Mosaic Saison

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PackBrewer

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I am attempting to create my first saison recipe using mosaic hops. Any thoughts? Has anyone made a single hopped saison with success? Also, I realize pilsner malt is typically used but I have a bunch of 2-row on hand so I am hoping that it will still work out.

Mosaic Saison

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.009
ABV: 6.7%
Color: 5.6 SRM
IBU: 33.8
10.75 lbs 2-row (71.7%)
2.75 lbs Rye malt (18.3%)
1 lb Flaked Wheat (6.7%)
0.5 lb Munich - 20 L (3.3%)
0.35 oz Mosaic 60 min (11.3 IBU)
0.65 oz Mosaic 15 min (10.4 IBU)
1.50 oz Mosaic Whirlpool 15 min (12 IBU)
Wyeast 3711
 
Saisons are largely a showcase for the yeast, so 2-row is perfectly acceptable (its what I use for all of mine), and any hops you want to throw in that won't hog the stage are worth trying, if only to see how the yeast-derived flavors interact with the hops. I'm not a big 3711 fan, but the recipe looks good.
 
Saisons are largely a showcase for the yeast, so 2-row is perfectly acceptable (its what I use for all of mine), and any hops you want to throw in that won't hog the stage are worth trying, if only to see how the yeast-derived flavors interact with the hops. I'm not a big 3711 fan, but the recipe looks good.

Thanks for the input! What saison yeast strains do you normally use or would recommend as a replacement?
 
The best I've made were from yeast I grew from a bottle of Dupont. 3711 wasn't objectionable, just unexciting, but a lot of folks here love it. I'd read the manufacturer's descriptions of the various strains and see what appeals to you, as a lot of this is dependent on personal taste.
 
I recently brewed a Saison myself. I personally wanted to use Hallertauer \ Vanguard, but I had to go with Hallertauer\Saaz instead..

Anyways i agree with kingwood that the yeast is the star here, and if you want to follow BJCP 16C, heres the link http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php. More realistically, Saison essentially is what was brewed by the farmers in that region using whatever grain they had to make a pleasant beer that would be ready to drink for the change into spring.

Sometimes the yeast used can be seen as Farmhouse yeast. I chose to go with White Labs WLP565, which is based off the Wallonia strain (http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp565-belgian-saison-i-yeast)... according to MrMalty, this is the Brasserie Dupont (Saison Dupont) strain. The Wyeast equivalent would be 3724 Belgian Saison Yeast.

Im excited for you if this is your first Saison! Let us know how it turns out!
 
I like the inclusion of rye.......... for it's complexity. Personally I feel that Mosaic shines best in a lower gravity brew than this.


H.W.
 
Thanks for all the replies!

I am thinking I might stick with 3711 this time as I have read its easy to use (ferments out like a beast, wide temperature range, etc.) and will try something else next time if its too boring.

Owly055.... The main reason I am using mosaic is that I had an all mosaic hopped saison from Wicked Weed and it was absolutely delicious! So I am hoping for similar results :mug:
 
I've been playing with a mostly Mosaic lager recipe for about a week now on Brewer's Friend. It will be a 2.5 gallon brew, and will be hopped at a rate of 1.2 ounces per gallon for a full 3 ounces of hops. 2/3 Mosaic, and 1/3 Willamette (for spice). All very close to the end of the boil. (under 5 minutes). I'm moving toward hopping very heavily near the end of the boil these days. It should have very intense flavor.
I should have an empty fermenter available this weekend.... actually two of them, and I've had a starter going for several days for the lager, which will be pitched quite heavily.


H.W.
 
I'm a huge saison fan and I've made over 20 of them with just about every saison strain I can get my hands on (wlp565 566 670, WY3711, omega yeast, and a few commercial culture attempts) . 3711 is definetly one of my preferred strains since I like my saisons super dry. I start it about about 65 and let it climb to the mid 80s with some help if needed. Gives a great spicy flavor.

Speaking of dry, I always include 5 to 10 percent simple sugars in my saisons. You made a hood choice by omitting specialty malts, but the only thing I'd recommend is to add some sugar or honey in there.
 
Speaking of dry, I always include 5 to 10 percent simple sugars in my saisons. You made a hood choice by omitting specialty malts, but the only thing I'd recommend is to add some sugar or honey in there.

This.

Done a few different saisons, and am doing another this weekend. can't get enough of it!! asked for similar feedback from a recent thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/saison-recipe-critique-521912/

instead of mosaic (great choice btw!), I've opted for a Nelson Sauvin schedule. Agree on the Rye addition....love that and may need to get that going soon. Definitely consider using honey (16oz) at flameout. 3711 will eat away at heartily!!

