My take on Dead Ringer - DOA?! What happened?

[72hw]

OK...

My first AG BIAB batch is in the keg, and while drinkable, it suffers from an identity crisis. Though based on the NB Dead Ringer recipe, it drinks kinda like a slightly more hoppy BMC. When I brewed the NB Dead Ringer extract kit a while back it was much, much better. It actually had a malt backbone with a discernible hop aroma and flavor.

My BIAB version does not.

It's got quite an even bitterness throughout, with some hoppiness to it but exactly zero aroma and a watery, thin body.

I will now admit to the fact I rushed this beer to be ready for the holiday party at work tomorrow. It sat in primary for 7 days, was racked to secondary and dry hopped for 5 days then cold crashed @ 2* C for 48 hours prior to being kegged.

All in it was 2 weeks grain to glass and all gravity readings agreed it was done.

Don't get me wrong, it's very drinkable - almost too drinkable for those not familiar with nearly 8% beer... but it's NOT the IPA I was hoping it would be.

So, where did it go wrong?

Here's what I did in recipe form:

Brew Method: BIAB
Style: American IPA

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4.8 gallons (full volume w/ boil and trub loss calculated... kinda.)
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.031
Measured Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.040 after a squeeze of the bag.

STATS:
Target OG: 1.062
Measured OG:1.064
NOTE: Added ~1 Cup DME to hit OG mark as boil off loss was not as much as I had figured so I was looking at a diluted wort going into the FV.

Target FG: 1.015
Measured FG: 1.004

Target ABV (standard): 6.08%
Measured ABV via NB calc: 7.792%


FERMENTABLES (Double Milled):
5.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (91.7%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 40L (8.3%)

MASH GUIDELINES:
Strike: 156 F
Mash: 152 F
Time: 60 min

HOPS (ALL PELLET):
0.4 oz - Magnum AA: 15.2 FWH
0.5 oz - Centennial AA: 10 20 min
1 oz - Centennial AA: 10 5 min, IBU: 18
1 oz - Cascade AA: 7 Whirlpool for 15 min at 170°F
0.5 oz - Centennial AA: 10 Dry Hop for 5 days


OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 tablet of Whirlfloc @ 15 min
1 tsp Gypsum added to Mash

YEAST:
Wyeast - American Ale 1056
Starter: No - pitched full Smack Pack
Form: Liquid

Ptich Temp: ~70 F

Fermentation Temp: 65 F in fermentation chamber.

My thoughts on what went wrong:

1) Over pitched the yeast? I've seen some information out there that seems to indicate over pitching yeast, especially aggressive ones, may strip hop flavor and thin out the body of the beer. Smack Packs are intended for 5 gallon batches, this was a 2.5 gallon batch... Just sayin.

2) Recipe adjustments not properly executed? I know my pre-boil volume was off, but adjusted with DME to make up for the missing gravity points. Did I miss the mark with the hops?

3) Conversion? This seems unlikely as I overshot my FG, but I did not do the iodine test, only relied on the refractometer to give me a pre-boil gravity. Besides, could starch conversion have an effect on hop utilization?


So there you have it... Though I'm specifically looking for theories on what happened to my flavors, thoughts are welcome on any part of my process!

 

[dkennedy]

Are you confident in your mash temp (e.g. thermometer is accurate)?

 

[72hw]

Are you confident in your mash temp (e.g. thermometer is accurate)?

Using a ThemaPen that has been confirmed as accurate against a calibrated lab grade thermo couple a while back. It also agrees with my fermentation chamber probe, so I think it's solid enough.

If the mash was too hot it would have shown up downstream as unfermentable sugars, right? Guess it's possible it was on the low side, but not more than a couple degrees. Could explain the over attenuation if I created some kinda super sweet wort by mashing too cool?

The one thing I'm not sure on is mash pH. I have Whatmann strips, but don't trust them much. Looking into getting a meter or borrowing one from the lab, but as I use commercially processed RO water from one of those Glacier machines, I'm fairly confident it will be around 7 to start.

Does pH affect utilization of hops?

 

[bigdongsr94]

Dk,
I have made an extract with my father in law, dead ringer, and it was a joke. Not thin but not an IPA. Also one issue was the extract maybe was old and the beer ended up darker and mal tier. I understand that is way different but I have also made similar recipes AG and that little of hops does nothing for me. I brew with a pH meter and I have been told that a little higher say 5.4 is good for hops. Also gypsum additions to give you water profile a good chloride/sulfate balance. So others will tell you definitely look into your water. If your using straight RO I would prob add a tsp of CaCl and 2 tsp of gypsum (caso4) Back to my experience, I can't get enough from my hops but that little isn't going to do it IMO.

Edit, I see you do add some gypsum. Also the pitch is prob close to correct as a smack pack is short on cell counts for a 5g batch of a medium sized beer anyway. I don't recall the numbers but that's why a starter is used.

