My Picobrew Thread

[KCBigDog]

Just placed my order with AIH! Way too good of a deal to pass up with the free shipping, gift card, and points.

I was going to wait until next month, but didn't want to miss the deal.

Can't wait to get this bad boy! Never can find time to brew due to busy life and work. And recently moved to Elgin, IL where the winters make it nearly impossible to brew outside in the cold months.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Cross posting this, sorry to keep raining on everyone's parade:

PSA: this is now listed on AIH's site homebrewing.org with free shipping and their points system (%5 back) meaning that you save $160 in shipping vs buying it from PicoBrews site and can get $100 worth of points (enough for 2x3 gallon pinlocks and conversion posts.)

Good luck deal hunters!

AIH code DAD10 for 10% off just went live through 3PM 6/9

Just checked and it works on the PicoBrew (for now- bet they lock that down)That's $2k-10%-$50 Giftcard & $90 in points+ free shipping. Considering what I paid for shipping (more than they quoted now), that's less than the preorder cost. Recent orders might want to see if their credit cards will price match.

Also transferred my mosaic smash to secondary/keg on Sat. Its still not done (~1.011) but smells and tasted GREAT. Highly recommend doing your final hop addition to the brew keg in a bag.

 

[KCBigDog]

I would like to start putting recipes together and buy ingredients. For the PicoBrew, how many gallons do you scale to?

2.5 or 3 gallons??

 

[bobbytuck]

So long as the total grain bill is less than 9#, you're good to go. That might mean 2.5 gallon or 3 gallon recipes -- depending on style and OG/FG goals.

I've scaled to 3 gallons on several batches, and I've scaled to 2.5 gallons. It really depends on your style (and your willingness to experiment). When I've been too lazy to buy grain for a recipe, I've bought several of Northern Brewer's 3-gallon BIAB kits. They fit the Pico perfectly.

The Pico only has a few hard and fast guidelines:

a) Each of the four hop compartments can hold no more than 1.5 oz pellets (each)
b) Total grain can be no more than 9#
c) Starting water amount no more than 3.75 gallons.
d) Post-boil wort volume goal is always 2.5 to 2.75 gallons.

In practice, however, those guidelines are far less limiting than they might sound. Extract can be added to the boil to increase OG -- and the boil can be paused at the end to add more pellet hops. Lots of room for experimentation. I've had good luck with whirlpooling at the end of the boil, and I've been dry-hopping in the fermenting keg and in the serving keg with excellent results.

Lately, I've been scaling recipes (milds & stouts & porters) to half the normal (5 or 5.5 gallon) batches to make grain purchases easier. In other words, if a 5 gallon recipe calls for 7# of 2-row, I just cut it in half -- 3.5# -- for the Pico. Hop utilization with the Pico seems similar to what I used to do when I added hops in a bag as opposed to directly to the kettle. So lately I've been upping the hops a bit (.25 to .5oz) to compensate (for what seems to me) slightly lower utilization with the mesh cages. (Which is what I used to do when I added hops to the kettle in a bag.) Very unscientific, though. Just my sense.

 

[KCBigDog]

So long as the total grain bill is less than 9#, you're good to go. That might mean 2.5 gallon or 3 gallon recipes -- depending on style and OG/FG goals.

I've scaled to 3 gallons on several batches, and I've scaled to 2.5 gallons. It really depends on your style (and your willingness to experiment). When I've been too lazy to buy grain for a recipe, I've bought several of Northern Brewer's 3-gallon BIAB kits. They fit the Pico perfectly.

The Pico only has a few hard and fast guidelines:

a) Each of the four hop compartments can hold no more than 1.5 oz pellets (each)
b) Total grain can be no more than 9#
c) Starting water amount no more than 3.75 gallons.
d) Post-boil wort volume goal is always 2.5 to 2.75 gallons.

In practice, however, those guidelines are far less limiting than they might sound. Extract can be added to the boil to increase OG -- and the boil can be paused at the end to add more pellet hops. Lots of room for experimentation. I've had good luck with whirlpooling at the end of the boil, and I've been dry-hopping in the fermenting keg and in the serving keg with excellent results.

Lately, I've been scaling recipes (milds & stouts & porters) to half the normal (5 or 5.5 gallon) batches to make grain purchases easier. In other words, if a 5 gallon recipe calls for 7# of 2-row, I just cut it in half -- 3.5# -- for the Pico. Hop utilization with the Pico seems similar to what I used to do when I added hops in a bag as opposed to directly to the kettle. So lately I've been upping the hops a bit (.25 to .5oz) to compensate (for what seems to me) slightly lower utilization with the mesh cages. (Which is what I used to do when I added hops to the kettle in a bag.) Very unscientific, though. Just my sense.

