More on high pH with extract brews

[irontodd]

I have read a number of times here on HBT and elsewhere that extracts have already accounted for mash pH and such, and that it's probably best to use distilled or RO water when using brewing extracts. I think I understand that keeping close to that mash pH once you've rehydrated your wort provides a healthy environment for your yeast. Ok, no issue there. What I am unclear on is what it means when folks say things like using high pH water in your extract brew may change the flavor. Can someone quantify this for me?

I am currently living in my forever home, and on a well. I have tested water pH on several occasions and it has been consistent each time I have tested (a handful of times over 2 years). I started my homebrew career on this well. I've brewed 10 extract batches, and 8 I have been happy with. The first 2 were a different brand and an entry level kit, so inexperience and ingredient source were factors. Of all the times I have shared my brew with friends, they have asked to take some home. Every time. I have also gotten comments like "this is the best homebrew I've tasted" and "most homebrew tastes funny but yours is smooth and balanced". My water is a 9.2 to 9.3 pH. What reason would I have to start adding salts or whatever to bring my pH down?

If I change the wort pH, it might change the flavor. I'm not sure that's something I want! Prove me wrong.

 

[bitteritdown]

Have you had your water tested to determine it's make-up?

Have you made any light colored beers? (light lager, pilsner)

Have you made any dark beers? (Stout, Porter)

Yeast normally adjust their environment to suit, which means they'll bring the pH inline with what they need to ferment.

If you like your beer, then why complain?

Good friends are known not to criticize.

Your attitude of "I'm right prove me wrong" shines through well in your post.

A simple question of "What is the effect of high pH on extract brew?" would suffice. Google may even have an answer for you.

Who are these "folks" telling you that high pH changes the flavor of extract beer? Do you have a reference?

These links may help you find the answers you seek:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/water-for-extract-brewers/
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1...ater-chemistry-adjustment-for-extract-brewing

 

[irontodd]

Thank you for the links. I have read howtobrew.com in its entirety, though that was very early on in my brewing, a reread might make sense now that things are getting more serious.

I suppose a ward labs test would help me understand more of what I am getting out of my beer; I have not gotten a complete water report.I have also not tested my wort pH or final beer ph.

All of my beers have been partial boil extracts, so there's some opportunities there as far as final SRM and hop utilization when compared to a full boil. My witbier is about a 10 SRM and my porter Black. Hop bitterness, to my knowledge, would be affected to the lesser side, by boil size and our elevation (lower boil temp).

There's a lot I don't know about brewing, that's why I am here asking questions. I was hoping to get some feedback on, like, is there a specific dullness to the flavor or malty notes are less pronounced in a high-pH extract brew. I like my beer, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Just looking for an idea on the impact to the palate, more than just that the yeast are working to create acid, not alcohol and flavor, for example, as mentioned by AJDelange here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-in-extract-brewing.570566/#post-7365747
This aligns with your comment above. What does that mean to the final flavor?

Today, I don't 'want' to start fooling with water chemistry, but if someone makes a case for it, I will consider it.

 

[bitteritdown]

A high water pH may result in a high boil pH which has the following effects:

1.) causes maillard reactions to happen faster making a darker wort
2.) hop utilization increases but bitterness is harsher
3.) higher final pH of the beer and thus a dull flavor

Just because you see this list doesn't mean it's relevant to your beer.

You'll need to do *some* experimentation to determine where you stand.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/proper-boil-ph/
https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/9315/what-is-the-ideal-boil-ph
http://brulosophy.com/2016/08/08/water-chemistry-pt-5-boil-ph-in-an-ipa-exbeeriment-results/
https://byo.com/malt/item/1494-the-principles-of-ph
https://byo.com/hops/item/1519-top-10-steps-to-better-beer
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/post-boil-wort-ph.454192/

It wouldn't be difficult to bring your water down to pH 5.4, which doesn't really involve chemistry just a pH meter, some acid and/or RO Water. Dilute with RO and/or add small amounts of acid until the meter reads 5.4. Maybe next brew try a 50/50 RO/Tap dilution.

 

[irontodd]

Bitteritdown, thanks for following up. Those links you added are quite helpful to me, although I will have to reread the byo one principles of ph again when I have a clearer head.

 

[ajdelange]

Actually water pH is not really of concern. What is important is if the water's alkalinity is high. Now often high pH and high alkalinity go together but not always. I can prepare a water sample for you with a pH of 9 and an alkalinity of 5 ppm as CaCO3. This would not be a problem at all. OTOH a water with a pH of 8.3 and an alkalinity of 250 (which I can also easily prepare) would be a problem.

For a complete picture, especially when pH gets higher than about 8, we do need to know the pH value but that does not tell us all that we need to know. We need to know the alkalinity (or lacking that bicarbonate concentration) so post again with an alkalinity number for your water and we'll see if there is any problem.

For an extract beer the mashing pH has been managed for you by the extract maker. Water with high alkalinity can, however, pull the kettle pH high. You can obviously see if this is a problem simply by checking kettle pH. It should be between 5.0 and 5.3, perhaps as high as 5.3 or 5.4. If it is higher than this you can add a bit of acid during boiling to correct.

