My first all grain lacks ... something.

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Ambrose_Balin

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I got to crack open my first all grain brew (it's still green) today! It was a dry hopped IPA following a pretty straightforward recipe. I used the stove top BIAB method for small batch all grain.

4 lbs american 2row
2 lbs maris otter (because we had some left over)
1 lb caramel

us-05

I don't have my notes with me (I'm at work) but there were two ounces of pellets. One for 60 minutes and the other for 15. We dry hopped with an ounce of whole leaf hops.

Mash BIAB at 154 for 60 minutes. The temp fluctuated between 156 and 150ish over the hour.

My efficiency was higher than anticipated, but I still boiled down to the same volume. I ended up with just shy of 3 gallons at 1.054 after a 70ish minute boil.

The beer seems to be lacking in body, there is very little malt character. The hops and alcohol and carbonation are all very pleasant for the style, and very forward. But the hops are dominating because there isn't any maltiness to round them out. It's almost as if the malt flavor was watered down.

I really don't think my mash temps were low enough to account for so little body to this beer. I wondered if you guys could suggest something for me to investigate or tweak in the future.

Please let me know if you have any questions about my process, and I appreciate your time and help.
 
I'm still VERY new to this game, but have probably done more reading than I should have. Anyways, I'd be curious to see what your fermentation looked like. Steady temps? How are you controlling temperature?

Also, in regards to the all grain aspect - I'd be curious about your mash pH and maybe even possibly your water chemistry/mineral content. In addition, how did you aerate your wort? Aquarium pump? Oxygenation stone? Shaking?
 
For me if a beer seems to lack body either I used too much water, should have put some wheat (or tortified wheat), some more crystal in it, or base malt was low. Hops look OK to me in this one.

The only other piece of data that might help is if you had your efficiency reading. I personally have never done BIAB (but I do AG with a mash tun) but I do believe if you do a 'no sparge' AG you usually have to use a little more grain. So honestly that would be my humble advice. Up the grain bill a little, either more 2 row or marris otter as I think the bill is a little light, maybe another lb or 2 of 2 row.

Knowing the FG would help too. Maybe it didn't ferment?
 
I'm a new BIABer too and I was having the same issue too. Seems like the answers I get from here are always to get a finer crush for BIAB, squeeze away and maybe bump up your grain bill. I did pale last week and dispite my lower than wanted efficiency I can just tell from a wort taste that I will still b pleased. (Compared to my earlier extract brews). I found myself paying so much attention to my temps that a niglect my mash and getting every last drop of goodness out of it. Give it a whirl! Ps I did an AG IPA (not BIAB) a few months ago with the same results your explaining and found that after 2 months of sitting on tap it was much better than my first tasting.
 
Some suggestions that will help your body/malt character:

1) Definitely double crush your grain, if you are not already. If you order online, I have found that AHS, Midwest, Northern Brewer, Farmhouse, MoreBeer, etc. will all double crush your grain for free if you just ask them nicely :)

2) Start your mash a little higher, like at 156, and figure out a way to HOLD that temp more effectively over your hour mash. I'm in FL, not KY, so it is a little easier here in the winter, but I wrap my mash in a few heavy blankets. You should maybe go to Goodwill and grab a few thick blankets or even a thick sleeping bag if you don't have some old ones lying around (they will get a bit scorched!). BeerSmith II lists 156F as the proper mash temp for a FULL-BODIED BIAB batches, 152F for MEDIUM BODIED batches, and 148F as a LIGHT BODIED BIAB batches. If your mash is ending up closer to 150, you are closer to the light bodied temps for some portion of your mash.

3) It doesn't look like you are doing a mashout, which would help alot. AFTER your mash, put the BIAB kettle back on the burner and slowly heat up to 170 over 10 minutes with the bag in there. Stir like a maniac throughout that 10 minutes. If you hit 170 a little short, like 8-9 minutes, that's cool, just turn off the heat but keep stirring through the full 10 minutes. A mashout is good for about 0.05 more gravity points on my equipment.

4) After the mashout, while you are waiting for the wort to get up to boil, SQUEEZE THE CRAP OUT OF THE BAG. Like your life depends on it. All the most concentrated wort is in there!! There can be up to 0.75 gallons of uber concentrated wort per 10 lbs of grain that sticks around in the grain bag, and you should reasonably be able to get over 1/2 of that out with a little patience and a some good squeezin!

I do all of these steps and end up with pretty consistent efficiency between 76-80% and nice full-bodied beers.
 
Misplaced_Canuck said:
My guess is that your mash thermometer isn't good. Get that thing calibrated/buy a better one if the old one isn't accurate.

MC
Click to expand...

+1. And go with all marris otter next time for more malt character. Your yeast is also a really potent yeast, capable of chewing up a lot of sugars and drying up a beer
 
with that amount of crystal, those mash temps should have been fine for good body. what was your fg?
 
stupid question, but: how long ago did you bottle? how long did you let it sit in the fermenter? maybe this is all just a matter of conditioning, and if you wait two weeks, it'll taste like you want it to.

your grain bill looks fine. in fact, with that much crystal malt, it should have ended up pretty sweet. What was the fg?
 
