Most chocolate least roast in a malt?

[Sotko]

I’m planning a Belgian Stout and I’m looking for a lot of dark chocolate flavor but not a lot of roast. I’m curious what maltsha e the most chocolate with minimal roast and what % of the grist they work best.

I assume it will be something huskless like dehusked carafa (probably I or II?), chocolate rye, or chocolate wheat, but I’m curious what peoples experience with these various malts is. Any suggestions?

 

[Miraculix]

I have never ever had any malt deliver real a chocolate flavor and I have never had a commercial beer that had it, except the ones that had cocoa in any form in it.

I don't know where this strange mislabeling of dark malt flavour came from, but my guess is that the colour based naming of chocolate malt created a strong confirmation bias.

I have had roast, I have had coffee, acrid, burnt sugar and whatnot flavours in a beer but never chocolate.

Take a piece of chocolate in your mouth and focus on the taste. Be honest. That distinctive taste, in a beer? Never, except for the cocoa ones.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I've had good luck/results with chocolate rye.

 

[DBhomebrew]

+1 chocolate rye. Chocolate wheat brings a darker chocolate. Like Carafa Specials, these are huskless.

 

[Sotko]

@Miraculix, I’ve never really tested it like you describe. I certainly think I taste bitter chocolate and coffee in beers, but I that could well be confirmation bias. I’ll have to put some porters and stouts along side a high % cacao chocolate and see.

I’ll revise my question, in that case. What malts give the best dark-malt flavors with the least burnt roast astringency?

@Dr_Jeff does chocolate rye give you much of the distinct rye flavor you get from less roasted versions?

 

[Dr_Jeff]

@Sotko I had a beer that I had shared with the beer club that I was in at the time and shared the recipe.
One member brewed the beer with minimal changes and won an award in some competition

Minimal rye flavor due to the roasting of the malt, although I felt it gave more of a chocolate contribution, due to not being bitter from being a huskless malt.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix, I’ve never really tested it like you describe. I certainly think I taste bitter chocolate and coffee in beers, but I that could well be confirmation bias. I’ll have to put some porters and stouts along side a high % cacao chocolate and see.

I’ll revise my question, in that case. What malts give the best dark-malt flavors with the least burnt roast astringency?

@Dr_Jeff does chocolate rye give you much of the distinct rye flavor you get from less roasted versions?

There we have the next one

"Distinctive rye flavor". I have yet to find that flavour in a beer. I've read all about the rye "spyciness", often compared to German rye bread and other things that actually might have spices in it (see were this is going?).

Then I have brewed beer with rye and.... Nothing. Ok, I haven't gone past ten % to boost head retention, so the quest of finding the rye flavour is certainly not finished yet. But, according to internet wisdom, already little rye shall impart that "rye spiciness".

Other people who do direct comparisons and blind tests for fun here basically said the same that I said.

Doesn't help that rye is often used in beers with yeasts that actually create spicy phenols and esters themselves.... Confirmation bias here we go!

 

[Sotko]

I have never really been able to separate rye flavors out from smaller additions, but Roggenbiers and RyePAs I have had with >25% rye have definitely had a distinct flavor that I associate with rye (spicy isn’t really how I’d describe it, though). Again, can’t rule out confirmation bias. I guess I have a lot of blind taste testing in my future!

Thanks for the notes on Chocolate Rye and Chocolate Wheat! Has anyone had experience with any of the “pale chocolate” malts out there?

 

[Miraculix]

But to come back to your original question. I have been on the same journey. I wanted the mildest dark malt flavour contribution possible and I found out that roast barley does the job, if it is cold steeped over night and the extract is given to the boil at the point were you begin the cooling process, so at the very end of the boil.

Next possibility is adding carafa special 1 or 2 (I prefer 2) for the last ten minutes of the mash only. This also helps in two ways, carafa spezial is dehusked and mashing it for only ten minutes extracts less of the bitter stuff. This works also well, but not as good as the above with the cold steep.

You can also obviously cold steep carafa special! Just make sure it is "spezial", that's the dehusked version.

 

[Miraculix]

I have never really been able to separate rye flavors out from smaller additions, but Roggenbiers and RyePAs I have had with >25% rye have definitely had a distinct flavor that I associate with rye (spicy isn’t really how I’d describe it, though). Again, can’t rule out confirmation bias. I guess I have a lot of blind taste testing in my future!

Thanks for the notes on Chocolate Rye and Chocolate Wheat! Has anyone had experience with any of the “pale chocolate” malts out there?

I think I have to brew a pretty boring underhopped lager with 30% rye or something like that to be sure myself..... Hmmm .... Nice idea actually, American light rye lager. Why not?

