Need a mini-mash with Vienna Malts?

[HopHead73]

I converted this recipe from all-grain to extract.
It calls for 3lbs of Vienna Malts and as I read more it says not to steep these.
So should I do a mini-mash with all of my grains?
I read a suggestion saying to do it in about 1gallon of water @ 154degrees for 60mins and then dunk the grain bag in the brew kettle that has the rest of the water heating up instead of sparging.
I'm also assuming that even though I am doing a partial mash I should still leave the malt extract amounts the same?

here is the recipe:

Boil Size: 3.75
Boil Time: 75 min
Est Original Gravity: 1.093 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.018
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.84 %
Bitterness: 133 IBU
Est Color: 9.6 SRM

11 lbs Briess Golden Light Liquid Extract
3 lbs Weyermann Vienna Malts
1 lb Briess 2 Row Caramel 20L Malt
.5 lb Briess Organic Cara-Pils
.5 lb Gambrinus Honey Malt

.82 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop)
.66 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (60 min)
.66 oz Chinook [12.40 %] (45 min)
.66 oz Centennial [11.50 %] (30 min)
.66 oz Citra [11.00 %] (15 min)
.66 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (10 min)
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep)
2.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep)
3.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 12 days)
1 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (Dry Hop 12 days)
1.00 tab Whirlfloc (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.10 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 4.88 % (Boil 10.0 min)

 

[Yooper]

Yes, just mash the grains. Vienna can convert itself, and the other grains, so your grain bill is fine.

Use 1.25-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. That would be 6.26- 10 quarts of water total for the mash. If you have a deep but not wide pot, you could go with the lesser amount of water. My pot was wide, so I would have gone with the larger volume. You want to have the grain very loose in the bag (use two or more bags if necessary) so that the grain is thoroughly wetted.

I'd bring the water to 165, and turn off the heat and add the grain. Stir very well and check the temperature. It should be 152-156 or so. That's fine, and then you can cover the pot and wait an hour. Some people like to put their mash in a prewarmed oven, to hold the heat in. (Turn the oven off!).

After an hour, you can lift out the grain bags and dunk it in 2 gallons of 170 degree water in your brewpot, "teabagging" the grain bags. Then just lift them out with tongs and let them drip out and then throw the grains away. Combine your runnings and proceed.

As far as the amount of extract used, it depends on the OG you're shooting for. With three pounds of Vienna malt, you should get about 15 OG points in a 5 gallon batch.

If you want to post the original AG recipe, I can look it over and see if the amounts are about right.

 

[HopHead73]

Here is the All-Gran version

Boil Size: 7.11
Boil Time: 60 min
Taste Rating(out of 50): 42.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Mash Temperature: 150 F
Mash Time: 60 Minutes
Yeast Starter: 1 vial of WLP001, 1000mL stepped to 2000mL, stepped to 4000mL
**Yeast was about 1 month old, starter size may vary***

**Efficency was calculated @ 70% Brewhouse***
Est Original Gravity: 1.098 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.05 %
Bitterness: 138.2 IBU
Calories: 458 cal/pint
Est Color: 8.8 SRM

14.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.73 %
3.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 14.63 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.88 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.44 %
0.50 lb Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2.44 %

1.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 45.3IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (60 min) Hops 27.5 IBU
1.00 oz Chinook [12.40 %] (45 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [11.50 %] (30 min) Hops 19.1 IBU
1.00 oz Citra [11.00 %] (15 min) Hops 11.8 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (10 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.40 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
2.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
3.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.00 tab Whirlfloc (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.10 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.40 lb Honey (0.0 SRM) Sugar 4.88% *** OR *** 1.00 lb Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 4.88 % (Boil 10.0 min)
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale

 

[jhamilt]

Looks like a great recipe! I'm not sure what your setup is like, but aeration is really important for high gravity beers like this one. If you can hit it with a second dose of oxygen 12 to 18 hours after the start of fermentation it'll improve attenuation and reduce off-flavors. Also, are you planning on doing two starters like the all-grain recipe?

 

[HopHead73]

Looks like a great recipe! I'm not sure what your setup is like, but aeration is really important for high gravity beers like this one. If you can hit it with a second dose of oxygen 12 to 18 hours after the start of fermentation it'll improve attenuation and reduce off-flavors. Also, are you planning on doing two starters like the all-grain recipe?

Never thought of a 2nd O2 dose. I'll take that into account on brew day.