Happy Saison brewing!!
 
I did a mosaic and nelson saison last summer, both with 3711. Ended up brett'g the nelson and have maybe 6 btls left. I think I have 2 of the mosaics left.

I'd suggest a dry hop. I was trying to emulate the Wicked Weed Mosaic Saison and while I didn't approach theirs, I did made a solid saison.
 
Pretty much the epitome of Saison is brew whatever you like, however you like. Not everyone has to brew to BJCP guidelines. My favorite Saisons are all way outside of the guidelines. Mosaic is a fantastic hop for a Saison in the 4.5-5.5 ABV range. I brewed a galaxy hopped Saison and will re-brew it again. Keep the bittering units around 25ish and use late editions and a small amount of dry hopping and it will be great. I'd lower your whirlpool to maybe 1oz and dry hop with the .5oz. Or keep it just how you have it. Either way 3711 is a great yeast to start brewing Saisons with as well. You could use some sugar but 3711 will chew through most everything to attenuate well. Rye goes fantastic with that yeast, btw.

I know this is an older post. If you have already brewed this, how did it go? I'm interested in Mosaic as a hop now as well. Did a pale ale with it once and it was fantastic.
 
Post back and let us know how it turns out. I have a ton of mosaic sitting in the freezer that needs using up... and a mosaic saison sounds interesting.
 
Pretty much the epitome of Saison is brew whatever you like, however you like. Not everyone has to brew to BJCP guidelines. My favorite Saisons are all way outside of the guidelines. Mosaic is a fantastic hop for a Saison in the 4.5-5.5 ABV range. I brewed a galaxy hopped Saison and will re-brew it again. Keep the bittering units around 25ish and use late editions and a small amount of dry hopping and it will be great. I'd lower your whirlpool to maybe 1oz and dry hop with the .5oz. Or keep it just how you have it. Either way 3711 is a great yeast to start brewing Saisons with as well. You could use some sugar but 3711 will chew through most everything to attenuate well. Rye goes fantastic with that yeast, btw.

I know this is an older post. If you have already brewed this, how did it go? I'm interested in Mosaic as a hop now as well. Did a pale ale with it once and it was fantastic.



How about an Imperial Saison........ is that an oxymoron? 8%+ abv. It will be brewed very warm to highlight the yeast character. It will have a wide variety of grains, malted and unmalted, but a relatively small grain bill with significant sugar additions. It will be anchored with Amarillo, bittered with Summit, and contain one or two other hops to set off the Amarillo with opposing and balancing flavors and aromas.
With Saison, anything goes..........right?? This will use a significant amount of multi grain cereal (which I've used before with good result). And Belle Saison Yeast.

I made a number of single hop saisons..... Nugget turned out to be one of my favorites. Northern Brewer and Hallertau worked extremely well also....... I haven't brewed anything with Lallemand Belle Saison that I haven't liked!!


H.W.
 
I think the point gus_13 was making is that the style is open to interpretation.

This is 100% what I mean. The saison beer is more than anything a beer brewed out of necessity with whatever you have on hand. By history, not BJCP guidelines, it was brewed with any and all grains that the farmer/brewer had on hand. And also whatever hops they had.
 
I agree that realistically it's a very loose category. Of course if one looks at who brewed it originally and where, the hops would probably not be fruity, more likely somewhat floral, earthy spicy, etc. Virtually any kind of fermentable would seem to be appropriate, malted or unmalted...... perhaps with the exception of rice and a few others that would not have been available. Grains, fruit juices, honey.
Because Saison was originally a beer of opportunity, using what was available, it ought to be a beer of opportunity for us also................... Do we really care about BJCP guidelines? I don't. I rarely brew to any guidelines ......... Below is the BJCP description:

H.W.

16C. Saison

Aroma: High fruitiness with low to moderate hop aroma and moderate to no herb, spice and alcohol aroma. Fruity esters dominate the aroma and are often reminiscent of citrus fruits such as oranges or lemons. A low to medium-high spicy or floral hop aroma is usually present. A moderate spice aroma (from actual spice additions and/or yeast-derived phenols) complements the other aromatics. When phenolics are present they tend to be peppery rather than clove-like. A low to moderate sourness or acidity may be present, but should not overwhelm other characteristics. Spice, hop and sour aromatics typically increase with the strength of the beer. Alcohols are soft, spicy and low in intensity, and should not be hot or solventy. The malt character is light. No diacetyl.

