My LHBS Stores grain in Garbage bins, should I be concerned?

[Husher]

I noticed the brew shop close to me stores their high turnover grain in large garbage bins. I'd assume those things were never meant to store food in and aren't food safe. Am I paranoid or would you worry about that too?

Thing is, they're the only shop that sells pre milled grain anywhere here, and the next shop that sells grain is a fair distance from me (like an hour drive). Otherwise I'd just switch shops and not bother asking.

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

Yes you are paranoid. Secondly, a lot of the large trash cans are food safe, and some people actually ferment in them. No issue with grain storage. At All.

 

[chemman14]

When you say they sell pre milled grain, does that mean they have big bins of pre ground grain for you to weigh out? Or you weigh out un milled grain and they will mill it for you?

 

[peterj]

Even if they're not food safe I don't think anything is going to leach out into dry room temperature grain. Especially if they're turning it over pretty quickly. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

 

[Revvy]

Then the BRUTE 35 gallon trash can fermenter that they showed how to make in a 2009 issue of BYO magazine, and that many LHBS including my own sells is REALLY going to make you crap your pants.

To cover all the bases, I suggest using a Rubbermaid Brute container. Yes, technically these are trash cans, and they are not impermeable to gas transfer and therefore not recommended for aging, but they are also rated to NSF/ANSI Standard 2 for food storage and also are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group Listed (ie: they are food grade and safe for brewing) and are very popular in the food service industry.

 

[Husher]

When you say they sell pre milled grain, does that mean they have big bins of pre ground grain for you to weigh out? Or you weigh out un milled grain and they will mill it for you?

They order everything pre milled from their supplier,so you just weigh out what you need and pay the milled weight price. 6 bucks a kilo (2.2 Lbs). Not sure if that's a lot, but 2 oz of Golding cost me 8.50 so I'm looking for alternatives there.

 

[stat]

That seems like almost double the cost of grain and hops around here.

 

[copyright1997]

They order everything pre milled from their supplier,so you just weigh out what you need and pay the milled weight price. 6 bucks a kilo (2.2 Lbs). Not sure if that's a lot, but 2 oz of Golding cost me 8.50 so I'm looking for alternatives there.

Well, you mention grains and then give an example of hops?

I'd be more concerned regarding pre-milled grains if they are not used quickly. Would you say they keep grains more than a month?

 

[Husher]

I'd be more concerned regarding pre-milled grains if they are not used quickly. Would you say they keep grains more than a month?

I have no clue, but I imagine not. Though it's not like I have much choice. Welcome to Canada, where everything cost double. The hobby is fringe here so there's little competition.

 

[jrgtr42]

My theory is that as long as the cans never actually held garbage, and the grains in there are unmilled, you're fine.
(I don't know if I'd take the last bits out of the bottom of the can; who knows how long they were down there)

 

[Calichusetts]

Both aspects of what you said slightly concern me: pre-milled and the use of garbage cans.

There is nothing wrong with either (well, pre-milled needs to move in under a month or so IF stored in ideal conditions) but I'm guessing if they don't want or can't spend the money on a mill or actual "attractive" storage, they may be lacking in other areas as well, especially humidity control.

To me, presentation is often associated with the quality and professionalism of a business. Its not always correct to connect the two. But if I were a business owner, I would want people to feel like they are in a top-notch, best-of-the-best place, because I would hope I would run a best-of-the-best LHBS. There are many approaches to business, I guess that's just mine.

This is my LHBS:

http://www.mybrewmonster.com/

Check out the pics of their grain room. Nicely setup, descriptions/lovibond on each grain. The "box" at the end is a really nice mill, self-contained with a simply one button control. They have every white labs yeast, etc. They literally just opened but it looks really nice, hop plants growing and all. At the same time, I worry. Will their be enough business to sustain their investment? What I am getting at is I wouldn't be happy with garbage container grain storage, but I understand that this business is hard to succeed in.

 

[Husher]

I am officially envious. My place only sells two beer yeasts, Mauri brew and some generic wheat yeast. and only 7 varieties of hops, 7-8 varieties of grain. Plus they don't know anything about what they sell. Maybe 2-Row is a steeping grain, but I don't believe it when they tell me. I google everything.

You'd figure a shop would actually understand the beer making process....They're primary business is making beer for people and delivering 100 bottles in 5-7 days. Which need to be refrigerated since they killed the yeast during bottling. Other than their process, they have no clue.

