http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-24/nd-proposal-would-let-home-beer-makers-sell-suds.html
Do any other states allow this?
Do any other states allow this?
ND proposal would let home beer makers sell suds
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BendBrewer
Well-Known Member
Not sure but I have been in contact with my State Rep recently regarding changes to Oregon Laws and had proposed a similar law. He actually replied:
WOW... just read the article. That is stupendous! If they already allow it for wine and spirits, seems like a no-brainer. Seems like it is structured similar to what you see other hobbyists selling at fairs and farmers markets: produce, jelly's, sauces, pies, etc.
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
Hey BendBrewer, what was the text of your letter? I'm thinking I may send one to my state rep as well. Selling homebrew could be a lucrative supplemental income...
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
That sounds promising. I highly doubt such an enlightened bill would make it very far in Texas...
BendBrewer
Well-Known Member
I just mentioned that under current law that I can't take my beer to a dinner party. Can't give it to friends. I suggested increasing the legal limit but I think that is set at the Federal Level and to allow home brewers to sell their crafts at places like the Farmer's Market.
Minnesota recently passed a bill to allow "basement brewers" to see their beer.
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This is awesome! A breakthrough for sure. I'd like to go check out some homebrew festivals in ND (summertime though).
EinGutesBiersSWMBO
Well-Known Member
I've been watching this Representative for awhile now, after he had mentioned doing a farming distillery bill, or something on that line.
It's really nice to see something like this go up to legislature here. We've got zero breweries and horribly one sided distributorship laws. It is really uncalled for when you consider that are the third highest in beer consumption per capita.
I've got my fingers crossed in North Dakota!
Bismarck Tribunes Article
It's really nice to see something like this go up to legislature here. We've got zero breweries and horribly one sided distributorship laws. It is really uncalled for when you consider that are the third highest in beer consumption per capita.
I've got my fingers crossed in North Dakota!
Bismarck Tribunes Article
peregrinebio
Well-Known Member
No breweries! And I thought moving to VA from WA state was going to beer hell. I hope for your sake this goes through, I don't know what the political climate is in ND, but this is a very enlightened bill. It will really help put the craft in brewing.
Sardoman
Well-Known Member
Congressman named Conger? Bwahahahaha! Priceless!
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
i hope this is accurate, because it'd give me more ammo against minnesotians....
rico567
Well-Known Member
OK, so the state lets you off the hook in selling homebrew. I'll ask the obvious question: doesn't the homebrewer have to jump through the same hoops for the Federal alcohol tax as any other alcohol producer if they sell it? Or can they sell up to the 200 gal. limit sans Federal tax?
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm not really sure how that would work. I suppose you could sell the beer and not get in trouble on the state front but without the TTB license you would still be at risk for getting in trouble with the TTB.
Seems like the bill was either drafted with no idea that there are federal regulations on brewing or it is intended to let people assume the risk that the TTB isn't going to show up in ND or that people there won't get audited.
EinGutesBiersSWMBO
Well-Known Member
I really wish I knew more. Though I don't really have a desire to sell homebrew, if the license wasn't to much of a hassle it might be beneficial to our Homebrew Club to have to sell at trade shows, concerts, and other local events.
Here's the document from the state's site: HOUSE BILL NO. 1339; Domestic brewery license.
Here's the document from the state's site: HOUSE BILL NO. 1339; Domestic brewery license.
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This is really exciting. Lets hope the landslide moves on to Ohio
Then I can start charging all my mooch friends! haha Not to mention it will free up a lot of Tx's server space when all those threads about selling stop
Then I can start charging all my mooch friends! haha Not to mention it will free up a lot of Tx's server space when all those threads about selling stop 
PanzerBanana
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm gonna have to start writing here. Indiana is getting pretty beer friendly.
Like it was stated, this would be a great way for home brewers to make a little extra dough with their hobby just like others that sell their homemade goods. Not like we don't already know how to check IDs.
Like it was stated, this would be a great way for home brewers to make a little extra dough with their hobby just like others that sell their homemade goods. Not like we don't already know how to check IDs.
MikeRoBrew1
Well-Known Member
Yooper I am in MN and a google search brought me this document which says we still need to be ATF certified. Any updates on this I may have missed? Thanks!
http://mnbeer.com/2010/03/11/the-lowdown-on-basement-brewing/
http://mnbeer.com/2010/03/11/the-lowdown-on-basement-brewing/
MNBeer
New Member
The post from MNBeer is accurate... The law was designed to help out a Kombucha brewer who wanted to brew below grade. It really had nothing to do with homebrewing per se... the AP took the story in the wrong direction and ran with it.
