Need help with my electrical diagram!!!

[CodeRage]

Tiber, a GFCI is a bit of a complex circuit, when compared to an E-stop at least. E-Stops are not nearly as susceptible to damage due to voltage surges either. Though a GFCI should fail open it is not always guaranteed to. These are the reasons why I would use an E-Stop over a GFCI.

Personally, I advise against using a dead short to ground to trip the GFCI. If you decide to keep it set up that way, at least current limit the trip. Something like a 2.2k 1/4 Watt resistor. This way you are limiting the circuit to 5 mA and should the GFCI fail, the resistor will burn up and break the circuit.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber, a GFCI is a bit of a complex circuit, when compared to an E-stop at least. E-Stops are not nearly as susceptible to damage due to voltage surges either. Though a GFCI should fail open it is not always guaranteed to. These are the reasons why I would use an E-Stop over a GFCI.

Personally, I advise against using a dead short to ground to trip the GFCI. If you decide to keep it set up that way, at least current limit the trip. Something like a 2.2k 1/4 Watt resistor. This way you are limiting the circuit to 5 mA and should the GFCI fail, the resistor will burn up and break the circuit.

I understand your concern, CR, and thank you for commenting.

My kill switch does have two 1k ohm resistors, and a 1A fuse between 120V & ground.

I've tested it a few times, and zero problems. This may not be the most conventional method, but it's cheap, easy, and works.

TB

 

[P-J]

My kill switch does have two 1k ohm resistors, and a 1A fuse between 120V & ground.

I've tested it a few times, and zero problems. This may not be the most conventional method, but it's cheap, easy, and works.

The circuit as it is laid out has the exact same effect on the GFCI as if one pushed the GFCI test button. A very small current (0.06A) is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip. Simple and effective with no harm to the wiring, GFCI or any other component within the system. As an added bonus, it kills all power to the brew rig, including the power outlet. It is an Emergency Power Off after all.

I fail to understand the alarm - but - I guess that's just this old man's thinking.

 

[EFaden]

The circuit as it is laid out has the exact same effect on the GFCI as if one pushed the GFCI test button. A very small current is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip. Simple and effective with no harm to the wiring, GFCI or any other component within the system. As an added bonus, it kills all power to the brew rig, including the power outlet. It is an Emergency Power Off after all.

I fail to understand the alarm - but - I guess that's just this old man's thinking.

This isn't actually true. The test button on a GFCI doesn't short to ground. What it does is actually allow a little bit of current to flow around the sensor part of the circuit back to neutral to trip the circuit. Basically a GFCI is sensing flux... It is actually why you can't use a clamp meter on an extension cord (the flux cancels out).

 

[P-J]

This isn't actually true. The test button on a GFCI doesn't short to ground. What it does is actually allow a little bit of current to flow around the sensor part of the circuit back to neutral to trip the circuit. Basically a GFCI is sensing flux... It is actually why you can't use a clamp meter on an extension cord (the flux cancels out).

What you say about the operation of the GFCI test is correct.. However what I have stated is not wrong:

The circuit as it is laid out has the exact same effect on the GFCI as if one pushed the GFCI test button. A very small current is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip.

Indeed what I stated: "A very small current is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip." was my description of the circuit as I set it up.

 

[EFaden]

What you say about the operation of the GFCI test is correct.. However what I have stated is not wrong:

Indeed what I stated: "A very small current is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip." was my description of the circuit as I set it up.

Sorry. Misread.

 

[P-J]

No problem what so ever. I really appreciate your comments as it helps make the whole issue and understanding of it a lot clearer to the brewers that choose to read this thread. Good interchange of ideas on this forum is critical IMHO.

Thanks.!!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

The circuit as it is laid out has the exact same effect on the GFCI as if one pushed the GFCI test button. A very small current (0.06A) is allowed to go to ground that causes the GFCI to trip. Simple and effective with no harm to the wiring, GFCI or any other component within the system. As an added bonus, it kills all power to the brew rig, including the power outlet. It is an Emergency Power Off after all.

I fail to understand the alarm - but - I guess that's just this old man's thinking.

P-J,
No alarm intended...
I posted in this thread because there appeared to be momentum leading Gabrew to use an E-Stop similar to TB's. I posted to point out that the E-Stop in my diagram that was referenced includes the feature Gabrew mentioned (a switch to turn it off between brews).

I am not competent to challenge the issues that may arise with either setup, but having no experience with shorting to ground as an E-Stop, means that personally, I'm not as comfortable with the method.

I really did not mean to start a "panic", just wanted to offer Gabrew an alternative and a feature he was looking for in post #5.

As I said earlier, I applaud anybody building safety features into these setups so please don't take my post as discouragement.

Ed

 

[EFaden]

No problem what so ever. I really appreciate your comments as it helps make the whole issue and understanding of it a lot clearer to the brewers that choose to read this thread. Good interchange of ideas on this forum is critical IMHO.

Thanks.!!