Appearance: Often a distinctive pale orange but may be golden or amber in color. There is no correlation between strength and color. Long-lasting, dense, rocky white to ivory head resulting in characteristic “Belgian lace” on the glass as it fades. Clarity is poor to good though haze is not unexpected in this type of unfiltered farmhouse beer. Effervescent.

Flavor: Combination of fruity and spicy flavors supported by a soft malt character, a low to moderate alcohol presence and tart sourness. Extremely high attenuation gives a characteristic dry finish. The fruitiness is frequently citrusy (orange- or lemon-like). The addition of one of more spices serve to add complexity, but shouldn’t dominate in the balance. Low peppery yeast-derived phenols may be present instead of or in addition to spice additions; phenols tend to be lower than in many other Belgian beers, and complement the bitterness. Hop flavor is low to moderate, and is generally spicy or earthy in character. Hop bitterness may be moderate to high, but should not overwhelm fruity esters, spices, and malt. Malt character is light but provides a sufficient background for the other flavors. A low to moderate tart sourness may be present, but should not overwhelm other flavors. Spices, hop bitterness and flavor, and sourness commonly increase with the strength of the beer while sweetness decreases. No hot alcohol or solventy character. High carbonation, moderately sulfate water, and high attenuation give a very dry finish with a long, bitter, sometimes spicy aftertaste. The perceived bitterness is often higher than the IBU level would suggest. No diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium body. Alcohol level can be medium to medium-high, though the warming character is low to medium. No hot alcohol or solventy character. Very high carbonation with an effervescent quality. There is enough prickly acidity on the tongue to balance the very dry finish. A low to moderate tart character may be present but should be refreshing and not to the point of puckering.

Overall Impression: A refreshing, medium to strong fruity/spicy ale with a distinctive yellow-orange color, highly carbonated, well hopped, and dry with a quenching acidity.

Comments: Varying strength examples exist (table beers of about 5% strength, typical export beers of about 6.5%, and stronger versions of 8%+). Strong versions (6.5%-9.5%) and darker versions (copper to dark brown/black) should be entered as Belgian Specialty Ales (16E). Sweetness decreases and spice, hop and sour character increases with strength. Herb and spice additions often reflect the indigenous varieties available at the brewery. High carbonation and extreme attenuation (85-95%) helps bring out the many flavors and to increase the perception of a dry finish. All of these beers share somewhat higher levels of acidity than other Belgian styles while the optional sour flavor is often a variable house character of a particular brewery.

History: A seasonal summer style produced in Wallonia, the French-speaking part of Belgium. Originally brewed at the end of the cool season to last through the warmer months before refrigeration was common. It had to be sturdy enough to last for months but not too strong to be quenching and refreshing in the summer. It is now brewed year-round in tiny, artisanal breweries whose buildings reflect their origins as farmhouses.

Ingredients: Pilsner malt dominates the grist though a portion of Vienna and/or Munich malt contributes color and complexity. Sometimes contains other grains such as wheat and spelt. Adjuncts such as sugar and honey can also serve to add complexity and thin the body. Hop bitterness and flavor may be more noticeable than in many other Belgian styles. A saison is sometimes dry-hopped. Noble hops, Styrian or East Kent Goldings are commonly used. A wide variety of herbs and spices are often used to add complexity and uniqueness in the stronger versions, but should always meld well with the yeast and hop character. Varying degrees of acidity and/or sourness can be created by the use of gypsum, acidulated malt, a sour mash or Lactobacillus. Hard water, common to most of Wallonia, can accentuate the bitterness and dry finish.
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 – 1.065
IBUs: 20 – 35 FG: 1.002 – 1.012
SRM: 5 – 14 ABV: 5 – 7%

Commercial Examples: Saison Dupont Vieille Provision; Fantôme Saison D’Erezée - Printemps; Saison de Pipaix; Saison Regal; Saison Voisin; Lefebvre Saison 1900; Ellezelloise Saison 2000; Saison Silly; Southampton Saison; New Belgium Saison; Pizza Port SPF 45; Lost Abbey Red Barn Ale; Ommegang Hennepin
 
Yeah, I wrote a paper on saisons and their french cousin biere de garde. The originals were much lower in alcohol (~3%) than todays. They needed to serve as hydration for field hands at the farmhouse breweries in Wallonia. many of today's saisons are sometimes called "super saisons" and are generally around 8%. Personally, I usually try to target around 7% with all of mine
 
Yeah, I wrote a paper on saisons and their french cousin biere de garde. The originals were much lower in alcohol (~3%) than todays. They needed to serve as hydration for field hands at the farmhouse breweries in Wallonia. many of today's saisons are sometimes called "super saisons" and are generally around 8%. Personally, I usually try to target around 7% with all of mine

Interestingly there are a number of electrolyte beers now being made, and all are extremely low alcohol. Alcohol screws up the hydration and electrolyte equation completely. Clearly drunken farm hands are NOT what Belgian farmers want.

