Need help with La Chouffe-inspired recipe

[eman_resu]

I'm trying to formulate a recipe for something similar to La Chouffe, but not exactly a clone, and would appreciate some advice. I know there are several clone recipes out there, but they are very different from each other and none of them seemed very convincing. Plus I have certain limitations with my process and equipment. Here's what I have so far:

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Batch Size: 9,5 L /~ 2,5 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Efficiency: 70%
OG: 1,078
FG: 1,020
Bitterness: 25,9 IBUs
Color: 5 SRM

2,5 kg /~ 5 lbs Pilsner Malt
500 g /~ 1 lbs DME - Extra Light
250 g /~ 0,5 lbs Table Sugar

22 g /~ 0,75 oz Styrian Goldings (3,0% alpha) 60 min 14,1 IBU
8 g /~ 0,25 oz Saaz (3,9% alpha) 60 min 6,7 IBU
8 g /~ 0,25 oz Saaz (3,9% alpha) 30 min 5,1 IBU
6 g /~ 0,2 oz Coriander 5 min

Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes

Mash 65 C / 149 F 75 min
Sparge 74 C / 165 F
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I can't mash more than 2,5 kg, so I have to use some extract, and can't seem to get Pilsner extract here in Finland without ridiculous delivery costs. And of course there's no room left for hot water for a step mash. Would raising the temp with a decoction work with this beer? I thought I'd throw the dme in as a late addition, or should it be the sugar? (maybe I'll make some kind of candi syrup out of it)

The hops are what I happen to have on hand. The amount of Styrian is what I'm guessing I have left but I have plenty of Saaz. How do amounts and boil times look?

Brewtarget gives me a pretty high FG, is this what I should expect? Haven't used this yeast before. I have a pretty constant 23 C /~ 73 F ambient temp, is this ok or do I need to keep it cooler in the beginning? I usually ferment in primary only for up to 30 days or so.

Getting a good beer similar to La Couffe is good enough for me. Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated

-Tommy

 

[sptaylor70]

Brewer's Friend gives about the same numbers. This looks like a tripel or Belgian Golden to me, which seems to be what you're after.

I would use brown sugar or a dark candi sugar to get more flavor than table sugar will give you. You can certainly add either or both the sugar and DME late, avoiding over-caramelization. Decoction mashing will work great, but with a well-modified malt, there's no reason that a long single infusion mash wouldn't serve about as well.

If you're worried about the high FG, you could use a more attenuating yeast, like Wyeast 3711 French Saison. It would be fruitier, but still Belgian.

 

[eman_resu]

Brewer's Friend gives about the same numbers. This looks like a tripel or Belgian Golden to me, which seems to be what you're after.

I would use brown sugar or a dark candi sugar to get more flavor than table sugar will give you. You can certainly add either or both the sugar and DME late, avoiding over-caramelization. Decoction mashing will work great, but with a well-modified malt, there's no reason that a long single infusion mash wouldn't serve about as well.

If you're worried about the high FG, you could use a more attenuating yeast, like Wyeast 3711 French Saison. It would be fruitier, but still Belgian.

Thanks for your input. I think La Chouffe is a Belgian Golden Strong? As it seems to be around 7 srm I could well use some darker sugar or syrup in my recipe. With plain table sugar I would think I want some of that caramelization, but is 60 mins too much? Most of the clone recipes i've looked at call for a step mash, but I don't feel like I need to get that scientific about it

I kinda want to use the Ardennes yeast as it's said to be the strain they use in La Chouffe. And it looks like it would work well with my ambient temp (23C/73F), but do I need to control it in the beginning?

How about the hops? I just thought I'd make some kind of compromise between the clone recipes I've seen, using what I already have.

Of course I could just brew it and then change anything that doesn't work, but brewing time is difficult to arrange with small kids in the house so I don't want to waste it on too much trial and error. It's fun to experiment, but I want good results too

 

[eman_resu]

...would it be worth the trouble to add the sugar, dissolved and boiled, after initial fermentation? Maybe get a lower FG?

 

[sptaylor70]

The timing of the sugar addition shouldn't affect the FG. I like the hops. With your yeast, starting cool and finishing warm won't affect your FG as much as it will affect the flavor - warm/warm will be fruitier than cool/warm. If you make a 1.5-2 L starter to boost your cell count, you'll maximize the attenuation.

 

[eman_resu]

Thanks again, I feel a little reassured. This is my next brew then, whenever I can arrange the time for it.

I did check out the 3711 though, and it looks pretty good too. May have to brew this again just try that one as well. Or maybe skip the 3522.........hmm..

Also started thinking, would wheat DME work any better with this or should I stick with the extra light? I have to email someone and tell them to start selling pilsner extract here. OR get something bigger to mash in so I can forget about extract for big beers

 

[sptaylor70]

I don't think that, under all of the Belgian fruitiness, that you're going to be able to tell the difference between pilsner and extra light extract. In a Helles, or a Koelsch, maybe. Wheat DME is an interesting idea, and I think would be worth trying.

