double pole. Look at how it is done in the very simple design below.



Brew on

 

[ITV]

You only need to switch one of the hot lines to control the element, so only one pole required. You do need the panel power switch/contactor to switch both hot lines (so nothing is hot inside the panel when the power is off), so that switch/contactor needs to be double pole. Look at how it is done in the very simple design below.

View attachment 353900

Brew on

That circuit is very simple, just have to be aware that there is a hot line to the heater at all times with the 2 pole switch in the ON position despite what the indicator light shows.

 

[doug293cz]

That circuit is very simple, just have to be aware that there is a hot line to the heater at all times with the 2 pole switch in the ON position despite what the indicator light shows.

Correct. This is intended to be a minimalist design. It would be simple enough to add a second indicator light between the two hots after the switch and before the SSR. Then you have both "Element Power On" and "Element Firing" indicators. Most of my schematics have both. Also, I prefer contactors to direct action switches (i.e. the two pole, 30A switch of this design.)

Brew on