Awesome! Thanks for all of the feedback, guys.

jholen, my fermentation seemed healthy. I never took direct measurements of temp, but the temperature in the room was a steady 65, so even if it was a bit warmer than that in the fermenter it should still be okay. I don't know anything about my water chemistry and have never observed my mash pH before either. I will look into that stuff more, particularly if the problem repeats. I have another AG in the fermenter right now :) Oh, also I aerated by shaking and the wort was also run through a strainer on the way to the fermenter.

sniperd, yeah I should have listed the FG. It was 1.012 for this batch. This was the first time that I made water volume considerations (shot for 1.25 quarts per pound for mash, used sparge water @ 170 for dunk sparge at a volume sufficient to bring total preboil volume to 4.3ish gallons). I don't remember the numbers but I took a preboil gravity reading and it was high for my volume, but I still boiled down to 3 gallons like I intended, so the OG was a little high. I'll consider shooting for more grain and less efficiency in the future maybe. You aren't the first to suggest that. Thanks for the pointer.

dooman333, thanks! That makes me feel better that it might get better with age. I know that carbonation and hops character are supposed to change for weeks, and that off flavors get cleaned up etc. I haven't heard that malt becomes more forward, but I'm glad to hear it might. These are awfully young beers I'm talking about.

misplaced_canuck, that's a good point. I've never tested my thermometer against another. It's one of those glass stick lab thermometers that aren't very handy for mashes. I'm gonna get a floating thermometer for my next one, and I'll compare their readings in some boiling water.

topher, thanks for giving me something else to try. I did do a dunk sparge into 170ish degree water for 10 minutes. I squeezed a little and then added the runnings to the main mash / boil kettle. Certainly I didn't bring the grain up to 170 though, nor stir fervently- just gently. My efficiency was actually good, but maybe some unfermentable malt character wasn't imparted somehow. Also my grain was only crushed once on my LHBS's default setting, so I'll look into finer milling in the future too.

southbay, some other's I've talked to have also foregone 2rows altogether in favor of maris otter for their base malts. I keep hearing good things, and have used it before but not in such a controlled way that I think I can distinguish it from other base malts or recognize its virtues. I'll consider upping it in the future, particularly if my low body issue repeats. Cheers.

wailingguitar, you may be on to something if my thermometer turns out to be inaccurate. I feel like the symptoms are the same as mashing at too low a temp. The difference in gravity during fermentation was higher than I expected, etc. Thanks.
 
Hi Palefire,

not a stupid question at all, as I only bottled 5 days ago and the beer is definitely green. I normally wouldn't have posted except that 1) I ALWAYS start drinking my partial mash brews early because I like to directly observe them age and none of them has lacked body this much and 2) I've never read about malt character increasing as the beers age. I usually hear about off flavors being cleaned up and hops mellowing.

It was in the carboy for about 15 days. FG was 1.011.

I hope that you are right that it's a conditioning issue. I'll stop opening them (I've got a case left :p ) until they are of age.

Cheers.
 
Ambrose_Balin said:
Awesome! Thanks for all of the feedback, guys.

jholen, my fermentation seemed healthy. I never took direct measurements of temp, but the temperature in the room was a steady 65, so even if it was a bit warmer than that in the fermenter it should still be okay. I don't know anything about my water chemistry and have never observed my mash pH before either. I will look into that stuff more, particularly if the problem repeats. I have another AG in the fermenter right now :) Oh, also I aerated by shaking and the wort was also run through a strainer on the way to the fermenter.
Click to expand...
fermentation temperature control is quite important. Of those three, temp control/mash pH/water, I'd say temp control is the top dog. fermenting in a
room that has a steady temperature is not bad, however you want to start the fermentation process at a lower temperature and let it slowly rise, rather than the opposite of starting or peaking high, and then cooling off.

I experienced this problem when I fermented at room temperatures - the active fermentation would kick off and heat up, however after the first 2-3 days after active fermentation was complete it'd settle back down to room temps. Something to look into - there are some cost effective solutions that don't necessarily require a temp controller and fridge/freezer. Send me a pm if you're interested and I'll try and take some pictures of my setup or find them for ya.

I know you mentioned that there was a lack of maltiness to your beer, and the hops were fairly strong/present. This could be due to an imbalance in your mineral content to your water. I don't know which imbalance it is, however I do know that certain chemicals can bring the bitterness more forward in taste, as well as for malt flavors. Something to look into. Look for your city's water report (all should have them on their website - just good "<City's name> annual water report")
 
Just my .02 cents, but an og of 1.054 with a very hoppy (2 ounces) beer, does'nt seem balanced.
You also achieved that with 1# of crystal malt.
You don't have a malty beer because you need more malt to start with.
My IPA's usually are about 1.072
Just saying.:mug:
Bull
 
Bull, yeah this isn't a very big one. I think the ABV is 5.6ish. That's very nearly what I was shooting for, and I know I've tasted other good hoppy beers in this range, but maybe I should up the grain bill a little next time or else boil longer. My stove top BIAB method doesn't make it super easy to hit higher OGs. Thanks for the 2 cents!
 
