Naturally Carbonating a Keg - hand pump

[Goliathnz]

Howdy,
So gas down here in New Zealand is expensive, and my english mate and I are trying (with success I might add) to naturally carbonate beer in our sanke kegs.
The stout in the 25l works a treat, I hardly need to pump it at all. Like at all, the sugar I primed it with seems to keep on presureizing the keg.
We made a Real Ale in the 50litre, which isn't meant to be too carbed, if at all.

My question is - do you think we are asking for trouble (spoil) by keeping the kegs open for over 3 weeks, and using the handpump -like the one below (the beer still tastes fine 3 weeks later btw).
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-US...505?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23145a2d41)

Do you think it is possible, along with the natural carb method I described, to use just one handpump for both kegs, and one tap for both kegs, using directional valves closing off each beer when the other is poured?

I haven't got a draft tower as yet, but the picture attached should clarify what I am trying to do. I haven't hooked the 2nd keg up just yet, I need some more hose.

Cheers for any suggestions.

 

[Hoodweisen]

someone with more knowledge than I will prob. sound off on this but my logic on this is that c02 is heavier than 0xygen so i would think that because u have carbed it there is co2 floating around in the headspace and essentially createing a vapor barrier keeping the beer safe

 

[audger]

i dont exactly understand what you are doing with the hand pump that has to do with carbonating the beer...?

naturally carbonating with yeast and sugar doesnt require pumping of any kind. are you using the pump to try and force CO2 into the beer somehow...? or just to keep a pre-carbonated keg at pressure while serving from it?

c02 is heavier than 0xygen so i would think that because u have carbed it there is co2 floating around in the headspace and essentially createing a vapor barrier keeping the beer safe

in some situations, like when the wort is fermenting, there is a CO2 barrier formed. the CO2 in the headspace alone will not protect the beer from oxygen unless the beer is actively and continuously producing CO2 to push the oxygen away. oxygen will quickly mix with CO2 in the headspace.

its true that if you took a sample from the bottom of a container of an O2/CO2 mixture, the bottom sample would have a higher concentration of CO2, and a sample from the top would have more O2 than the bottom. but there would still be CO2 in the top, and O2 in the bottom.

 

[Goliathnz]

Yeah the hand pump was just to make sure the beer would expel itself, as this is my first attempt at kegging.
I guess I didn't trust the beer would flow by itself?
So you reckon only use the pump if really necessary?

 

[day_trippr]

The less oxygen you introduce to a container of beer, the better. And you can forget about any "CO2 blanket" thing - that isn't going to protect the beer from the ever-increasing oxygen content in the head space every time you pump more air into the keg...

Cheers!

 

[audger]

Yeah the hand pump was just to make sure the beer would expel itself, as this is my first attempt at kegging.
I guess I didn't trust the beer would flow by itself?
So you reckon only use the pump if really necessary?

while it is necessary to keep the pressure up to prevent the beer from going flat (if you arent drinking the whole keg in a few days), pumping oxygen in is probably worse than flat beer.

i would seriously consider either getting an actual CO2 setup, or bottling your beer since you dont have the equipment necessary to keg. i know you said it "tastes fine", which if you want to drink oxygenated beer you are free to do so. however if you knew what the difference tasted like, or you wanted other people to enjoy the best beer possible, you would definately want CO2 instead.

also- you are pumping unsanitary, unfiltered air into the keg of unpasturized homebrew. if its not stored cold, you could easily get an infection that turns it undrinkable, or worse, makes people sick.

 

[kpr121]

If you want to keep it cheap and simple (and free of oxygen as others have described as being negative), you could get one of those little keg chargers that use 8-16 gram CO2 cartridges and rig it up to your (sanke?) tap gas input. Cant exactly tell from the pictures but you could find the fittings to get to a barbed line then hook up the CO2 charger to that.