I would suggest that many Belgian farmers probably made a field hand grade saison, and a premium saison for the table at home, with more expensive ingredients and higher ABV. A beer he could sip while smoking his pipe while sitting in his overstuffed chair getting quietly plastered.

I brewed my "Imperial Saison" the other day, and it should go to about 8% ABV. It contains 35% all grain cereal, and 18% sugar, and hops that really are not appropriate, anchored by 2 ounces of Amarillo in a 3 gallon brew (one in whirlpool), Summit for bittering only, and half an ounce each of Willamette and Calliente. .... Everything at 3 min except the Summit and the whirlpool addition. I'm fermenting it at ambient temp.. It's approaching 24 hours and the fermometer is reading 74F. I expect it to range well into the 80's during the day, dropping into the mid 70's at night........ I'm making no effort whatsoever to manage fermentation temps.


H.W.
 
Interestingly there are a number of electrolyte beers now being made, and all are extremely low alcohol. Alcohol screws up the hydration and electrolyte equation completely. Clearly drunken farm hands are NOT what Belgian farmers want.

I would suggest that many Belgian farmers probably made a field hand grade saison, and a premium saison for the table at home, with more expensive ingredients and higher ABV. A beer he could sip while smoking his pipe while sitting in his overstuffed chair getting quietly plastered.

I brewed my "Imperial Saison" the other day, and it should go to about 8% ABV. It contains 35% all grain cereal, and 18% sugar, and hops that really are not appropriate, anchored by 2 ounces of Amarillo in a 3 gallon brew (one in whirlpool), Summit for bittering only, and half an ounce each of Willamette and Calliente. .... Everything at 3 min except the Summit and the whirlpool addition. I'm fermenting it at ambient temp.. It's approaching 24 hours and the fermometer is reading 74F. I expect it to range well into the 80's during the day, dropping into the mid 70's at night........ I'm making no effort whatsoever to manage fermentation temps.


H.W.

I might try to insulate it a bit to keep it from dropping before msot of the fermentation is finished. The only ever brew ive made that tasted like bandaids was a saison that fluctuated up and down 8-10 degrees each day
 
I brewed a version of this with the grain bill and mosaic and summit hops then belle saison. It's amazing. Good work
 
I'm taking a shot at a mosaic saison soon. Thinking something simple along these lines:

70% 2 Row
15% Rye
10% Munich
5% Toasted oats
Mosaic @ 60, 15, 0 to 28 IBU
3711 --> 1.046 (~5.5% abv)

I don't want it getting too juicy for the style, so maybe 1 oz each at 15 and 0 for a 5 gal batch. I might dabble with this sour mash business too. Maybe next time though.
 
I'm taking a shot at a mosaic saison soon. Thinking something simple along these lines:

70% 2 Row
15% Rye
10% Munich
5% Toasted oats
Mosaic @ 60, 15, 0 to 28 IBU
3711 --> 1.046 (~5.5% abv)

I don't want it getting too juicy for the style, so maybe 1 oz each at 15 and 0 for a 5 gal batch. I might dabble with this sour mash business too. Maybe next time though.

Looks good to me. Personally I would kettle sour it instead of sour mash. That way it's more controlled. I'd use a lacto strain or probiotic as well. Any info you want on sour worting you can find here http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Sour_Worting.

I like your idea of not going to juicy as well. You may could even bitter with a softer hop to leave room for more mosaic later.

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the tip. Think I'll do that to avoid pH troubles. Second guessing the recipe too. Love rye but I'm gonna drop it here and go with just 2 Row, munich and oats. Wanting something simple and rustic (if that's the right word)
 
16C. Saison
It's 2015. Just say'in. :D

Saisons is now 25B and has to be entered according to strength and color.

Vital Statistics:

OG:
1.048 – 1.065 (standard)

IBUs:
20 – 35

FG: 1.002 – 1.008 (standard)

SRM:
5 – 14 (pale)
15 – 22 (dark)

ABV:
3.5 – 5.0% (table)
5.0 – 7.0% (standard)
7.0 – 9.5% (super)

edit:
Old thread, (but not that old).
Doing some Saison research and found it . . .
Thinking about a Mosaic Saison. Wonder if they sell Wicked Weed in NJ?
 

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