Thanks for the quick reply. The thing I can't figure out is water amounts. Or do I not worry about it?

I use Beersmith to formulate recipes. How do you calculate the amount of water to start with? I like your half rule, that makes recipes easy. But water amount?

 

[bobbytuck]

th to formulate recipes. How do you calculate the amount of water to start with? I like your half rule, that makes recipes easy. But water amount?

The Pico comes with two pre-programmed mash cycles -- a simple ramp-up and a protein rest/mash/mash-out (what Pico calls a high-efficiency mash -- based on, I assume, the George Fix 40/60/70C steps). You can do any kind of step-mash -- but the two cycles are easy to select when you're programming a recipe.

When I do the high-efficiency mash, I use less water -- 3.33 gals or so. When I do the simple mash, I use around 3.5-3.6 gallons. The Pico has an online recipe crafter that calculates the water amounts based on your selected mash (along with the water weight -- given that a gallon of water weight 8.33#). Water amounts are based on 2.5 gallons post-boil.

Anyway, I've been going by the above amounts -- 3.3 and 3.5/3.6 -- and I nearly always hit my OG targets (again, calculated via the online recipe crafter). I bought a scale to measure out the water exactly, but I used the scale a couple times and realized all I need is a gallon water jug -- and I can measure my starting water good enough.

BTW -- I used BeerSmith for years, but then I realized the Pico online recipe crafter is pretty nice -- and it records everything (recipes, sessions, notes) -- so I've essentially stopped using BeerSmith for good. I've only used it occasionally to scale down some old 10 gallon recipes to 2.5 gallons.

EDIT: When I say "pre-programmed" mash cycles -- I mean that while they're programmed in, you can change any variable -- including adding any number of steps/temperatures. The pre-programming makes things easier because you're not telling the Pico to heat, drain, step up, re-circulate, etc. But all those variables are tweakable via the web interface (and will then be sync'd to the machine when you turn it on). That's actually the downside to the Pico: you have to watch your programming if you decide to manually enter mash/boil/hop steps. It's easy to miss something and then find that you forgot the whirlpool or that you missed one of the hop cages. The pre-programming is really nice, in other words. It makes sure you don't screw up or miss an essential step. Whirlpooling is always a manual step -- but it's easy enough to do.

 

[KCBigDog]

Thanks guys!

Last question (maybe): Wheb adding sugar, where do you add? In the keg with the brewing water? In the grain?

 

[bobbytuck]

Thanks guys!

Last question (maybe): Wheb adding sugar, where do you add? In the keg with the brewing water? In the grain?

If I'm adding a pound or so of sugar to an IPA, I thin the sugar on the stove with a tiny bit of water and -- thanks to a mini funnel I got on Amazon -- pour it right into the boil keg through the hole in the silicon keg stopper.

The keg during brewing and fermentation has a silicon stopper with a tiny hole -- the plastic foam trap goes there during the brew, and when the brew it done, you can add a fermentation lock in the same hole. The stopper stays on during the mash, boil, and fermentation. I avoid removing the silicon stopper during the boil because while it's easy to get off, it's very hard to get back on when steam is coming out of the keg. You risk pushing it through and into the boiling wort, which would not be cool at all.

So I just take off the foam trap, insert a funnel, and pour the sugar right in. No issues.

Even with dark candi sugar like D180, I just heat it a bit to thin it out (no water -- just heat) and then pour it right in during the boil. No mess.

(And when it's time to rack to the serving keg after fermentation, I just remove the stopper from the fermenting keg, put a regular keg lock top on, hook the gas post to CO2 @ 3psi or so, hook the beer out post to the serving keg via ball locks and tubing -- and transfer the beer over. Super slick. Love it. It's a great, contained system.)

The only real issue I've run into -- and I thought it was a serious one but it turned out to be my fault -- is that you have to be super careful not to get any grain or rice hulls *outside* of the mash compartment. I was in a hurry and dumped the grain in the step filter but didn't adequately wipe the little bits off the plastic edges of the filter. 15 minutes later, my Pico started emitting all kinds of beeps and shut down with an Error #3 message.

I ended up having to call them up (they were there on a Saturday), and Kevin, the Pico tech, walked me through testing the pumps. Issue was that the grain bits -- rice hulls, maybe -- had clogged the ball valves attached to the keg. I disassembled the valves, cleaned out the bits, and then ran a bunch of cleaning cycles. All was fine.