I'm no lawyer, though the North Dakota thing makes me wonder... IIRC, the ATF isn't supportive of combined brewery/living spaces and even if such a law passed in North Dakota, you're still going to have to deal with the federal regulations.
I'm no lawyer, though the North Dakota thing makes me wonder... IIRC, the ATF isn't supportive of combined brewery/living spaces and even if such a law passed in North Dakota, you're still going to have to deal with the federal regulations.
Mischief_Brewing
Well-Known Member
I'd love to see something like this hit New Jersey, who seem to be completely confused about the home wine and beer making (permit required and it specifically states you cannot remove your beverage from your property, but they allow homebrew competitions?). I'm really interested in finding out how this will mesh with the Feds and their insistence on collecting their money...
Carter1932
#burp
Distilling is illegal throughout the country, so I find it curious that the article says homemade 'booze' can already be sold.
Maybe state rights are on the rebound. California and Colorado have decriminalized pot, whereas the Feds have not. Maybe this is another law along those lines.
Article seems a bit dubious to me.
Maybe state rights are on the rebound. California and Colorado have decriminalized pot, whereas the Feds have not. Maybe this is another law along those lines.
Article seems a bit dubious to me.
Hex
Well-Known Member
Interesting, I expect pot will be totally legal here come next election, but never homebrew sales. Too many big wine lobbyists to ever let us little people fly free.
Also, I can't imagine my urban neighbors being very happy with abundant hop boils...
Also, I can't imagine my urban neighbors being very happy with abundant hop boils...
I don't think something like this will be the watershed event that some think it is.
1) It's a proposal. Anyone can write one. It's not that hard to get 1 state legislator to sponsor it. The path to passing it will certainly see opposition from existing breweries and distributors. ND being a less populous state only means that this will get possibly further faster or may not see as much big opposition.
2) You will still probably also still have to follow all other local and state laws. Licensing, inspection, zoning. Some states require ABV labeling. Precise AVB with pretty exacting tolerances. My guess is if anything resemble homebrewing, it'll be much closer to nanobrewing.
3) Expect heavy neo-prohibitionists to oppose. MADD will certainly object. Why??? Because that's how they fund raise.
4) This will really mess with the three tier arrangements that built every major distributor in the country. They are built for large scale and they will crush this.
1) It's a proposal. Anyone can write one. It's not that hard to get 1 state legislator to sponsor it. The path to passing it will certainly see opposition from existing breweries and distributors. ND being a less populous state only means that this will get possibly further faster or may not see as much big opposition.
2) You will still probably also still have to follow all other local and state laws. Licensing, inspection, zoning. Some states require ABV labeling. Precise AVB with pretty exacting tolerances. My guess is if anything resemble homebrewing, it'll be much closer to nanobrewing.
3) Expect heavy neo-prohibitionists to oppose. MADD will certainly object. Why??? Because that's how they fund raise.
4) This will really mess with the three tier arrangements that built every major distributor in the country. They are built for large scale and they will crush this.
And yes, the MN law has absolutely nothing to do with homebrewing. The AP messed that story up.
Hermit
fuddle
Wow. Do they currently have to wear blindfolds when brewing? Or only if they brew in the basement? Seeing their beer would be pretty damned helpful. :rockin:
EinGutesBiersSWMBO
Well-Known Member
For those who are curious, I was told by a fellow homebrewer that testified at the hearing that the bill came out of the IBL house committee with a 10-4 do pass recommendation.
So basically this is a non-story...It wasn't really about homebrewing, OR selling homebrewing, but being allowed to brew Kombucha commercially.
Okay...
I mean really, does anyone think that this would ever happen? That someone would even float a bill on making the sale of HB legal? Does anyone not think that one of the largest parts of the alcohol lobby is going to be made up of BMC representatives, who are already constantly at work making it somewhat difficult for the CRAFT BEER industry to easily operate, let alone allow FURTHER cutting in of their profit by a bunch of pissant homebrewers with stars in their eyes? Come on, haven't you ever wondered why it even took homebrewing of beer 40 years AFTER the repeal of the volestead act to be legalized? You don't think there was a little backroom finelagaling going on back then? You think they want us selling our homebrew even at the farmer's market? Come on folks....I don't believe in the vast bmc conspirary as promoted by Beer Wars, but I do have a little idea about politics and business.
Okay...