 

[Goliathnz]

Cheers fellas for your input. It sounds like I need to stop using the handpump for sanitary reasons, especially since we are heading into summer.
I will look into the mini co2 chargers... but it seems like I will just use the natural pressure, which I think will do just fine

 

[Goliathnz]

Cheers fellas for your input. It sounds like I need to stop using the handpump for sanitary reasons, especially since we are heading into summer.
I will look into the mini co2 chargers... but it seems like I will just use the natural pressure, which I think will do just fine

 

[kpr121]

That natural pressure is going to be displaced within the first 2-3 pours. Then you will not be able to get any beer out unless you are using some sort of gravity system (look up cask or real ale), or you add some pressure (either via CO2 or handpump). If you are going to be consuming the entire keg within a short period of time, a hand pump will be fine. Otherwise you are going to oxygenate the beer and youll be tasting wet cardboard before you know it.

To me, spoilage and contamination are not the problems to be worried about, its the wet cardboard taste you are absolutely going to experience with long term hand pumping.

Naturally carbonating a keg is a great way to save on gas. When us keggers force carb that uses up a lot of CO2. It doesnt take a lot of gas to displace a keg, I would imagine that one 5 lb tank would easily last a normal drinker over a year if they were only using it to dispense. Something to think about. If you can get a CO2 system, you will be a happy kegger.

 

[bitmask]

So gas down here in New Zealand is expensive

Is it just not available or what? Seems strange that it should be that much more expensive -- it's not like it has to be shipped from the northern hemisphere.

 

[Goliathnz]

Ah I guess looking a little more into it, new 2kg 4.5lb gas bottles are $300 USD, $500 for 10lb bottles and they go for over $120 2nd hand...

Re-filling isn't too bad from what I hear, $30usd from some NZ forums.

So I guess it's just biting the bullet for a Co2 tank.

I am looking into the paintball Co2 mini tanks to see if they could be an option for filling up that extra head space.

I'll need to have a look at how the Real Ales are done in the UK, without gas and a hand pump, because when I worked in an old pub there I swear those hand-pull beer engines simply put dirty old pub air back into the cask.

 

[bitmask]

Wow, that's an expensive tank. I guess they do have to get that from the northern hemisphere.

 

[solbes]

Naturally carb your kegs with priming sugar, just like bottling but with half the sugar. Yeah you will get some sediment on the first pour or two, but big deal.

Then see how much the keg chargers cost (16 g CO2 cartridges). It will take four or five 16g cartridges to dispense 5 gallons. Your beer will maintain carbonation and will not be oxidized like one of those hand pumps.

Compare the costs of the CO2 tank + refills vs the keg charger 16g cartridges. Keep in mind you can get dispensing for 15-20 five gallon kegs using just 5 lbs of CO2 if you naturally carbonate with priming sugar. Go with what's cheaper and easier.

Cheers!

 

[audger]

new 2kg 4.5lb gas bottles are $300 USD, $500 for 10lb bottles and they go for over $120 2nd hand...

holy crap man...

in that case, just buy it from some seller in the US and pay the shipping charge. there are 10lb tanks around here for $80US (New). even if shipping were another $100US, you would still be saving $300...

 

[Goliathnz]

So a mate works in a gun shop, he gave me a deal on a 20oz refillable ($7) Co2 tank, and a ... stretchy quick connect (for paintball obvioulsy) with on/off gas line which I now only need to find a double ended female thread to put on my keg coupler and stretchy gas line.
$100 usd all up so not too bad in the end, for non-cardboard tasting beer let's hope!!
Cheers for all the helpful comments.

 

[solbes]

Just make sure you carb your keg with sugar then, or you'd constantly be refilling that tank. If you do it this way you should still get a few kegs to dispense between refills. Sounds like you got a good deal, especially when compared to the expensive costs over there.

 

[audger]

20oz will normally dispense about 10-20 gallons of beer. if you are smart, you can turn down the pressure when the keg starts to get empty to conseve CO2 (filling 5 gallons of space with 10psi takes twice the amount of gas as filling the same space with 5psi).

or if you want to keep the full amount of pressure all the way through, you can use the gas inside an empty keg to dispense another. (one 5gal keg of beer + one 5gal keg of CO2@10psi eventually= two empty kegs @ 5psi; assuming the beer is carbonated). so you can keep the beer on full pressure CO2 to stay carbonated, and then while serving just use an empty but partly-pressurized keg to dispense. this method requires a few extra kegs though, and some hoses to connect the two.