Multi-Cider-Recipe Test Batch

[Jdmonroe29]

Hey all, been lurking for a while while I first started learning and decided to join as I have run into a debacle. So far, I have done a basic mead and a caramel apple cider (recipe from here actually!) and both turned out pretty well. However, while I've decided to do another cider, I haven't been able to decide what kind. My buddies and I have had a handful of thoughts, like a berry cider and banana cider (had some at a local pub, I thought it was great) but I haven't really been able to settle on just one.
My thought is that I could do one 5-gallon batch of normal cider through primary, and once I go to re-rack for secondary, split the cider off into what would probably be 5 different containers and add fruits to make test batches of a gallon of each type. So, my questions about this are:

1) Is there anything I should be worried about with this process? Ideally, would using the same base mean the only differences would come down to the fruit added in secondary?

2) Right now, I'm thinking of a normal cider, berry, banana, peach, and gooseberry (maybe) for the 5. Are any of these fruit choices bad for any reason besides personal taste?

3) I'm stuck on how I should go about adding the banana to secondary. My main thought is to peel the bananas, cut them into slices, and then add to the secondary the same way as the coarsely blended berries of the sliced peaches. Is there a better way I'm not thinking of?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Sequoiacider]

1) Yes, the different fruits you add will be the only contributing difference, but the fruits could have other effects. For example, Bananas have a pH of 4.5-5.0. Depending on the pre-addition pH of your cider and how much fruit you add, the Bananas could bring your final pH above 3.8, which is considered to be the point where you risk bacterial infection. You could add Malic Acid (the naturally occurring acid in apples) to bring the pH back down to an acceptable range if necessary. The other fruits you mentioned are all in the pH range of 3.1-4.0, so they should not present the same potential issue.

2) Those all sound like good additions, and definitely a good idea to keep one as just Apple so you have a control to compare to. Keep in the mind the potential pH issue of the Bananas. I've done Peach and Blackberry in the past with excellent results and no need for special considerations. I haven't used Gooseberries before, but I have used Black Currant, which I understand to be similar (correct me if I am wrong). Do Gooseberries have the same "astringent" quality as Currants (the drying feeling on your tongue when you eat one)? I found that with Currants, the cider required a much longer period of time aging in bottle to mellow out. With all of the other ciders, I found them to be quite enjoyable after 1 month of Bottle Conditioning/Aging time. With the Currants, I found it to be undrinkable at 1 month, Drinkable at 6 months, and Really Good after 1 year.

3) Yes, it will work to use coarsely blended fruit added when racking to secondary. Leave more airspace for the ones with added fruit since the sugars in the added fruit will restart fermentation, and the added fruit may cause more krausen. You will need to rack again once the sugars in the added fruit have fermented out to get the cider off the spent fruit and allow for final clarification. When I am doing fruit-blend ciders, I use coarsely blended fruit as well, though I do so at the very beginning of Primary Fermentation.

The only other thing I can think of is the size of the bottles you are using for secondary. If you are splitting a five gallon batch and are then adding fruit, then you will have more than five gallons of volume. Are the containers you are planning on using for secondary larger than a gallon? You may need to split into 6 batches instead of 5.

 

[dlutter]

I have no input, but just wanted to thank you both for posting this well organized question and response. I am having a similar debate with myself about doing different flavor experiments with roughly 10 gallons each of home pressed perry and cider. Banana sounds interesting! Hope it goes well and don't forget to post the results!

 

[CKuhns]

Bump... Interested in what you do and how they come out.

 

[Jdmonroe29]

1) Yes, the different fruits you add will be the only contributing difference, but the fruits could have other effects. For example, Bananas have a pH of 4.5-5.0. Depending on the pre-addition pH of your cider and how much fruit you add, the Bananas could bring your final pH above 3.8, which is considered to be the point where you risk bacterial infection. You could add Malic Acid (the naturally occurring acid in apples) to bring the pH back down to an acceptable range if necessary. The other fruits you mentioned are all in the pH range of 3.1-4.0, so they should not present the same potential issue.

2) Those all sound like good additions, and definitely a good idea to keep one as just Apple so you have a control to compare to. Keep in the mind the potential pH issue of the Bananas. I've done Peach and Blackberry in the past with excellent results and no need for special considerations. I haven't used Gooseberries before, but I have used Black Currant, which I understand to be similar (correct me if I am wrong). Do Gooseberries have the same "astringent" quality as Currants (the drying feeling on your tongue when you eat one)? I found that with Currants, the cider required a much longer period of time aging in bottle to mellow out. With all of the other ciders, I found them to be quite enjoyable after 1 month of Bottle Conditioning/Aging time. With the Currants, I found it to be undrinkable at 1 month, Drinkable at 6 months, and Really Good after 1 year.

3) Yes, it will work to use coarsely blended fruit added when racking to secondary. Leave more airspace for the ones with added fruit since the sugars in the added fruit will restart fermentation, and the added fruit may cause more krausen. You will need to rack again once the sugars in the added fruit have fermented out to get the cider off the spent fruit and allow for final clarification. When I am doing fruit-blend ciders, I use coarsely blended fruit as well, though I do so at the very beginning of Primary Fermentation.

The only other thing I can think of is the size of the bottles you are using for secondary. If you are splitting a five gallon batch and are then adding fruit, then you will have more than five gallons of volume. Are the containers you are planning on using for secondary larger than a gallon? You may need to split into 6 batches instead of 5.