I mean really, does anyone think that this would ever happen? That someone would even float a bill on making the sale of HB legal? Does anyone not think that one of the largest parts of the alcohol lobby is going to be made up of BMC representatives, who are already constantly at work making it somewhat difficult for the CRAFT BEER industry to easily operate, let alone allow FURTHER cutting in of their profit by a bunch of pissant homebrewers with stars in their eyes? Come on, haven't you ever wondered why it even took homebrewing of beer 40 years AFTER the repeal of the volestead act to be legalized? You don't think there was a little backroom finelagaling going on back then? You think they want us selling our homebrew even at the farmer's market? Come on folks....I don't believe in the vast bmc conspirary as promoted by Beer Wars, but I do have a little idea about politics and business.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
From reading the text, it looks like it just creates a low threshold brewers permit that allows small breweries to sell direct to retail customers but not to wholesale distributors. I don't see how it permits people to avoid a health inspection, avoid TTB licensing requirements, etc. It seems like more of an exception license to a tiered distribution regime.
To Revvy's point, if this law really permitted homebrewers to sell beer -- and I do not believe that would be the effect of the law -- national and regional breweries would get up in there and kill the bill quickly. It's one thing to have to compete with identifiable small breweries that can only sell through specific venues. It's another to try to compete with an unidentifiable set of competitors that can sell anywhere at a significantly lower price because there's no advertising or distribution costs. Homebrewers will never be allowed to sell their beer without going professional.
To Revvy's point, if this law really permitted homebrewers to sell beer -- and I do not believe that would be the effect of the law -- national and regional breweries would get up in there and kill the bill quickly. It's one thing to have to compete with identifiable small breweries that can only sell through specific venues. It's another to try to compete with an unidentifiable set of competitors that can sell anywhere at a significantly lower price because there's no advertising or distribution costs. Homebrewers will never be allowed to sell their beer without going professional.
The part about the tax per can of beer should be pretty telling.
Lets not be presumptuous about how magnanimous craft beer would be. They would also want to crush it.
Lets not be presumptuous about how magnanimous craft beer would be. They would also want to crush it.
Heck yeah, I thought of that after I hit send and shut the computer down to leave work. You'd see them aligned with "big beer" to quash it as well.
There have been a couple of posts on here where the gild has fallen off the lilly of some of our more naive members when they learned that reps of some of our more famouse craft breweries sit on brewing organizations with reps from "big beer."
I was thinking about this last night and decided to dig around for an update. It looks as if this passed the State House by the large margin of 78-13 and has had its first reading in the Senate. http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/bill-actions/ba1339.html
rico567
Well-Known Member
To reinforce "Revvy"'s posts we have what's currently underway here in IL. The state allowed craft / micro brewers to self-distribute several years ago. Now Bud InBev has got a judge to declare the law unconstitutional, because it discriminates against companies that dominate the beer market >90%. Nevertheless, the legislature in Springfield has been pushed to act (which, under any circumstances, scares those of us who are, ah, fortunate enough to live in the "Land of Lincoln").
The best possibility is for the state to confine self-distribution by output. I've read that the current proposal would be that brewers who did <60K bbl. per year would be able to self-distribute, which would get rid of the problem with the earlier statute. Will it happen? In Illinois, who knows? The only thing really good for homebrewers here would be if Michael Madigan (the guy who really calls the shots in this state- the Governor doesn't take a squat without calling him) became a homebrewer.
I feel that I must also reinforce the idea that NOTHING North Dakota (or any other state) does can remove the problem of dealing with the Fed. You sell ONE bottle of beer, they are going to want their taxes. If they catch you, I promise that you will learn that the saying "It's always easier to obtain forgiveness than permission" does NOT apply where the IRS is concerned. You will pay tax, and you will pay penalty, and that is if it's your lucky, lucky day.
The best possibility is for the state to confine self-distribution by output. I've read that the current proposal would be that brewers who did <60K bbl. per year would be able to self-distribute, which would get rid of the problem with the earlier statute. Will it happen? In Illinois, who knows? The only thing really good for homebrewers here would be if Michael Madigan (the guy who really calls the shots in this state- the Governor doesn't take a squat without calling him) became a homebrewer.
I feel that I must also reinforce the idea that NOTHING North Dakota (or any other state) does can remove the problem of dealing with the Fed. You sell ONE bottle of beer, they are going to want their taxes. If they catch you, I promise that you will learn that the saying "It's always easier to obtain forgiveness than permission" does NOT apply where the IRS is concerned. You will pay tax, and you will pay penalty, and that is if it's your lucky, lucky day.