Since then, I use a spoon to weight down the top mash screen and then put the plexiglass shield on top so that the spoon is forced to press down on the mash screen and hold it tight. This seems to work fine -- no issues since. I also saw a recommendation in the forums to use only a single, tiny handful of rice hulls. I'd been using a couple -- which was probably too much. I don't even think the hulls are necessary -- they're just a habit from my HERMS days and stuck mashes. I've had what appear to be slow mashes with the Pico but never a stuck mash in 25+ batches.

EDIT: The only thing extra I've added to the grain -- as opposed to the boil -- is a couple cans of pumpkin puree when I made a pumpkin beer last week. I realize there's always the dilemma of adding the pumpkin to the mash or boil -- or both -- but I went ahead and just poured half the grain in the filter, added the puree from the cans, and then poured the rest of the grain on top of that. I wasn't sure what would happen -- if the puree was gum things up or if the mash would stick -- but it was fine. No issues. The end of mash wort had a very slight pumpkin taste and maybe got a point or two more of sugar. (I ended up added tiny pinches of cinnamon/ginger/allspice to the last hop container -- along with my whirlfloc and yeast food -- so I assume that's where most of the so-called "pumpkin" flavor will come from. But the stuff in the mash worked fine.)

 

[KCBigDog]

Just ordered a stainless mini funnel.

 

[bobbytuck]

One other thing I'm realizing is that the dishwasher tabs don't do a proper cleaning. I've been using either a dishwasher tab or Pico's own clean tablets -- and I assumed they were good enough (and had some sort of PBW as part of the tab) -- but that's not the case -- at all.

My temperatures have had some weird swings lately, so I emailed Pico and they indicated that it's best to clean with PBW every few brews (in addition to the regular 5-brew cleaning with a dishwasher tab and the every-brew rinse.) I should have known this anyway, but, as I say, I just assumed the tablet was doing its thing. It wasn't.

I ran a batch of homemade PBW (66% OxyClean free/33% TSP) -- and I was amazed -- amazed -- at the gunk that came spewing out. At the end of the cleaning cycle, I literally had a pile of grain bits and crud on my step filter -- an actual little pile.

Anyway, lesson learned. My plan now is to run another PBW clean, rinse 2 or 3 times, and then run the PBW clean after every other brew (rinse twice after each brew). My fear is that the Pico innards might be a bit difficult to clean -- or, to put another way, can't adequately get cleaned with even a PBW wash -- so I suspect I'll be very meticulous about this. Brews are turning out fine -- except for the last batch which had (apparently) a couple of flash boils which sent the delta between the temp monitors to more than 20 degrees. The boil ended up being truncated at 40-45 mins. Very short boil -- so I hope the beer turns out. It was a low grav, dark wheat beer -- so I'm hoping everything will be fine. Weird.

Gonna try a post-PBW batch in a few days. Hopefully things are back to normal.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I've been cleaning every 3 batches even though the instructions say 4 or 5 depending on which set you read. Next time I plan on using homemade pbw because I haven't been super happy with the dishwasher tab method either. It is a bit unnerving how much gunk comes out. I wish there was something in between the 1 hour deep clean and the 2 minute rinse. Might make a custom recipe.

One thing I've learned to check when temp fluctuation are strong is the inline filter - I'm going to start double bagging my keg hop additions to help prevent them escaping, but I to hope that a pause function makes it into the next update.

 

[DemonsRun]

I addition to the 2 min Rinse, there is the Circulate option, I use this to transfer to a Speidel fermenter or to run 5 Gallons of PBW through the machine.

under the help menu on your machine, select "Circulate"

 

[bobbytuck]

I addition to the 2 min Rinse, there is the Circulate option, I use this to transfer to a Speidel fermenter ...

Forgot about this. Thanks.

When you circulate to another vessel like a fermenter -- do you use the Pico's gray (gas in) hose/valve for the output?

In other words, the Pico takes the beer via the beer out -- and then you use another hose on the gray gas valve (or attach the ball lock to another vessel)?

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Anyone have any recent experience on how long the wait is for delivery?

 

[KirkMN]

Anyone have any recent experience on how long the wait is for delivery?

I ordered mine a week ago on Friday night from AIH, it was shipped (from Seattle) on Tuesday, and I expect it on Monday (in MN). Pretty quick.

 

[severum]

Ordered mine on the 30th. Didn't ship till Thursday the 11th. Expected arrival on Tuesday.

Severum

 

[DemonsRun]

Forgot about this. Thanks.

When you circulate to another vessel like a fermenter -- do you use the Pico's gray (gas in) hose/valve for the output?

In other words, the Pico takes the beer via the beer out -- and then you use another hose on the gray gas valve (or attach the ball lock to another vessel)?

Yes grey is out, I use the tubes they sent with the original order, click it into the grey to transferr w/ black hooked up to the keg.

