Mini Starter help

[TinyBubblesDub]

Hey guys!

Quick preface: I have 5 successful batches under my belt, but I have never pitched from a starter before. I use the Wyeast smack packs. I know that wyeast says it's acceptable to use them directly in 5 gallon batches, but that HBT advises making a starter.

After work today I'm headed to the LHBS to buy some ingrediants. I would like to brew tomorrow afternoon/evening. I'm making a Oatmeal Stout (I think aprox OG 1.055 or within .005), so I think I should probably make a starter so it makes it to 1.01 (I always end up .005 over what I target)

The question is, can I make a starter in 20 hours time? Like a mini-starter. I'm using Wyeast 1084, how little wort should I use?

 

[joetothemo]

20 hours should be fine. You *should* be at full krausen at that point.

Your starter OG should be in the 1030-1040 range.

Use this to calculate your starter volume:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[ddahl84]

Ive been using one cup DME to about one pint of water. Boiled, cooled, pitch. I usually make mine one day before brewing so 20 hours should be alright.

 

[kyle6286]

Ive been using one cup DME to about one pint of water. Boiled, cooled, pitch. I usually make mine one day before brewing so 20 hours should be alright.

One cup DME and one pint of water for a 5 gallon batch? I'm going to make my first starter tonight. I used mrmalty's calculator and for my belgian wheat, I'm calculating about 1.44 liters. The SG is 1.046 and I'm using a wyeast activator.

 

[unionrdr]

Seems like1L starter for an average gravity brew is a bit much,but what do I know. I got some old yeast/LME can from '09. Just made a starter of 1 1/2C of 150F water,& 1/4C of DME. Let it come down to about 75F,then pitched the old yeast sachet & stirred lightly. 3.5 hours later,It was rich & creamy. But,since my 1.044 OG wort took 3 weeks to come down to FG,I'd say 24 hours would've been better. Might've knocked off a week of ferment time. Ferment crawled along pretty slow that last week (3rd).
Then still had to dry hop for one week.

 

[joetothemo]

One cup DME and one point of water for a 5 gallon batch? I'm going to make my first starter tonight. I used mrmalty's calculator and for my belgian wheat, I'm calculating about 1.44 liters. The SG is 1.046 and I'm using a wyeast activator.

Recent Brewstrong podcast Q and A, Palmer and Jamil said that there is not much use in any starter < 1L (other than to prove the viability of the yeast).

No citation, you just have to believe me

 

[kyle6286]

Seems like1L starter for an average gravity brew is a bit much,but what do I know. I got some old yeast/LME can from '09. Just made a starter of 1 1/2C of 150F water,& 1/4C of DME. Let it come down to about 75F,then pitched the old yeast sachet & stirred lightly. 3.5 hours later,It was rich & creamy. But,since my 1.044 OG wort took 3 weeks to come down to FG,I'd say 24 hours would've been better. Might've knocked off a week of ferment time. Ferment crawled along pretty slow that last week (3rd).
Then still had to dry hop for one week.

1 liter seems high? I must be doing something wrong. My SG is 1.046, volume us gallons is 5.25 and production date is 4/25. It's telling me I need 1.51 liters for starter. Can anyone tell me if this seems wrong?

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Hmmm, I was under the impression normal starters took 3ish days. thats why I assumed this thread was going to be about a mini starter.

using the mrmalty calc, I put 1.055 OG and 5 gallons of Wort.

It says I need 1.79 Liters of starter, isn't that a bit much? like will the yeast go through that in 20 hours?