So wait, they mill it for you right there? Saw that in the pic. My only option is to buy from my guy or get it elsewhere after driving for some time and buy myself a mill.

 

[peterj]

I am officially envious. My place only sells two beer yeasts, Mauri brew and some generic wheat yeast. and only 7 varieties of hops, 7-8 varieties of grain. Plus they don't know anything about what they sell. Maybe 2-Row is a steeping grain, but I don't believe it when they tell me. I google everything.

You'd figure a shop would actually understand the beer making process....They're primary business is making beer for people and delivering 100 bottles in 5-7 days. Which need to be refrigerated since they killed the yeast during bottling. Other than their process, they have no clue.

So wait, they mill it for you right there? Saw that in the pic. My only option is to buy from my guy or get it elsewhere after driving for some time and buy myself a mill.

Yeah that place sounds pretty terrible. I wouldn't go there any more. 2-row is definitely not even close to being a steeping grain. I think it's pretty standard for shops to sell whole grains and either crush them for you or let you use their mill if you don't have one. I think some will charge for milling it, and I thought that was pretty bad. $6 a kilo is about double the price and you're probably getting stale grain that was milled who knows when. Can you order stuff online? I would think even with shipping you could make up the cost if you're buying more than about 2 kilos of grain. Plus the selection would be infinitely better.

 

[Epimetheus]

Welcome to Canada, where everything cost double. The hobby is fringe here so there's little competition.

HTH can Canadian grains cost much? Bulk in the US, they are cheaper than US grains. Like less than 0.50 $US per lb. for Canadian 2-row in 50 lb bags.

 

[Epimetheus]

Welcome to Canada, where everything cost double. The hobby is fringe here so there's little competition.

HTH can Canadian grains cost much? Bulk in the US, they are cheaper than US grains. Like less than 0.50 $US per lb. for Canadian 2-row in 50 lb bags.

I followed some directions for home-roasting 2 row barley to simulate crystal malt and it works well.

 

[peterj]

Your location says Toronto so I just googled homebrew shops in Toronto and came up with these few that look pretty good. I've only been to Toronto once in my life so I have no idea where these are or if they are actually anywhere near you or even if they're actually in Toronto. But I think they all sell online in Canada. And the prices seem pretty normal.

http://torontobrewing.ca/
http://homebrewsupplies.ca/
http://www.hopdawgs.ca/

 

[phug]

Your location says Toronto so I just googled homebrew shops in Toronto and came up with these few that look pretty good. I've only been to Toronto once in my life so I have no idea where these are or if they are actually anywhere near you or even if they're actually in Toronto. But I think they all sell online in Canada. And the prices seem pretty normal.

http://torontobrewing.ca/
http://homebrewsupplies.ca/
http://www.hopdawgs.ca/

I shop at Toronto Brewing, and I think as long as you can get there (5 minute bus ride from downsview subway station) that you'll be in better shape. Their 2 row canadian malt runs about 1.50 per lb, most of their hops are around $2-3/oz, They have more yeast than you can shake a stick at. And while they sell you the grains whole, last time I was there they do have a barley crusher that you can use to mill it in the store.

And yes they do ship.

 

[phug]

note, those prices are not their bulk prices, but are for individual pounds of grain or ounces of hops.

 

[Husher]

They're not local (40 minute drive), but I made a trip there recently and bought a wack of hops (for the next few months) as they're half price of my local shop. The malt extract is more expensive but whatever. And the yeast looked nice but haven't bought anything but the dry Belgian, which I haven't used yet.

I didn't know they'd crush the grain for you! That's great! I'll have to get their stuff going forward, assuming I'm brewing in the near future.

Thing is they're open till 5PM most days, a bit later on others and on Saturday. Basically they're open when I'm unavailable. But on exceptions I'll make the trip and stock up.

 

[phug]

They won't technically crush your grain, but they have a self serve crusher. That being said it looks like they've been doing some changes online recently that might reflect some in store changes. Not sure


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[ncbrewer]

You can get a Corona style mill for $25 - $30, although the quality might not be the best. I had to drill out and shim the shaft and rotating plate on mine to get it aligned. But then you can buy base malt by the sack, and you'll have control over the crush.

 

[troy2000]

Something's wrong with this picture.

Why would any LHBS 'order grains pre-crushed from their supplier,' instead of ordering whole grains and crushing them as people buy them - thereby making staleness almost a non-issue? WTF? They can't afford a Barley Crusher???