 

[MicroMickey]

Keep in mind that chocolate malt, made from any grain, is named for the color; not the flavor. I understand what you're trying to do but consider cold steeping to get there.
The majority of cocoa powder added to a wort eventually finds itself at the bottom of the fermenter as a sludge. That's why so many recipes have a rather large percentage of cocoa powder in the batch. It will, however, produce chocolate flavor if that's what you're looking for.

 

[GBRbrew]

Carfa 3

 

[Velnerj]

In my experience and pallette I get more of a milk chocolate from chocolate rye and dark bitter chocolate from midnight wheat.

If you're just going for color with less astringency definitely recommend capping the last ten min of your mash with 1-5% roasted grain of your choice.

 

[Sotko]

All of this has been really helpful! I think there are two parts of the flavor I’m am interested in. First is where on the spectrum of dark malt flavors I want to be the second is the charter of that flavor. For what folks have shared (an some further googling it has inspired) I think I want to be on more “chocolate” side of the dark malt flavors (using that as shorthand, I know I should do some taste testing, miraculix) I also want the character to be smooth not astringent.

I think that means I should try chocolate rye (or maybe a low lovibond roast like pale chocolate). I will brew a more traditional stout after, which I will want more coffee and roast flavors but still smoother and I will lean more chocolate malt and roast barley, but try cold steeping.

Probably before any of that, I want to head to the LHBS and get a few ounces of a range of dark malts and do a set of cold steeps and hot steeps to taste test - I’m only about 2 years into this hobby and have some learning to do.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

 

[Miraculix]

All of this has been really helpful! I think there are two parts of the flavor I’m am interested in. First is where on the spectrum of dark malt flavors I want to be the second is the charter of that flavor. For what folks have shared (an some further googling it has inspired) I think I want to be on more “chocolate” side of the dark malt flavors (using that as shorthand, I know I should do some taste testing, miraculix) I also want the character to be smooth not astringent.

I think that means I should try chocolate rye (or maybe a low lovibond roast like pale chocolate). I will brew a more traditional stout after, which I will want more coffee and roast flavors but still smoother and I will lean more chocolate malt and roast barley, but try cold steeping.

Probably before any of that, I want to head to the LHBS and get a few ounces of a range of dark malts and do a set of cold steeps and hot steeps to taste test - I’m only about 2 years into this hobby and have some learning to do.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

What really opened my eyes, was doing two simple stouts, both only pale malt with either ten percent chocolate malt or roasted barley.

I for myself found out that everything you are describing is more present in the roasted barley. Choclate malt goes more in the direction of licorice, than chocolate, if you ask me.

Use some clean yeast for this, Nottingham is ideal, don't go over board with hops, 25 to 30ibus, bittering additions only.

Now that I heard about it, would definitely do three beers and include one version with ten percent chocolate rye.

 

[bracconiere]

I’ll revise my question, in that case. What malts give the best dark-malt flavors with the least burnt roast astringency?

i was racking my brain, and all i came up with is dark candi syrup? maybe darken some LME?

 

[tennesseean_87]

Another vote for cold steeping. Prepare your strike water the night before and leave dark malts in a filter bag or whatever overnight. The day you brew, pull the grain bag, and heat strike water and mash the rest as normal.

 

[jwa120]

I think that means I should try chocolate rye (or maybe a low lovibond roast like pale chocolate).

I find pale chocolate to be a bit harsh, I'd stay clear if you want something smoother.

Cold steeping really cuts out astringency but, sometimes I think it it does too good a job. Stout needs a little bite. Mash capping can get you somewhere in the middle, all depends on what your going for.

 

[doug293cz]

Is there any reason that you don't want to consider using a tincture made with cocoa nibs? I have had good results using 4 oz of cocoa nibs in enough vodka to cover, and letting it sit for a week. I use this to get a true chocolate flavor in my Samoa cookie ale, where I don't want the darkening that would come with chocolate or roasted grains (beer has color of toasted coconut.)

Brew on

 

[Sotko]

Nothing against cacao nibs or any other additive. I might put a bit of my brew on cacao nibs, date molasses, or both for a secondary fermentation. I just want to see what I can get from malt, yeast, and hops to start. I’m convinced by all the suggestions to try cold steeping. Got a range of lovibond ratings of barley from pale chocolate to roasted barley, as well as chocolate rye and midnight wheat from the LHBS and will do a small cold steep and mash-temp extraction of each to taste test.

I also went out and found Allagash North Sky to try and learn more about the style and it has exactly the kind of dark malt flavors with limited roast-astringency I’m shooting for. Excited to do a little more learning and start this brew!

Really appreciate all of the guidance.