I was just going to do a 1.5L starter w/ 2 Wyeast packs per Mr.Malty's yeast calculator

 

[HopHead73]

Yes, just mash the grains. Vienna can convert itself, and the other grains, so your grain bill is fine.

Use 1.25-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. That would be 6.26- 10 quarts of water total for the mash. If you have a deep but not wide pot, you could go with the lesser amount of water. My pot was wide, so I would have gone with the larger volume. You want to have the grain very loose in the bag (use two or more bags if necessary) so that the grain is thoroughly wetted.

I'd bring the water to 165, and turn off the heat and add the grain. Stir very well and check the temperature. It should be 152-156 or so. That's fine, and then you can cover the pot and wait an hour. Some people like to put their mash in a prewarmed oven, to hold the heat in. (Turn the oven off!).

After an hour, you can lift out the grain bags and dunk it in 2 gallons of 170 degree water in your brewpot, "teabagging" the grain bags. Then just lift them out with tongs and let them drip out and then throw the grains away. Combine your runnings and proceed.

As far as the amount of extract used, it depends on the OG you're shooting for. With three pounds of Vienna malt, you should get about 15 OG points in a 5 gallon batch.

If you want to post the original AG recipe, I can look it over and see if the amounts are about right.

I plugged the recipe into Beersmith as a partial mash and to get the estimated FG to 1.095 I had to drop the Malt Extract from 11pounds to 8.5pounds.
I'm assuming this is correct since doing the partial mash will extract sugar from the Vienna Malts.
Sound right?
And I readjusted my hops for the correct IBU target.

 

[Calder]

3 lbs Weyermann Vienna Malts
1 lb Briess 2 Row Caramel 20L Malt
.5 lb Briess Organic Cara-Pils
.5 lb Gambrinus Honey Malt

If you are going to do a partial mash, you should mash all the grains. The honey malt needs mashing anyway. With the crystal and Carapils, although you get sugars from them by steeping, they still have starches that need to be mashed to convert to sugars.

I use 1.3 quarts of water per lb, or for 5 lbs use 6.5 quarts. As noted earlier, once the mash is over rinse in some 170 F water, then drain and add the liquid that drains.

For a beer this big, I'd try mashing about 148-150 F, to get a more fermentable wort. Get the water to 160 F and add the grains, and the temperature should drop to somewhere around the high 140s. Mash for 45 minutes, stir regularly.

These 5 lbs should get you about the same sugars as roughly 4 lbs of LME (will vary depending on the conversion and extraction efficiency of your mash).

 

[HopHead73]

3 lbs Weyermann Vienna Malts
1 lb Briess 2 Row Caramel 20L Malt
.5 lb Briess Organic Cara-Pils
.5 lb Gambrinus Honey Malt

If you are going to do a partial mash, you should mash all the grains. The honey malt needs mashing anyway. With the crystal and Carapils, although you get sugars from them by steeping, they still have starches that need to be mashed to convert to sugars.

I use 1.3 quarts of water per lb, or for 5 lbs use 6.5 quarts. As noted earlier, once the mash is over rinse in some 170 F water, then drain and add the liquid that drains.

For a beer this big, I'd try mashing about 148-150 F, to get a more fermentable wort. Get the water to 160 F and add the grains, and the temperature should drop to somewhere around the high 140s. Mash for 45 minutes, stir regularly.

These 5 lbs should get you about the same sugars as roughly 4 lbs of LME (will vary depending on the conversion and extraction efficiency of your mash).

This seems like the way to go for me. Thanks everyone for the help!

I'm going to go off of the numbers I'm getting from Beersmith for the amount of malt extract and hops I should use.
Using 8.5lbs of Light LME with 2lbs before the boil and 6.5lbs at the last 15mins of the boil along with the partial mash I should hit a gravity of 1.095.

 

[Yooper]

This seems like the way to go for me. Thanks everyone for the help!

I'm going to go off of the numbers I'm getting from Beersmith for the amount of malt extract and hops I should use.
Using 8.5lbs of Light LME with 2lbs before the boil and 6.5lbs at the last 15mins of the boil along with the partial mash I should hit a gravity of 1.095.

What do you have set for your mash efficiency? I'd go with 65% or so in Beersmith.

 

[HopHead73]

What do you have set for your mash efficiency? I'd go with 65% or so in Beersmith.

Very good point. I totally forgot to change that.
It was on 72%, therefore when I change it to 65% I just have to bump the LME from 8.5 to 9lbs.