Personally, I never buy my grains crushed anyway. Partly that's because I like my own crush better than what I've gotten from even my favorite LHBS, and partly because I brew in the desert, and figure whole grains survive high temp's a lot better than crushed ones do if I don't use them immediately.

 

[troy2000]

You can get a Corona style mill for $25 - $30, although the quality might not be the best. I had to drill out and shim the shaft and rotating plate on mine to get it aligned. But then you can buy base malt by the sack, and you'll have control over the crush.

Corona-type mills aren't necessarily for folks who want things to work perfectly out of the box, and have no DIY skills; I had to fight mine for a while to get it right. But now it turns out what I'd call a perfect crush - especially if I condition the grain first with a squirt bottle of water. That makes the hulls come out in one piece instead of shredded, and I don't bother with rice hulls even when I have a heavy load of wheat in my grain bill.

 

[Husher]

I got DIY skills I jsut don't want to need to use them. Any where could I find a mill for 25 bucks?

60 here, probably add 15 bucks for shipping (shipping is expensive here too);
http://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/product_p/cereal-mill.htm

Or this one for 65 plus shipping;
http://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/victoria-grain-mill-corona-style-made-in-italy.html

Though Milling on site is something I'm more than happy to do. However does TorontoHomBrewing sell by the Pound or gram? And do they have a scale? What if I only need half a pound for the current recipe? Thanks much.

 

[troy2000]

I got DIY skills I jsut don't want to need to use them. Any where could I find a mill for 25 bucks?

60 here, probably add 15 bucks for shipping (shipping is expensive here too);
http://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/product_p/cereal-mill.htm

Or this one for 65 plus shipping;
http://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/victoria-grain-mill-corona-style-made-in-italy.html

Though Milling on site is something I'm more than happy to do. However does TorontoHomBrewing sell by the Pound or gram? And do they have a scale? What if I only need half a pound for the current recipe? Thanks much.

I've never ordered grains online from my usual LHBS (Murrieta Homebrew Emporium), so I'm not sure what his policy is. But I'm wiling to bet it's the same as his in-store policy: you pay for what you buy, to the nearest ounce or gram.

On the other hand, the one and only time I purchased online the seller only accepted orders by the pound. Which sucks if you need 1/4 lb of a specialty malt, unless you plan on brewing the same recipe three more times....

add: that same online supplier told me their standard shipping meant my order would arrive by Friday, so I didn't need to pay for expedited shipping. It arrived the next Wednesday instead, and put a serious kink in my supply pipeline. I work insane hours, and don't have that many scheduled days off when I can brew...

 

[mariojr]

I just find it odd that a LHBS cannot front the money for a mill and a scale so you can mill yourself?

Weird.

 

[phug]

I got DIY skills I jsut don't want to need to use them. Any where could I find a mill for 25 bucks?

60 here, probably add 15 bucks for shipping (shipping is expensive here too);
http://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/product_p/cereal-mill.htm

Or this one for 65 plus shipping;
http://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/victoria-grain-mill-corona-style-made-in-italy.html

Though Milling on site is something I'm more than happy to do. However does TorontoHomBrewing sell by the Pound or gram? And do they have a scale? What if I only need half a pound for the current recipe? Thanks much.

The smallest amount the sell is in one pound bags. I ground up my lb of specialty grain bagged it by itself, then weighed out what I needed at home and sealed the rest and tossed it in the freezer


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[troy2000]

I got DIY skills I jsut don't want to need to use them. Any where could I find a mill for 25 bucks?

60 here, probably add 15 bucks for shipping (shipping is expensive here too);
http://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/product_p/cereal-mill.htm

Or this one for 65 plus shipping;
http://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/victoria-grain-mill-corona-style-made-in-italy.html

Though Milling on site is something I'm more than happy to do. However does TorontoHomBrewing sell by the Pound or gram? And do they have a scale? What if I only need half a pound for the current recipe? Thanks much.

Go to Amazon or Ebay, and look for corn mills. The prices are all over the map, but if you should be able to find one cheap... people call them Corona mills, because most of them are Chinese knock-offs of that brand. There are threads here where people show how they've set them up, and talk about fine-tuning them.

add: I clicked on your links. Yep, that's the type of mill we're talking about, but you can do better on the prices. I got mine through Amazon last year for $24.99 with free shipping, if I remember right.

Of course, I suppose one made in Italy might be better quality.

 

[ncbrewer]

I got DIY skills I jsut don't want to need to use them. Any where could I find a mill for 25 bucks?QUOTE]

Try this link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000U5NZ4I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[copyright1997]

Something's wrong with this picture.