To run circulate as an extended rinsei let my tap water get ax hot as possible, mix in PBW black w/ tube in the PBW, and grey into an empty bucket.

 

[KCBigDog]

My Pico arrives on Monday. Very excited!!

I have ingredients for 7 batches. Planning to ferment in my traditional carboys.

The posts above about transferring are great. Need to figure out how to do that instead of using a siphon.

 

[FlyDoctor]

All great info - better than what's on the PB forum!

If your using PBW in place of the dishwasher tab - do you just put the powder into the step filter?

Also - I need more kegs/seals to get more of a workflow going with more than one beer fermenting. Does everyone just cut the dip-tube on another keg (and order another seal) to run several at once? I always could run off into a carboy as has been said...

 

[bobbytuck]

I put the PBW in the keg -- 2 gallons of super hot water, dissolved PBW (or homemade PBW) -- and then start the cleaning cycle. I'm not sure what I'll do with the Pico cleaning tabs -- but I'll probably use those every five batches (as suggested). But my plan is to definitely circulate and drain PBW after each brew from here on out via the 'Help' menu.

It's interesting -- over the past three days I've run 3 cleaning cycles with PBW. Lots and lots of crud has exited my machine. I brewed today, and I see that the temp deltas (between the wort temp and the heat loop temp) are less than a week ago anywhere from 5-8 degrees during the mash and boil. So the PBW cleaning has definitely had a positive effect. I wish I'd know this from the get-go -- but I'm glad I was able to take care of it. Fingers crossed. Lesson is to definitely watch the graphs. If the deltas look like they're increasing, then it's probably wort/crud build up on the internals and time for deep cleaning.

Planning to do two more brews over the next two days -- a wheat beer with orange peel and coriander and a Rye IPA with a bunch of Citra.

re: Kegs and dip tubes.

I've ordered a ****-ton of 5 gallon kegs (from Pico) and 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs from Adventures in Homebrewing. For the few five gallon kegs I didn't get from Pico, I ordered several silicon keg sealers -- but then I realized I didn't need a silicon sealer for every single fermenting keg.

I realized I could use a gas ball lock with several feet of tubing into a Star San growler instead of regular silicon keg seals (which are weirdly expensive) and the plastic ferm airlocks. I can just use the regular keg locks, lock it down and seal it, and then put a grey gas ball lock on the gas out post, and then simply run tubing from that to a growler of star san. This works fine -- and saves money on the 20 dollar silicon seals. I use the seals for the brew, but then I remove it, put on the normal keg top lock, and use the gas out/tubing for fermentation.

I cut the dip tubes on the 5 gallon kegs I purchased elsewhere with a mini pipe cutter from Amazon. 12 bucks or so -- takes about 2 minutes to cut -- just spinning and tightening it until 1/2" of the dip tube is cut. I believe the Pico kegs have their dip tubes already cut.

I've noticed, though, that everytime I rack to a mini keg for serving, I still get yeast during racking -- but with biofine and a 48 hour cold crash, the beer always clears pretty quickly.

 

[azimmer1]

One other thing I'm realizing is that the dishwasher tabs don't do a proper cleaning. I've been using either a dishwasher tab or Pico's own clean tablets -- and I assumed they were good enough (and had some sort of PBW as part of the tab) -- but that's not the case -- at all.

My temperatures have had some weird swings lately, so I emailed Pico and they indicated that it's best to clean with PBW every few brews (in addition to the regular 5-brew cleaning with a dishwasher tab and the every-brew rinse.) I should have known this anyway, but, as I say, I just assumed the tablet was doing its thing. It wasn't.

I ran a batch of homemade PBW (66% OxyClean free/33% TSP) -- and I was amazed -- amazed -- at the gunk that came spewing out. At the end of the cleaning cycle, I literally had a pile of grain bits and crud on my step filter -- an actual little pile.

Anyway, lesson learned. My plan now is to run another PBW clean, rinse 2 or 3 times, and then run the PBW clean after every other brew (rinse twice after each brew). My fear is that the Pico innards might be a bit difficult to clean -- or, to put another way, can't adequately get cleaned with even a PBW wash -- so I suspect I'll be very meticulous about this. Brews are turning out fine -- except for the last batch which had (apparently) a couple of flash boils which sent the delta between the temp monitors to more than 20 degrees. The boil ended up being truncated at 40-45 mins. Very short boil -- so I hope the beer turns out. It was a low grav, dark wheat beer -- so I'm hoping everything will be fine. Weird.

Gonna try a post-PBW batch in a few days. Hopefully things are back to normal.

When you use pbw, how much to you use?
Also, when you do, do you use the step filter without the screens or do you put the screens in?