 

[thekraken]

Did you continuously measure the temp through the mash? I don't BIAB but the strike temp seems very low, based on that I would think that the mash temp settled in the 140's which could explain the over attenuation and no body. Did you direct fire your kettle or throw it in an oven or anything during the mash?

[Edit] As to your thoughts on what went wrong:
1. Overpitched - I don't think you could have overpitched. If anything, depending on the package date of the smack pack you may have underpitched. http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php

[Edit] Ran the numbers and it does seem like 156-157 was about the right strike temp for 6lbs grain and 4.8 gallons of strike water. Still wondering how you maintained the temp?

 

[DAJDive]

Like others have said, double check your mash temp through the mash process. I recently brewed a 3 Floyds Gumbballhead BIAB clone. I let the mash temp drop down to the mid-upper 140s. It is very thin and watery tasting. You also didn't mention if you are insulating your kettle during the mash. When I do BIAB, I cover/wrap the kettle with my dogs down comforter (yes, my dog has a down comforter).

 

[rabeb25]

Dollars to donuts, its water and high ph!

 

[dkennedy]

Could be. I'll noodle over this some more tonight.
One thought to bolster what you have- could dry-hop in the keg, to help manage the perception of thin body.

 

[flars]

My extract Dead Ringer is fantastic. Thought I made a mistake. Tasted Two Hearted after ordering the kit, bland, was not impressed.

Harvested WY 1056 fermentation temp 67°F to 69°F
OG 1.064
2 week primary fermentation, FG 1.011
16 day dry hop in the primary
3 weeks bottle conditioning 68°F, worried
4 weeks bottle conditioning, fantastic. Will brew this one many times.

I don't think you should rush a higher gravity IPA.

 

[72hw]

Thanks to all for the thoughts - the beer was actually a hit last night at the party, even with the few in attendance who know good beer. The home brewers who showed up though obviously felt the same way I do - that something went wrong somewhere.

That said, the over whelming opinion was Old Hops. The LHBS I purchased them from was running very low on Centenial before the new crop came in, so the dregs I used may have been oxidizing in the fridge for some time. They store bulk pellets in plastic jugs you see.

But - all points offered above for consideration are great! One common theme is my mash temp - I do indeed monitor throughout the mash and apply a small amount of heat when needed. I insulate the kettle with a wool moving blanket so it stays pretty stable and the brew day in question was in the upper 80's here in L.A. so I know it never dipped below target much, if at all.

As for pH - yes, a meter is on my short list of gear as soon as SWMBO lets her guard down.

At the end of the day I believe this brew went wrong due to old hops and way too few of them. Tweaking things to rebrew soon.

Oddly enough, the 48 hours carbbed in the keg actually made what I originally described as BMC taste pretty decent. For sure going to dry hop in the keg on the next batch!

Again, many thanks to all!

 

[dkennedy]

Interesting, been lucky enough to never have that be a problem. Thanks for circling back!

 

[Magnus314]

My experience has been that a fine grind + 60 minute mash = low FG. I had many beers in a row with around a 1.004 FG before i realized this and cut down to 30 minute mashes.

 

[72hw]

My experience has been that a fine grind + 60 minute mash = low FG. I had many beers in a row with around a 1.004 FG before i realized this and cut down to 30 minute mashes.

On my third AG BIAB now and am consistently over attenuating so I may try the 30 mash on the next batch. Assuming you are mashing in the 150 to 152 range - are you doing a mash out? I know it's not required, but all data is good data...

 

[Magnus314]

I mash at whatever temp the recipe requires... though honestly I can't say it seems to make much difference.

Mashing out is good if you're having low FG problems. I like to raise the bag at around 165* and let it drain while it heats toward boiling.

But the 30 minute mash made a big difference for me.

 

[covers42]

Be careful and not trust those water filter machines. Was buying some water for a reef tank and kept getting algae blooms. Water was loaded with phosphates, nitrates, etc. and was far worse than my well water.
Gallon bottled water is pretty good but can be a little acidic.

 

[72hw]

Be careful and not trust those water filter machines. Was buying some water for a reef tank and kept getting algae blooms. Water was loaded with phosphates, nitrates, etc. and was far worse than my well water.
Gallon bottled water is pretty good but can be a little acidic.

Bad to hear, good to know. The units I get water from are serviced weekly and I have talked to the tech who does it. He actually is really on top of his game which honestly surprised me. I work in a life science lab where water means quite a bit, so I guess I know what to listen for kinda... But yes, might have an analysis of the water done. Just wish someone in house could do it for me on a regular basis!

 

[covers42]

First couple of my kit all grains came in light on malt and when I went to bulk I just boost the level of Crystal. Recipe looks little light on initial hop for an IPA. I like a total IBU in the 60 range. Dead Ringer if I remember uses Centennial only which is like Cascade on Steroids. It has a lot of bitter and fruit taste. To match it on late addition you may need to double the Cascades.