I was thinking about hops, specifically French hops. French strisselspalt might be good in a future brew.

 

[eman_resu]

Ordered missing ingredients, brewing in about a week. Couldn't get the 3522, so I got the 3711 With this yeast, could I pitch a little lower than my ambient temp and just let it rise from there, and get good results? I'd like to be able to skip temp control, out of pure laziness.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

Buy acid blend, and dissolve the sugar and boil the sugar solution with a bit of acid blend. After the water boils off, the liquid sugar will gradually increase in temperature and eventually start to darken. It takes a while, but after about 30-45 minutes you have basically liquid candi that is very similar to Belgian candi sugar and you can pour it into the boiling wort.

You must add the acid blend though or the sugar crystalizes.

 

[eman_resu]

Buy acid blend, and dissolve the sugar and boil the sugar solution with a bit of acid blend. After the water boils off, the liquid sugar will gradually increase in temperature and eventually start to darken. It takes a while, but after about 30-45 minutes you have basically liquid candi that is very similar to Belgian candi sugar and you can pour it into the boiling wort.

You must add the acid blend though or the sugar crystalizes.

I've thought I might do something like that for this recipe. I've tried it once, with citric acid. It seemed to work ok, it did darken eventually. I'm not sure how it affected the outcome though, couldn't really taste anything different in the beer I used it in. But maybe in this one it would make more of a difference...

What kind of sugar should I use? I have white table sugar, some less white cane sugar, and a kind of sticky syrupy brown sugar that a google search translates to demeara (or something like that). And then there's some dark syrup that I usually use for baking. It says 140 g = 110 g sugar. Too much to choose from, suggestions?

 

[sptaylor70]

Starting cool and letting the temperature rise naturally is what most people (including me) do. Seems to yield good results. 3711 is a beast, and you should get 80+% attenuation and lots of flavor.

I would use brown or demerara, or whatever darker sugar is easy for you to find. White sugar gives you nothing but alcohol, which can lead to a cidery thinness if you use too much. I've seen threads on how to make dark candi sugars, and you can certainly go that route. I use piloncillo (Mexican brown sugar) in big beers, and that gives a pleasant flavor.

 

[eman_resu]

If it is of any interest, I brewed this today. Everything did not go smoothly, and I also made some changes.

I recently bought a cooler to use as a mash tun, and tried it out with my usual BIAB method before starting to build any kind of manifold. It did NOT hold the temp very well. I had to add about a litre of boiling water AND do two small decoctions during the mash just to keep it at target temp. Mashed for 90 mins to compensate for temps being all over the place. Next time I'll go back to using my trusty 10L/11qt pot which has worked fine, it's just a little small for big beers. I put it inside a cooler bag I have, and throw some blankets on top and it drops maybe one degree C during the last 15 mins.

I found that I had 30 g of styrian so I used it all, and also decided to throw in a little aroma hops. Hop schedule was:

30 g Styrian Goldings 60 min (17,5 IBU)
10 g Saaz 30 min (5,8 IBU)
5 g Saaz 5 min (0,8 IBU)

For sugar I used fifty-fifty brown cane sugar and demearara. Couldn't decide on just one

OG ended up a little low at 1.069, maybe because I used too much sparge water or because of my stove. It has been acting funny the last few brews, the boil slows down to a simmer every once in a while resulting in too little evaporation. I did boil 10 mins or so extra before the first hop addition. Also lost 2,5L to trub so maybe my efficiency wasn't that bad. I usually just adjust my numbers in brewtarget to get an approximate efficiency number so I'm not sure. Next up: learning how to do the math

Pitched a little lower than I had planned, at 17C/62F, but it'll probably be ok.

Now just to wait for the results...

 

[eman_resu]

And the results:

This beer has nothing to do with La Chouffe, but it wasn't a clone attempt anyway. It's a little hot and alcoholic at around 9,5% ABV, the yeast chewed it down to 1.000! I thought there was something wrong with my hydrometer at first. But overall it's pretty good. Spicy, not a lot of fruitiness, dry but not as dry as the FG would suggest. I haven't used coriander before, so it's hard to tell how much it affected. Light and crisp, but the alcohol taste is a little overpowering. Hop-wise I think it's pretty balanced, but hops and bitterness are also a little hard to find through the alcohol. Maltiness? Maybe there's a little something in the background... I guess it mostly reminds me of a Saison, with some of that funkiness I've heard about, but I'm not very familiar with the style. As you can see I'm not good at tasting notes

This beer has been in the bottles for around 3 months now. It was in primary for 6 weeks. I've only had a few of these, the first at 2 months in the bottles. Gonna take it slow and try to let them age, and see if it will mellow out a little. If I would brew it again I'd add someting like munich for maltiness, maybe some carapils too, and mash a little higher. And maybe start with a lower OG just in case. You were right sptaylor, 3711 is a beast!

Tried to take a beer porn picture but the camera on my phone just isn't good enough. Maybe I'll try again next time I open one...