In case any care how this developed: Now that the beer has had a proper amount of time to condition, it is in fact delicious. I'm surprised to learn that it tasted so flat and transparent just because it hadn't aged enough, but there it is.

So this whole thing can be added to the giant pile of "OMG my beer isn't right!!" debacles that are in fact only due to the beer being opened before it was ready :p

Thanks everyone for chiming in and getting me to consider my process better.
 
I've been through that before I found HomeBrewTalk to get help. I did a Robust Porter that was anything but robust. I was sort of bummed about it but I had other beers to drink so every now and then I'd drink one of the porters just because they were there and one day it was good. It took something over 2 months if I remember correctly. It seemed to change in about a week's time.
 
TopherM said:
Some suggestions that will help your body/malt character:

1) Definitely double crush your grain, if you are not already. If you order online, I have found that AHS, Midwest, Northern Brewer, Farmhouse, MoreBeer, etc. will all double crush your grain for free if you just ask them nicely :)

2) Start your mash a little higher, like at 156, and figure out a way to HOLD that temp more effectively over your hour mash. I'm in FL, not KY, so it is a little easier here in the winter, but I wrap my mash in a few heavy blankets. You should maybe go to Goodwill and grab a few thick blankets or even a thick sleeping bag if you don't have some old ones lying around (they will get a bit scorched!). BeerSmith II lists 156F as the proper mash temp for a FULL-BODIED BIAB batches, 152F for MEDIUM BODIED batches, and 148F as a LIGHT BODIED BIAB batches. If your mash is ending up closer to 150, you are closer to the light bodied temps for some portion of your mash.

3) It doesn't look like you are doing a mashout, which would help alot. AFTER your mash, put the BIAB kettle back on the burner and slowly heat up to 170 over 10 minutes with the bag in there. Stir like a maniac throughout that 10 minutes. If you hit 170 a little short, like 8-9 minutes, that's cool, just turn off the heat but keep stirring through the full 10 minutes. A mashout is good for about 0.05 more gravity points on my equipment.

4) After the mashout, while you are waiting for the wort to get up to boil, SQUEEZE THE CRAP OUT OF THE BAG. Like your life depends on it. All the most concentrated wort is in there!! There can be up to 0.75 gallons of uber concentrated wort per 10 lbs of grain that sticks around in the grain bag, and you should reasonably be able to get over 1/2 of that out with a little patience and a some good squeezin!

I do all of these steps and end up with pretty consistent efficiency between 76-80% and nice full-bodied beers.
Click to expand...

Great stuff. I order from Northern and definitely will ask them to double crush my grains for my upcoming PM.

Where would a sparge fit into this order? Would it go Mash, Mashout, Sparge (the teabag kind), then pour Sparge in with Mash?
 
Did you use tap water? If so, I recommend tracking down a water report. Of particular interest are the sulfate and chloride levels. Sulfate accentuates hops and chloride increases maltiness. You may have a low chloride level or a high sulfate to chloride ratio, both of which may cause a perceived lack of maltiness.

The following link provides very helpful information on reading your water report:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

- I read the thread again and realized that you posted an update that the beer was delicious now, so this advice may be unwarranted and too late. -
 
SanFranBrewer said:
Great stuff. I order from Northern and definitely will ask them to double crush my grains for my upcoming PM.

Where would a sparge fit into this order? Would it go Mash, Mashout, Sparge (the teabag kind), then pour Sparge in with Mash?
Click to expand...

It's your choice whether to do a mashout or not. I don't. Sparging is optional too. If you squeeze the bag hard you will extract nearly all the sweet wort. I've started using cold water for the sparge with BIAB so I can cool the grain enough that I can really squeeze without the hot wort burning me. By squeezing that way my efficiency went up as I got more sugars out.:rockin:
 
RM-MN said:
It's your choice whether to do a mashout or not. I don't. Sparging is optional too. If you squeeze the bag hard you will extract nearly all the sweet wort. I've started using cold water for the sparge with BIAB so I can cool the grain enough that I can really squeeze without the hot wort burning me. By squeezing that way my efficiency went up as I got more sugars out.:rockin:
Click to expand...

I take it you aren't extracting anything off tasting out of the grains by directly squeezing it?
 
@sanFranBrewer

There is an often repeated fear of extracting tannins by squeezing the bag. I don't know how this rumor originated, but I understand that it is intuitively believable and so it makes sense that people would believe it upon hearing it.

It isn't true, however. The mash temps are too low to extract tannins, and the mash pH is too acidic. Tannins can not be squeezed out of the grain bag unless they have first been extracted chemically from the husks. They cannot be extracted mechanically.

Squeeze away, biab'ers.
 
Ambrose_Balin said:
@sanFranBrewer

There is an often repeated fear of extracting tannins by squeezing the bag. I don't know how this rumor originated, but I understand that it is intuitively believable and so it makes sense that people would believe it upon hearing it.

It isn't true, however. The mash temps are too low to extract tannins, and the mash pH is too acidic. Tannins can not be squeezed out of the grain bag unless they have first been extracted chemically from the husks. They cannot be extracted mechanically.

Squeeze away, biab'ers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the sage advice!
 

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