Need advice on pulse width boil control

[bigdongsr94]

So I burnt another batch last night. I have burnt them before and I thought it was due to HWD heating elements. I use the MYPIN ebay controller I think TA4. It does not have a manual control. I just flip a switch for boil and it holds my SSR on full time. My heating element is now a 4500 Camco ULWD 220VAC element. I thought the HWD elements were the issue the first time but maybe its because I boil with the element on constantly. Does anyone else boil with the element held on and not in some sort of part time manual control? This is a standard water heater punched in the side of my 11gallon pot. No pump or recirc. I do boil full volume and do full volume or single sparge BIAB AG mash. I have done about 20 brews and definitely burned two of them and a few others may have of had a little funny taste. Should I build a PW circuit this weekend or do I need to change my setup to fix the issue?

 

[ChuckO]

I'd build a PWM circuit to control the SSR. I successfully boil 10 gal. batch (13 gal. wort) with a 5500 watt Camco ripple element set to 60 - 70% power. I bring it to a boil at about 90% and then dial it back when it gets close to boiling.

 

[ccbadd]

I bought one of the kits from Still Dragon talked about in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/stilldragon-com-diy-controller-419530/

It's a cheap and easy way to control your kettle without a PID.

 

[runningweird]

I just built a new panel with two PIDs, my old control box had a PID for the mash and a PWM for the boil. I would turn the pwm up to about 60 percent then dial it back when I got a nice boil. I have burnt a few batches, it sucks and they never get better. make sure there isn't any left over burnt stuff on your element - that could kill you even if you run the element at a lower percentage. A PWM requires an SSR and a little bit of electrical knowlege, it isn't too hard to set up. The option from above is a good one, takes some of the risk out of the equation.

check out the pwm thread and my posts here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/pwm-show-us-how-221301/index25.html#post3637430

 

[bigdongsr94]

runningweird, did you burn batches with a PWM type of setup or is the possibility to burn always there?

 

[MercMan]

So I burnt another batch last night. I have burnt them before and I thought it was due to HWD heating elements. I use the MYPIN ebay controller I think TA4. It does not have a manual control. I just flip a switch for boil and it holds my SSR on full time. My heating element is now a 4500 Camco ULWD 220VAC element. I thought the HWD elements were the issue the first time but maybe its because I boil with the element on constantly. Does anyone else boil with the element held on and not in some sort of part time manual control? This is a standard water heater punched in the side of my 11gallon pot. No pump or recirc. I do boil full volume and do full volume or single sparge BIAB AG mash. I have done about 20 brews and definitely burned two of them and a few others may have of had a little funny taste. Should I build a PW circuit this weekend or do I need to change my setup to fix the issue?

The MYPIN controller works great for mash control but not for boil control. A good solution is a phase angle controller like the one www.stilldragon.com sells as a kit or the one www.kegkits.com sells complete.

 

[jeffmeh]

If you already have wired in a PID, why not swap it out for one with manual mode? That should be fairly straightforward at a price comparable to what it would take to build/buy a PWM.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Not really a question of how to get a PWM control, more of a question if that is what it takes to eliminate burnt boils with electric. Kind of wanting feedback about using PWM. Has they worked for others to eliminate burnt boils.

 

[runningweird]

runningweird, did you burn batches with a PWM type of setup or is the possibility to burn always there?

I did burn a few with a PWM, twice because I had it on above a seventy to eight five percent duty cycle( duty cycle is how many times per unit of time the SSR will turn on, higher cycle leads to hotter temperatures. and another few because I hadn't cleaned my elements after making high wheat content beers. The danger is always there if you run the element too hot. I use ulwd elements, the ripple camco 5500w.

I love my pwm, I am having problems with getting a PID working properly right now, it is stopping me from having a 100% working control panel and it is driving me nuts. I am considering wiring the pwm in just as a working fix.

 

[MercMan]

Not really a question of how to get a PWM control, more of a question if that is what it takes to eliminate burnt boils with electric. Kind of wanting feedback about using PWM. Has they worked for others to eliminate burnt boils.

Yes they have because PWM or phase angle both drop the surface temperature of the element when you turn them down.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Ok. Thanks. It's a long story but I have a Plc in my control box though I ended up just using the eBay pid controller. I through together a bit of logic to make my own duty cycle based on an analog input with a pot on it. Gonna build and test tonight. Basically it sounds like don't boil harder than I need to. I have a total of three ruined and two were darker than 12 srm and one was a wheat. Normally I make pales. So hopefully I can use this info and NOT burn my beer. That is an awful loss.

 

[MercMan]

Just as a reference, I run my phase angle controller full-on to bring my batch up to full boil then I turn the knob down to a slow steady boil. I need to slightly adjust the knob on my controller maybe twice after the initial setting during a 1.5 hour boil.

I though about doing PWM because my stir plate is PWM but phase angle was cheaper and took fewer parts for 240V. One should work as well as the other.

 

[skipper1953]

Be sure you keep your wort moving while it is coming up to a boil. BIAB, at least in my experience, can allow more particulate matter to get into the boil kettle. If this material settles to the bottom of the kettle it is likely to become scorched. Once your wort starts to boil, there should be enough of a current to keep the trub from collecting in the bottom of the kettle.

A kettle with PWM control can/will scorch wort just like any other control method if not properly adjusted. Since you are already set up with a PID controller I would recommend getting a different PID that has manual mode. The Auber Instruments SYL-2352 PID controllers work well for me.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Just wanted to kind if close this up:
Built my pulse width with a PLC I already had in my system. Re-did my Friday night scorched recipe on Sunday night with a boil intensity pot adjustment. My boil was pretty good even at 50% duty cycle. I did boil off much less but all is well. The wort tasted good and was already bubbling in the fermenter after just 8 hours. My conclusion I think most already know but you need some kind of adjustment for boil intensity when doing electric. My problem was I simply didnt know I had to have that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Be sure you keep your wort moving while it is coming up to a boil. BIAB, at least in my experience, can allow more particulate matter to get into the boil kettle. If this material settles to the bottom of the kettle it is likely to become scorched. Once your wort starts to boil, there should be enough of a current to keep the trub from collecting in the bottom of the kettle.

.

This! You don't want your element sitting in the stagnant trub while coming up to boil. Stirring a few times makes all the difference. My only burned batch, I took a half hour break after mash and before boil, the trub all settled down near the element and burnt. Had I stirred I doubt it would have burned.