 

[bobbytuck]

When you use pbw, how much to you use?
Also, when you do, do you use the step filter without the screens or do you put the screens in?

Dissolve about .25 scoop Oxy/a tiny bit of TSP in two gallons of super hot water from the tap.

The ratio goal is 2 parts Oxy to 1 part TSP (if you're making your own PBW) -- otherwise a couple tablespoons of regular PBW.

Yes, I put everything in -- step filter, screens, hop cages. I've been running the full cleaning cycle, but as pointed out above, I probably only need to run the circulate cycle for 30 mins or so (maybe less?) -- and then the five minute drain.

A few days ago I soaked the screens and hop cages in a sink full of water with a bit of Oxyclean in it for an hour (no TSP). Hadn't done that before. I've been avoiding the dishwasher -- and dishwasher tabs -- because I know they're super harsh but I know other folks use the dishwasher to clean everything after every five or so brews without any issues.

Links to homemade PBW:

https://tapsclub.wordpress.com/technical-topics/homemade-powdered-brewers-wash/

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/11/super-charge-your-oxiclean.html

 

[FlyDoctor]

Doesn't the cleaning cycle heat the detergent? The circulate routine would lack this piece...not sure it matters

 

[bobbytuck]

Doesn't the cleaning cycle heat the detergent? The circulate routine would lack this piece...not sure it matters

Yes -- the full cleaning is essentially a brew from start to finish, including heating. The rinse (and AFAIK) the circulate do no heating. I think the rinse used to heat, but the version now -- v3 -- doesn't. The 'help' menu circulate cycle shows the temp readings, so that's actually interesting -- I didn't realize that. I wish the drain cycle had a visual countdown (or countup) -- but it just indicates that it'll run for 5 minutes, which is fine to get out all the residual water.

I've got a downstairs utility sink that's literally 10 feet away from my hot water heater, so I'm able to usually pull super hot (130-140F) water. For me, that's fine for rinsing/circulating. PBW dissolves fine, no issues.

 

[azimmer1]

Yes -- the full cleaning is essentially a brew from start to finish, including heating. The rinse (and AFAIK) the circulate do no heating. I think the rinse used to heat, but the version now -- v3 -- doesn't. The 'help' menu circulate cycle shows the temp readings, so that's actually interesting -- I didn't realize that. I wish the drain cycle had a visual countdown (or countup) -- but it just indicates that it'll run for 5 minutes, which is fine to get out all the residual water.

I've got a downstairs utility sink that's literally 10 feet away from my hot water heater, so I'm able to usually pull super hot (130-140F) water. For me, that's fine for rinsing/circulating. PBW dissolves fine, no issues.

My machine is still on order, but I am curious. What is the difference between the circulate and rinse cycles?

 

[bobbytuck]

My machine is still on order, but I am curious. What is the difference between the circulate and rinse cycles?

The circulate cycle is under the 'Help' menu -- it just takes whatever is in the keg and recircs through the system. It'll recirculate as long as you want (no heat) -- and displays the wort temp (keg liquid) and the heat loop temp. There's also a drain cycle under 'Help' that drains whatever water is in the system. It's a five minute drain, which is good enough to get most all the water out.

The Rinse cycle is under 'Cleaning' and is specifically timed to do a 2-minute recirculation (no heat) and a 5 minute drain.

The 'Cleaning' cycle (again under 'Cleaning') does pretty much a full brew -- it heats water, drains into the step filter, then drains into each hop compartment. Takes about 2-2.5 hours give or take.

Lots of options.

 

[FlyDoctor]

When folks just do a "no-chill" style cooling, do you just end brew session when the machine pauses after the boil?

Yesterday I just selected end brew, and I ran an additional drain program to be sure everything was out. I then removed the rubber lid, and put on a standard corny lid and set it in the basement overnight.

 

[bobbytuck]

When folks just do a "no-chill" style cooling, do you just end brew session when the machine pauses after the boil?

.

I usually recirculate and cool with water from my sink using a half filled Home Depot 5 gallon red bucket. I do two or three water changes -- maybe 20 minutes total -- and I can get the wort down to 95F. Ends up being maybe 7-8 gallons of water total.

Once it's 95-98F, I drain it, take out the foam trap, remove ball locks, replace foam trap with a plastic airlock in silicon seal, cover the airlock with Star San'd foil, and then let it sit in cool basement (64F ambient) until next morning. Then I pitch the yeast, fill the airlock with vodka, and I'm done with the brew for two weeks.

My method is a modified no-chill, I guess. I chill -- but only from cold water from sink -- and no longer than 20mins (after that there's too much foam). So long as I can get it down to less than 100F, I figure it's good enough to sit and cool the rest of the way on its own overnight.