Thank you for taking your time to write all this out! I never would have thought about the pH being an issue. I'm pretty sure I have some malic acid on hand from my LHBS, so I'll be sure to watch out for the bananas and the pH. I haven't done or had anything with currants before, so I'm afraid I can't compare them to gooseberries, but I don't really get the drying feeling on my tongue when eating them (its been a while though. I should probably eat some before making the cider). I'm more than happy to let it sit for as long as it needs to though, so I'll be curious to figure out how it compares to aging time. As for batch size, I hadn't really thought about that if I'm honest. Depending on how much of each fruit I end up putting in each gallon, I may end up just doing 6 different flavors instead of 5 as you suggested so that I don't end up doing a weird 4.5 gallon primary. I still need to get the containers for secondary though as I've used food-grade buckets the first/last two times, and I only have a couple of those.
Edit: It would actually probably work better to divine the 5 gallons among 6 different containers, as that gives me something like 13.3 cups per container and leaves the empty 2.7 cups for the fruit, which I'm thinking will be enough for each gallon.

You mentioned you added fruit to the beginning of your primary rather than secondary. Is this a preference thing, or does this help to avoid longer times due to re-fermentation? I've read that people do both, but does one lend a better flavor or a different kind of flavor in your opinion? I haven't done a fruit blend before so I don't really have a standpoint on it.

Thank you for your great answers, I'll be sure to update with what happens with the batches as I get them started here soon!

 

[D.Freeman]

I did exactly this same process when I started making cider. I’ll share a couple things I learned. 1) it’s would be good keep one just Apple, no other fruit, to compare to the additions. 2) keep the leftover cider that is displaced by your fruit additions to top up your fermenters after racking off your fruit. 3) from what I’ve read adding fruit to secondary helps preserve more of the flavor that may get driven off during the robust fermentation in primary. Plus it allows you to do exactly as you are planning by splitting a large batch of base cider into multiple experiments. 4) I back sweetened using splenda. There are lots of varying opinions on this subject but I didn’t notice any off flavors from it. I also tried stevia but didn’t care for it. Xylitol is also an option that many people like but it can kill your dog if they eat into it so I skipped this option. 4) Here are some of the flavors I trued: raspberry, mango, oak (added Jack Daniels smoking chips), ginger, peach, black cherry, spiced, blackberry, cranberry

 

[Jdmonroe29]

I did exactly this same process when I started making cider. I’ll share a couple things I learned. 1) it’s would be good keep one just Apple, no other fruit, to compare to the additions. 2) keep the leftover cider that is displaced by your fruit additions to top up your fermenters after racking off your fruit. 3) from what I’ve read adding fruit to secondary helps preserve more of the flavor that may get driven off during the robust fermentation in primary. Plus it allows you to do exactly as you are planning by splitting a large batch of base cider into multiple experiments. 4) I back sweetened using splenda. There are lots of varying opinions on this subject but I didn’t notice any off flavors from it. I also tried stevia but didn’t care for it. Xylitol is also an option that many people like but it can kill your dog if they eat into it so I skipped this option. 4) Here are some of the flavors I trued: raspberry, mango, oak (added Jack Daniels smoking chips), ginger, peach, black cherry, spiced, blackberry, cranberry

Thanks for the tips! If I back sweeten, I’ll probably use a small amount of stevia. I haven’t used it before, but no off flavors would be ideal for sure. If I can ask, of the different flavors you listed, which was your favorite? The mango sounds interesting (may have to look into it if I can find them on sale) but I’m a fan of sweet fruit flavors. Thanks again!

 

[Sequoiacider]

The primary reason I add fruit at the start is that I believe having the most active fermentation happening on the ground fruit helps to extract the flavors. It also allows me to give extra clarification time, since the addition of ground fruit requires this if wanting a transparent end product without sediment.

That is just my personal "cider religion" tough. The great thing about this hobby is that you can play around with the process and find what works best for your personal tastes and preferences.

Regarding other potential fruit choices, I have also used Mango, which was excellent. Passion fruit was one of my absolute favorites and also pairs really nice with dry-hopping. Passion fruit is very expensive unless you happen to be in a place where it grows though.

 

[D.Freeman]

Thanks for the tips! If I back sweeten, I’ll probably use a small amount of stevia. I haven’t used it before, but no off flavors would be ideal for sure. If I can ask, of the different flavors you listed, which was your favorite? The mango sounds interesting (may have to look into it if I can find them on sale) but I’m a fan of sweet fruit flavors. Thanks again!

The raspberry and blackberry were great. I bought frozen berries,thawed them, mushed up in a bag, added to a gallon growler jug then racked the base cider into. The oaked one was good, I was going for a barrel aged kind of thing. It’s worth trying. The ginger was great, if you like ginger. I used this ginger juice, added to taste:
https://gingerpeople.com/products/ginger-juice/
I found it in the natural section at the grocery store. Mango was ok, I used frozen chucks the same way as I did the berries. Peach wasn’t bad either, I used nectar.

 

[D.Freeman]

Thanks for the tips! If I back sweeten, I’ll probably use a small amount of stevia. I haven’t used it before, but no off flavors would be ideal for sure. If I can ask, of the different flavors you listed, which was your favorite? The mango sounds interesting (may have to look into it if I can find them on sale) but I’m a fan of sweet fruit flavors. Thanks again!

How did this turn out??? What flavors did you go with?

 

[madscientist451]

I'm interested to hear about the banana addition, never considered adding that.