P-J,
No alarm intended...
I posted in this thread because there appeared to be momentum leading Gabrew to use an E-Stop similar to TB's. I posted to point out that the E-Stop in my diagram that was referenced includes the feature Gabrew mentioned (a switch to turn it off between brews).

I am not competent to challenge the issues that may arise with either setup, but having no experience with shorting to ground as an E-Stop, means that personally, I'm not as comfortable with the method.

I really did not mean to start a "panic", just wanted to offer Gabrew an alternative and a feature he was looking for in post #5.

As I said earlier, I applaud anybody building safety features into these setups so please don't take my post as discouragement.

Ed

I agree... I really like discussing the issues and think that it is vital to my own learning. And like Ed I think that any attempt to put safety features in is a good idea.

 

[P-J]

Ed,

I fully understand that and I do not have any issued, what so ever, with your setup. Your design is very sound and a great example of how thing can be accomplished. I fully agree that the "requirement" to turn the system off between brews should not be done with my design for an E-Stop. Your method for a normal shut down is excellent. I guess my whole point of my issue - is about stopping the system in an extreme emergency, not a normal shut down.

I (and you - as well as many others) am more than willing to assist Gabrew in his adventure. I call this whole thing "mind jumping".

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

[CodeRage]

I fail to understand the alarm - but - I guess that's just this old man's thinking.

Before, when the current sense circuit in the gfci failed, the gfci would remain closed. There has been a design requirement change to force the gfci to open should the current sense circuit fail. Being in controls, I've seen solid state stuff fail in strange ways, ways they shouldn't fail. So thats why this young pup uses electro-mechanical disconnects. Do I not trust gfcis? No, but I look at them like a worse case insurance policy I would rather not exercise.

The idea of intentionally shorting something to ground by design doesn't sit well with me either. Thats just me though.

Industry wise, it's done this way for a reason. It was asked why and thats my answer. As a professional it would reflect poorly on my integrity should I recommend or condone any practice I wouldn't use in the field. I will politely agree to disagree and leave it at that.
cheers

 

[P-J]

Never mind.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Gabrew...

Sorry for the detour in your thread that seems to have started with my post. Hopefully, you have enough information, or can dig as deep as necessary to decide what you're comfortable with regarding an E-Stop for your system.

I have seen many threads on HBT go off into the weeds and never get back on track.

Hopefully we can get your thread back on track...

Ed

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Hopefully, our discussion helps him determine which EPO system to use. Without getting into it an further, I think there's enough info for him to make an informed decision.

Gabrew, you'll end up with a fine system either way. Looking forward to seeing your build develop.

TB

 

[Gabrew]

Well, I hope everyone feels better as a result of this debate ...thanks to everyone for their input (as always!!!!)

Im still hesitating on which method to use...however does anyone have any comments or suggestions for the rest of the circuit diagram???

Thanks!

 

[EFaden]

Well, I hope everyone feels better as a result of this debate ...thanks to everyone for their input (as always!!!!)

Im still hesitating on which method to use...however does anyone have any comments or suggestions for the rest of the circuit diagram???

Thanks!

The rest looks good... now I am just waiting to see some pics of it fully built

 

[Gabrew]

so am I...need some more parts before I begin the electrical part...although my kegs are pretty much complete...

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Your drawing images are a bit small to read the text, but it looks pretty good to me. Most of my components came from AutomationDirect.com and Mouser.com.

Ed

 

[Gabrew]

hmmmm, good to know

so far I found pretty much everything I need from Automationdirect, however ill be taking a close look at mouser!

 

[EFaden]

hmmmm, good to know

so far I found pretty much everything I need from Automationdirect, however ill be taking a close look at mouser!

Other places to look are Newark and Digikey.

 

[Gabrew]

any good places for the wires themselves?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

any good places for the wires themselves?

My cord(s) came from a local electric supply.
I bought MTW wire for wiring inside the panel from McMaster.

I bought Altech brand din mount terminal blocks and accessories from Mouser.com

Ed

 

[Tiber_Brew]

any good places for the wires themselves?

I got my 6/4 power supply cord rated at over 50A from www.stayonline.com. It has a NEMA 14-50P plug on the end already, with ROJ a couple inches on the other end. It was cheap for what you get.

As far as the wiring inside the panel, I used THHN stranded wire, not solid, from any local hardware store. Make sure you use the correct AWG wire for each circuit.

Oh, and even if you're not getting anything inspected, color code your wires. Keep the two hots black and red, the neutral white, and the ground green throughout your entire enclosure. Trust me, it makes wiring and troubleshooting much easier.

Good luck my friend
TB

 

[P-J]

... Oh, and even if you're not getting anything inspected, color code your wires. Keep the two hots black and red, the neutral white, and the ground green throughout your entire enclosure. Trust me, it makes wiring and troubleshooting much easier.

Plus 100% on this one.

Wishing you the best.!

 

[Gabrew]

Well, time for some pictures!