Never had an issue with this method -- no off-flavors at all. I keep the rubber lid on the whole time -- but after I'm done cooling, I swap the plastic foam trap thingie with a ferm trap and sanitized foil.

 

[FlyDoctor]

Also I wanted to brew before the fermentation was finished to my liking on my first brew (6 days). But, I figured it was pretty close - so I jumped the brew from my "brew keg" to a second holding keg using the jumper system and CO2 to push it. My plan is to let it continue to finish over the next 2 weeks in that keg, and then I'll jump it to a 2.5G keg for serving. Pretty slick.

I usually don't do "secondary" so this will be a new thing for me. I was a little concerned about transferring early - but I wasn't too careful with the racking - hoping that a fair amount of yeast would transfer over as well to make sure it finishes in the second keg.

Interestingly, the yeast cake in the primary seemed compacted by the CO2 pressure?

 

[FlyDoctor]

I see - so it's a hybrid method.

I used to no-chill using a cube - helpful in the winter when I didn't really want to run a ton of water out onto my driveway in the MN freeze. I like the method in general. I figure in this instance I'm just subbing the keg for the cube. There will be a big vacuum in the keg today I'm sure - but no more so than with the cube.

I chilled last week in my sink (right next to the zymatic) and 20# ice. Was below 90 by 30 mins - but I was circulating the ice bath around the keg the whole time. I think the height of the ice bath wasn't ideal (? 1/4 keg height) - and that probably limited the exchange to some degree. I went to 35 mins and had zero foam.

 

[bobbytuck]

I see - so it's a hybrid method.

I chilled last week in my sink (right next to the zymatic) and 20# ice. Was below 90 by 30 mins - but I was circulating the ice bath around the keg the whole time. I think the height of the ice bath wasn't ideal (? 1/4 keg height) - and that probably limited the exchange to some degree. I went to 35 mins and had zero foam.

I used 20# ice bags for my first several batches. They worked great -- I was able to get down to 65F in 30 mins or less. The foaming was dicey for the first several brews, but then I started adding my salts (CaCl and gypsum) to the boil (as opposed to my mash) because someone said that would cut down on the foaming. It did -- and I detected no difference in the taste.

The mash pH was slightly higher due to the absence of the salts -- but I compensated with an ounce or so more of acid malt. (I usually add 3-4oz of acid malt, 1 to 1.5g gypsum, and a similar amount of CaCl to each brew to work with my Lake Michigan water.) I routinely get a mash pH at room temp of anywhere between 5.3 to 5.6 -- so everything seemed to work. Brews tasted fine.

Anyway, I stopped with the ice chilling because I was brewing a lot and getting tired of running down to the Shell Station for ice. I'll use the ice if it's convenient, I just haven't bothered when I realized the no-chill worked fine and was a lot less hassle.

 

[FlyDoctor]

Sorry for the stupid question - but what's the difference between adding salts at the start (mash) compared with in he boil? Do you mean you really add salts only once the boil is going? Since the salts will be there in either case during the chilling period - I don't see how it would make a difference. But there it is.

 

[bobbytuck]

Everything I've learned about water (which is always in flux due to the complexity and my own laziness), I've learned here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=128

And the Bru'nwater spreadsheet. And Palmer's book on water. (And a pH meter).

When I had my HERMS, I split the salts -- half in the boil, half in the mash. The idea of mash salts is that they will help adjust the pH -- usually lower it (very slightly). Because the Pico is only dealing with 3 gallons of water, the salts I add now are very, very minimal in terms of total weight.

Adding the boil works fine, too -- but you won't see the pH adjustment necessary for the mash. That's why I add a bit more acid malt. Again, the volume is small here -- so with acid malt especially, I realize I have to be very careful with the weight. 4oz is what I add for beers without a lot of roasted malt -- but I use the Bru'nwater spreadsheet for each brew. Generally, I'm always adding between 3-4 oz acid malt to the mash -- and then adding all the salts in mash, or all in boil.

My goal is always 5.5 to 5.6 pH for darker beers, 5.3 to 5.4 for lighter. I've been as low as 5.2 in the mash at room temp -- and the beer tastes fine. The mash efficiency and hop utilization may have been slightly compromised by the low pH -- but, honestly, it tasted fine to me. (And I know the Pico's mash efficiency is pretty low anyway.)

Since I'm not worried much about cooling foam, I've gone back to adding all salts in mash with acid malt. If I was ice-bath cooling, I'd probably add salts to the boil to (in theory) cut down on the foaming. It did seem to work -- less foam with salts added to boil -- but I only tried it a couple times, so I'm not 100%.