Why would any LHBS 'order grains pre-crushed from their supplier,' instead of ordering whole grains and crushing them as people buy them - thereby making staleness almost a non-issue? WTF? They can't afford a Barley Crusher???

Personally, I never buy my grains crushed anyway. Partly that's because I like my own crush better than what I've gotten from even my favorite LHBS, and partly because I brew in the desert, and figure whole grains survive high temp's a lot better than crushed ones do if I don't use them immediately.

Interestingly enough, I know small breweries that don't crush their grain but rather order it pre-crushed. [I know this isn't what you are saying, just trying to provide a complete picture of the options for those who might not know.] They do so because they don't want the "hassle" of crushing a BUNCH of grain, and because they use the grain quickly after it is delivered.

Myself, I invested early in
a) A Barley crusher which I motorized, and
b) Buying grains by the sack and keeping them in sealed airtight containers prior to use. For grains I will frequently use, I keep them in food grade containers with gamma seal lids. For grains that I need to keep over an extended time, I either seal them (for specialty grains) in 1 or 2# increments, or use mylar with oxygen absorbers for even longer term storage, especially for larger amounts (I typically break up sacks into a couple 5 or 6 gallon buckets with the contents sealed in mylar.)

With bulk buys of grain and hops and washing yeast my typical 5 gallon batch of a decent IPA recipe is under $20.

To the op: Given that Canadian Malting's http://canadamalting.com/our-locations2-row is sold in the USA in the $35 or so range (and I have a BUNCH in my house), it's hard to believe there isn't someplace in Canada where you can order it for a reasonable price.

ETA: OP, just found this in a google search, perhaps it will help you: http://www.bulten.ca/homebrewing/suppliers-in-canada

 

[troy2000]

Interestingly enough, I know small breweries that don't crush their grain but rather order it pre-crushed. [I know this isn't what you are saying, just trying to provide a complete picture of the options for those who might not know.] They do so because they don't want the "hassle" of crushing a BUNCH of grain, and because they use the grain quickly after it is delivered.

Myself, I invested early in
a) A Barley crusher which I motorized, and
b) Buying grains by the sack and keeping them in sealed airtight containers prior to use. For grains I will frequently use, I keep them in food grade containers with gamma seal lids. For grains that I need to keep over an extended time, I either seal them (for specialty grains) in 1 or 2# increments, or use mylar with oxygen absorbers for even longer term storage, especially for larger amounts (I typically break up sacks into a couple 5 or 6 gallon buckets with the contents sealed in mylar.)

With bulk buys of grain and hops and washing yeast my typical 5 gallon batch of a decent IPA recipe is under $20.

To the op: Given that Canadian Malting's http://canadamalting.com/our-locations2-row is sold in the USA in the $35 or so range (and I have a BUNCH in my house), it's hard to believe there isn't someplace in Canada where you can order it for a reasonable price.

ETA: OP, just found this in a google search, perhaps it will help you: http://www.bulten.ca/homebrewing/suppliers-in-canada

I didn't know small breweries do that, but it makes sense - for them. I would imagine their grain gets crushed to order and sent to them fresh, and they only order what they need as they need it.

For homebrewers, what you do yourself sounds like a better way to go.

 

[Chrisl77]

I think the other problem with pre crushed grains stored in a big bin and small amounts removed at a time is consistency. The husks and flour doesn't stay perfectly mixed when you crush it and when you agitate it by taking scopes out a little at a time the husks and flour will separate more causing some people to get more husk and others to get more flour. It could be possible at some point that most of the flour will work its way to the bottom of the bin.

 

[Husher]

HTH can Canadian grains cost much? Bulk in the US, they are cheaper than US grains.

Guess what! our dairy is the same way! Canadian milk is cheaper in the states than it is in Canada! Yay, price fixing...

 

[Husher]

Oh and don't get me started on the canadian made cars shipped to the states which cost 50% less.....

 

[dyqik]

I think the other problem with pre crushed grains stored in a big bin and small amounts removed at a time is consistency. The husks and flour doesn't stay perfectly mixed when you crush it and when you agitate it by taking scopes out a little at a time the husks and flour will separate more causing some people to get more husk and others to get more flour. It could be possible at some point that most of the flour will work its way to the bottom of the bin.

Yeah, this would really concern me. It's likely to give big variation in apparent efficiency and lautering.

To the OP, there's no problem with the grain being in (food safe) trash cans, but there is a probably an issue with fulfilling grain orders from bins of premilled grain.