So here is my:
16x14x8 polyester control box
3 PIDs (Auberins)
3 2inch RTDs
3 RTD connectors

2 Contactors
4 100amp minibus
2 20amp inlets

2 10/3 30amp, 250v dryer cord (for the elements)
1 10/4 50amp, 250v cord (for control box)

what i plan on using to install the elements onto the keggles...thoughts???

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Looks like a good start.

How are you planning to ground your kettles? Your electrical boxes look plastic (last pic). There appears to be a grounding screw, but I'm concerned about a bonding path from that to your elements.

Also, that 10 AWG wire won't handle 50 amps. You'll want at least 8 AWG THHN for 50 A.

Looking forward to seeing more of your progress.

TB

 

[Gabrew]

The junction box is in fact plastic...but if they include a ground screw...shouldn't that be enough to do the trick?

As for the 4 wire range cord...I beleive its much larger guage than 10...however the ebay add does not specify, perhaps you can tell me:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PETRA-90-2088-4-...387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563ee46ac3

 

[EFaden]

Yes. Just put a block in there and run the ground into it. Then pass along the ground to anything else that needs it. I wouldn't suggest trying to ground the box

-Eric

The junction box is in fact plastic...but if they include a ground screw...shouldn't that be enough to do the trick?

As for the 4 wire range cord...I beleive its much larger guage than 10...however the ebay add does not specify, perhaps you can tell me:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/PETRA-90-2088-4-WIRE-RANGE-CORD-50A-10-FT-/370422344387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563ee46ac3

 

[Gabrew]

hmm...not sure i understand

the junction box is to enclose the element onto the keggle...so there is really only one 'thing' to ground. And would you mind giving more info on this 'block' you've mentioned?

thanks

 

[EFaden]

hmm...not sure i understand

the junction box is to enclose the element onto the keggle...so there is really only one 'thing' to ground. And would you mind giving more info on this 'block' you've mentioned?

thanks

Sorry, people usually use a copper ring (or some sort of block) around the element to ground to. Basically you need something to "ground" the water. If something should short you wouldn't want the water to be live with 240 volts.

 

[Gabrew]

oh, I see.

Thanks \!!!

 

[EFaden]

No problem. Checkout this page... they basically do it with a sheet of copper.

http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/The-Electric-HLT-(or-how-I-built-a-water-heater-in-a-cooler

-Eric

oh, I see.

Thanks \!!!

 

[Gabrew]

No problem. Checkout this page... they basically do it with a sheet of copper.

http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/The-Electric-HLT-(or-how-I-built-a-water-heater-in-a-cooler

-Eric

WOW, great stuff! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Basically, what we're saying is that you won't be able to ground your kettle like this:

You will have to provide an adequate bonding path from your ground screw to your kettle/element, since your box will not conduct the ground to the kettle (being plastic and all).

Don't worry, you can make that work; it will just require an extra small step.

Cheers buddy,
TB

 

[EFaden]

Actually, that looks like it "could" be a metal box.... (if you look at the screw holes they are silver inside).... But yes... I was basically saying that doing that with plastic would be a BAD idea. Safety first

-Eric

Basically, what we're saying is that you won't be able to ground your kettle like this:


You will have to provide an adequate bonding path from your ground screw to your kettle/element, since your box will not conduct the ground to the kettle (being plastic and all).

Don't worry, you can make that work; it will just require an extra small step.

Cheers buddy,
TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Actually, that looks like it "could" be a metal box.... (if you look at the screw holes they are silver inside).... But yes... I was basically saying that doing that with plastic would be a BAD idea. Safety first

-Eric

That was my box, and it's metal. But yes, you're absolutely right.

TB

 

[Gabrew]

So I finish working and get home around midnight to find two boxes with my name on them placed in front of my door. On closer look, its my 275$ order from automationdirect that fedex decided was a smart idea to leave in front of the common door (i live in an apartement) in the city. Is it just me or are they f-in mad? I usually never call to give out my thoughts and complaints...but theyre gonna get an idea of how I feel about their professionalism...

Anyways (that feels better), here are some pics of what came in today!

Still waiting on my SRRs (has been over a month!), but I should be able to get this thing started this weekend!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

So I finish working and get home around midnight to find two boxes with my name on them placed in front of my door. On closer look, its my 275$ order from automationdirect that fedex decided was a smart idea to leave in front of the common door (i live in an apartement) in the city. Is it just me or are they f-in mad? I usually never call to give out my thoughts and complaints...but theyre gonna get an idea of how I feel about their professionalism...

Anyways (that feels better), here are some pics of what came in today!

Still waiting on my SRRs (has been over a month!), but I should be able to get this thing started this weekend!

Looking good!

Did you get a panel for the inside of your box to mount components on?

Ed

 

[Gabrew]

nope, but I will this weekend

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I was able to make a panel for my box, and a shield for my pumps out of the same sheet of galvanized steel, all for less than a new panel alone costs. Might consider something like that if you got the tools.

TB

BTW, looking good!