EDIT: My own impression -- and I might be totally wrong about this -- is that it's better to err on a lower pH than a higher. When I was first working with water adjustments and water reports, I had mashes as high as 5.7 and 5.8. These tended -- anecdotal experience only -- to result in crappy beers. That's why I'd rather have a 5.25 pH with compromised hop utilization than a 5.7 pH with bland, muddy, indistinct flavor. But I'm lazy. So I add my acid malts, salts, and pretty much know I'll be in the range -- even if (despite Bru'nwater's spreadsheet estimate) the exact pH varies a bit. Some say lower pH could result in sour beers -- but I've never noticed this. If "sour" means "sharper" -- maybe. I might be inclined to believe this -- and that's probably why roasty beers like stouts or Irish reds need a slightly higher pH -- so as not to be overly sharp and "f'ing roasted". My guess -- I might be wrong here.

Plus the roasty malts tend to act as buffer anyway -- and drive the pH down to a specific level -- so less acid malt is needed. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[FlyDoctor]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I know about salts and the impact on mash pH, but I didn't quite understand why adding them at one time v. another prior to the chilling phase would make any difference in foam.

While I do always build my water up from RO now (using the Brewer's Friend water calc), I have yet to venture into pH measurement.

I do have to say - about water adjustments...I wonder if we overdo them. I picked up a copy of the new Gordon Strong book - and his water adjustments are startlingly y simple (often just phosphoric acid for pH, and then one-two salts, often just gypsum). Clearly his beers turn out well (so I hear). Yesterday I added 4 salts to my PB water prior to the mash (gypsum, CaCl2, MgSO4, NaCl) using my crack scale to weigh out salts to the 100th of a gram. I really want to standardize my brewing water to make things simpler - say having 2-3 general water styles with grams per gallon measurements worked out ahead of time so I don't need to much around with Brewer's friend every time.

Thank you

 

[bobbytuck]

Interesting. Which Gordon Strong book has his water recommendations?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1938469143/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

or

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1452105510/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[FlyDoctor]

Interesting. Which Gordon Strong book has his water recommendations?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1938469143/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

or

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1452105510/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Its the new one - Modern Homebrew recipes - it list his water treatment for each of over 100 recipes. Of course, he brews on a three tier system.

 

[alirees]

I've got mine and brewed the pico ale. Didn't carbonate it though as i didnt want to wait to have a try. Was OK but nothing special to be honest.

Next up is the Amarillo pale but I'm using Maris Otter and Ahtanum hops instead so will report how it goes.

Ps has anyone had issues during cooling with frothing out the keg? I had that on my first brew losing 2-3 pints!

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Massive multi-quote here. I've been flat out at work but its awesome that there is this much chatter going on about the Picobrew!

I think the only thing I need to get around to doing is dry hopping my mosaic SMaSH and decide of that delayed start brew is ruined. And find time to brew!

I addition to the 2 min Rinse, there is the Circulate option, I use this to transfer to a Speidel fermenter or to run 5 Gallons of PBW through the machine.

under the help menu on your machine, select "Circulate"

I hadn't seen this. Probably didn't read the instruction manual well enough - thanks! I'll start using this for a longer rinse AND if my chills keep getting messed up - does it also display temperature. That would have saved me the hassle of forming a faux recipe that time that my chill got all messed up and I didn't have the ability to pause!

My method is a modified no-chill, I guess. I chill -- but only from cold water from sink -- and no longer than 20mins (after that there's too much foam). So long as I can get it down to less than 100F, I figure it's good enough to sit and cool the rest of the way on its own overnight.

Never had an issue with this method -- no off-flavors at all. I keep the rubber lid on the whole time -- but after I'm done cooling, I swap the plastic foam trap thingie with a ferm trap and sanitized foil.

I like that method - its what I've used when my plate chiller has faield on me a few times.

Also I wanted to brew before the fermentation was finished to my liking on my first brew (6 days). But, I figured it was pretty close - so I jumped the brew from my "brew keg" to a second holding keg using the jumper system and CO2 to push it. My plan is to let it continue to finish over the next 2 weeks in that keg, and then I'll jump it to a 2.5G keg for serving. Pretty slick.

I usually don't do "secondary" so this will be a new thing for me. I was a little concerned about transferring early - but I wasn't too careful with the racking - hoping that a fair amount of yeast would transfer over as well to make sure it finishes in the second keg.

Interestingly, the yeast cake in the primary seemed compacted by the CO2 pressure?