A simple trick is to acidify the water you use to pH 5.4 or so. This incorporates measuring the alkalinity, calculating the necessary acid to zero it out and adding the acid all in one step.

Also keep in mind that if your well water is loaded with sulfate, for example, that's going to influence your hops perception etc. Even though you are an extract brewer it would be well worth the modest investment for a complete water report. Most here use Ward Labs.

 

[ajdelange]

A high water pH may result in a high boil pH which has the following effects:
....
3.) higher final pH of the beer and thus a dull flavor

I know that seems logical but in fact the main factor determining beer pH is the yeast strain used. Yeasts are low pH loving things and will secrete acid until they get into the pH range they like and then turn their attention to what you hired them for: making beer. It is true that high alkalinity (not pH as pointed out in the last post) forces them to be acid makers and not beer makers and it is also true that a large alkalinity load will result in a slightly higher pH for a given strain than if the alkalinity is low.

 

[bitteritdown]

Actually water pH is not really of concern. What is important is if the water's alkalinity is high. Now often high pH and high alkalinity go together but not always. I can prepare a water sample for you with a pH of 9 and an alkalinity of 5 ppm as CaCO3. This would not be a problem at all. OTOH a water with a pH of 8.3 and an alkalinity of 250 (which I can also easily prepare) would be a problem.

For a complete picture, especially when pH gets higher than about 8, we do need to know the pH value but that does not tell us all that we need to know. We need to know the alkalinity (or lacking that bicarbonate concentration) so post again with an alkalinity number for your water and we'll see if there is any problem.

For an extract beer the mashing pH has been managed for you by the extract maker. Water with high alkalinity can, however, pull the kettle pH high. You can obviously see if this is a problem simply by checking kettle pH. It should be between 5.0 and 5.3, perhaps as high as 5.3 or 5.4. If it is higher than this you can add a bit of acid during boiling to correct.

A simple trick is to acidify the water you use to pH 5.4 or so. This incorporates measuring the alkalinity, calculating the necessary acid to zero it out and adding the acid all in one step.

Also keep in mind that if your well water is loaded with sulfate, for example, that's going to influence your hops perception etc. Even though you are an extract brewer it would be well worth the modest investment for a complete water report. Most here use Ward Labs.

I know that seems logical but in fact the main factor determining beer pH is the yeast strain used. Yeasts are low pH loving things and will secrete acid until they get into the pH range they like and then turn their attention to what you hired them for: making beer. It is true that high alkalinity (not pH as pointed out in the last post) forces them to be acid makers and not beer makers and it is also true that a large alkalinity load will result in a slightly higher pH for a given strain than if the alkalinity is low.

Absolutely agree that alkalinity is King and yeast attempt to set pH. However, one does not need to know the alkalinity to drop the pH, only a pH meter (or test strips), some acid and patience. Perhaps test drop the pH on a liter of tap water first before scaling up. Relative alkalinity level if interested (low, high), could be deduced by amount of acid required, of course you'd need a reference water to determine this.

High boil pH isn't necessarily always corrected by yeast (as you mention). Yeast do help and a healthy pitch helps but they can certainly leave it higher than would be optimal.

 

[ajdelange]

Absolutely agree that alkalinity is King and yeast attempt to set pH.

They are not perfect regulators.

However, one does not need to know the alkalinity to drop the pH, only a pH meter (or test strips), some acid and patience.

This is the 'simple trick' of No. 6

Perhaps test drop the pH on a liter of tap water first before scaling up.

This would be prudent in order to determine, at least approximately, how much acid is going to be required to set the entire water volume to pH 5.4 (or whatever). This is, of course, effectively an alkalinity titration and, if you know the strength of the acid used (the commonly sold 88% lactic is about 11.3 N), you can determine the alkalinity from the volume used. OTOH if you do the whole volume at once and overshoot removing acid is a simple matter or removing some of the over-acidified water and replacing it with untreated water.

Relative alkalinity level if interested (low, high), could be deduced by amount of acid required, of course you'd need a reference water to determine this.

You can determine absolute alkalinity this way and you don't need a reference water but you should, for accurate results, standardize the acid. For fairly good results the 11.3 N value should be good enough. The acid could be standardized against some calcium carbonate (chalk) quite easily if you have a way to weigh it accurately. I have noted that lots of home brewers also reload their own ammunition so don't overlook your reloading scale if you have one.

High boil pH isn't necessarily always corrected by yeast (as you mention). Yeast do help and a healthy pitch helps but they can certainly leave it higher than would be optimal.

I don't mean to imply that one can be cavalier about wort pH/alkalinity relying on the yeast to clean up any blunder. Clearly they will produce better beer if they are putting their energy into fermenting beer as opposed to making acid to set pH to their liking. This will be the case if the water's alkalinity is removed. In the 'simple trick' I suggested zeroing out the alkalinity at mash pH by acidifying the water to mash pH. But why don't we acidify it to proper kettle pH (i.e 5.0 - 5.2) thus knocking out the alkalinity in the kettle and giving the yeast wort that requires minimum acid production on their part? That seems the sensible thing to do but I haven't brewed with extract (other than to make starters) for years and can't claim that I have tried this. Note that if acidifying to pH 5.0 the strength of 88% lactic acid drops to 10.7 N and if to 5.3 it is 11.0 N.