If you have temperature control try raising it a bit to encourage the yeast - you're plenty far along that you won't get esters. Remember, like BobbyTuck said, if you're using the Picobrew keg (or you modified one of your own) the dip tube is shortened by 1/2" to avoid the trub - I'm sure there was plenty of yeast left in suspension that got moved to finish it off for you. It also make yeast capturing a breeze - I've started filling a sanitized 8oz jar with the beginning of my transfer to reuse.

Also, if you're worried about oxygenation during a transfer like that, pressurize and purge the receiving keg a little bit once or twice.

What makes you say compacted? Just that there isn't much left down there? I've noticed a general lack of trub in my batches, but I think that the wort created by the picobrew is pretty finely filtered between the inline filter/hop cages/base filtered. I'd wager that you're probably just seeing more yeast and less trub than you're used to.

I see - so it's a hybrid method.

I used to no-chill using a cube - helpful in the winter when I didn't really want to run a ton of water out onto my driveway in the MN freeze. I like the method in general. I figure in this instance I'm just subbing the keg for the cube. There will be a big vacuum in the keg today I'm sure - but no more so than with the cube.

I chilled last week in my sink (right next to the zymatic) and 20# ice. Was below 90 by 30 mins - but I was circulating the ice bath around the keg the whole time. I think the height of the ice bath wasn't ideal (? 1/4 keg height) - and that probably limited the exchange to some degree. I went to 35 mins and had zero foam.

In the winter I'll probably switch to what I should have done this February/March when I got the thing (I stuck it in a snowbank - not super efficient): I plan on putting some water in a bucket, and then keep topping it off with snow to keep making ice water. In the sink more likely than that to minimize mess from overflow.

I would guess the water height probably wasn't ideal. Heat rises AND the keg pulls from the bottom - I bet the the draining from the CO2 input doesn't incur significant mixing (but good oxygenation). Sure, thermodynamics and it all evens out, but the chillers have the greatest affect with a higher temperature delta. If you try a homer bucket (or clean trash can?) next time, don't mix the bucket water for a few minutes then stick your hand in slowly - you'll be able to feel the temperature gradient in the bucket from sitting there, I think its probably worse in the keg.

I've got mine and brewed the pico ale. Didn't carbonate it though as i didnt want to wait to have a try. Was OK but nothing special to be honest.

Next up is the Amarillo pale but I'm using Maris Otter and Ahtanum hops instead so will report how it goes.

Ps has anyone had issues during cooling with frothing out the keg? I had that on my first brew losing 2-3 pints!

Congrats! I don't think I would have been too stoked with the Pico Pale either, even though I changed the hop additions.

Yes - I've had some foaming issues. If you can avoid it, don't take the keg lid off during chilling, it should prevent a good bit of over foaming!

 

[brewnz]

Thanks for the tips everyone!

I broke my Zymatic cherry yesterday and brewed a custom recipe twice (ie. back to back batches) making a combined 19.1L (5.05G) of 1.073 wort using the High Efficiency Mash (HEM) profile which I further customised via the advance editor (60min mash at 158F for more body) and was surprised that I did not hit the OG of 1.083 which the recipe crafter had me pegged for - .10 SG is a bit of a big deal and when I plugged the stats into beersmith I get around 59% - wow that's low and am glad I didn't use the single infusion mash profile! it must be my crush or something but any how at least I know now.

I have a 50L fermeneter so I'm going to further dilute the wort down to 38L (10.04G) of around 1.037 SG tonight and pitch with 2 packs of S05 - it's going to be interesting as have not diluted since I started with extract!

Any ways, all that aside I enjoyed the rather hands off process and the ease of cleaning and can't wait to brew with it again!

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Thanks for the tips everyone!

I broke my Zymatic cherry yesterday and brewed a custom recipe twice (ie. back to back batches) making a combined 19.1L (5.05G) of 1.073 wort using the High Efficiency Mash (HEM) profile which I further customised via the advance editor (60min mash at 158F for more body) and was surprised that I did not hit the OG of 1.083 which the recipe crafter had me pegged for - .10 SG is a bit of a big deal and when I plugged the stats into beersmith I get around 59% - wow that's low and am glad I didn't use the single infusion mash profile! it must be my crush or something but any how at least I know now.

I have a 50L fermeneter so I'm going to further dilute the wort down to 38L (10.04G) of around 1.037 SG tonight and pitch with 2 packs of S05 - it's going to be interesting as have not diluted since I started with extract!

Any ways, all that aside I enjoyed the rather hands off process and the ease of cleaning and can't wait to brew with it again!

I think you may be onto something regarding your crush.... since we're not doing any mixing/stirring I'd treat this like a BIAB - use a fine crush. Thats what I've been doing, but I've only checked the OG on one of my batches, so I don't know how often its off.