 

[unionrdr]

Well,1L being basically 4C,that's a whole pitcher of starter! But you're right about what brew strong said. I just needed to re-animate (young Frankenstein!) some old yeast from 2009. But I thought,"hey,why not give'em something yummy to snack on? they'll be pigging out on it later anyway!". It took only a few hours for that little starter to push brown krausen up against the lid of my cooper's micro fermenter. That lid creaked like an old wooden ship for four days! So a huge amount of starter liquid doesn't seem as necessary,but rather,yeast count does. Reaganomics at work again! (dense pack system) Hope that clears up my original intentions.
*PS-I think 1 1/2C-2C of starter should be plenty for 24 hours. I don't think they'll need more than that in that amount of time. This is from my own observations. Next time I can absolutely plan my schedule,I'll try a 2C starter with 1/2C DME & one dry yeast sachet for 24 hours to see how it works out. I've been using 1.7kg of LME & 1.4kg of DME with hops & all to make 23L (6.072G) of ale. OG of 1.044-1.048 typically. So,if just proofing your yeast,my 1st mentioned starter size is plenty to blow the airlock off. Trust me...lolz.

 

[KevinW]

Two possible ways to do a starter:
1. Ferment 18-20 hours to achieve high krausen then pitch entire starter into your wort
2. Let the starter fermenet out ~3-4 days, crash cool in fridge overnight and pour off
the liquid and just pitch the yeast slurry.

I have done both and had good results with both, just depends on when I get the starter going.

I generally use 100gm of DME per Liter of water for my starters.

I make a minimum of 1L starters, it is very difficult to "overpitch" a homebrew batch so in reality the more the better! More yeast means less stress on the little guys so they can provide better fermentation service to us brewers!

 

[joetothemo]

Two possible ways to do a starter:
1. Ferment 18-20 hours to achieve high krausen then pitch entire starter into your wort
2. Let the starter fermenet out ~3-4 days, crash cool in fridge overnight and pour off
the liquid and just pitch the yeast slurry.

I have done both and had good results with both, just depends on when I get the starter going.

I generally use 100gm of DME per Liter of water for my starters.

I make a minimum of 1L starters, it is very difficult to "overpitch" a homebrew batch so in reality the more the better! More yeast means less stress on the little guys so they can provide better fermentation service to us brewers!

"Thumbs up!"

 

[TTB-J]

Hmmm, I was under the impression normal starters took 3ish days. thats why I assumed this thread was going to be about a mini starter.

using the mrmalty calc, I put 1.055 OG and 5 gallons of Wort.

It says I need 1.79 Liters of starter, isn't that a bit much? like will the yeast go through that in 20 hours?

Yes, normal starters can take 3 days, but an overnight starter will work as well and will increase your yeast cell count above what you'd be pitching if you went straight from the smack pack. Remember, with a starter your yeast will have lots of oxygen available, will be shaken intermittenly or stirred to keep as much as possible in suspension, and will be at room temperature - so the yeast will start working quickly and could very well eat up the majority of sugars in a standard starter within 24 hours. Either way, you'll have yeast that is active and reproducing when it is pitched, so it will have a head start when pitched.

A good rule of thumb is that to make 1.040 starter, you want to use a ratio of 10:1 - for every 10 mL of your starter, include 1 gram of DME. Thus, for a 1.79 liter starter, you would have 179 grams of DME. Definitely go with what Mr. Malty is telling you - but I would select the intermittent shaking option if you didn't, all that means is that you give it a vigorous swirl every time you walk by the starter. That may reduce the size of your starter a bit to the 1.5 liter range. Good luck!

 

[unionrdr]

I honestly think 4-8C starters are just going too far. The way I did it for 3.5 hours it took to brew the ale & pitch was more than enough at OG 1.044 to try & blow it's cork in less than 12 hours. I know what these "experts" say,but I like to experiment to see what's really true,vs what is perceived to be true. But,as I've said many times,do what works for you. No worries,m8.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Yes, normal starters can take 3 days, but an overnight starter will work as well and will increase your yeast cell count above what you'd be pitching if you went straight from the smack pack. Remember, with a starter your yeast will have lots of oxygen available, will be shaken intermittenly or stirred to keep as much as possible in suspension, and will be at room temperature - so the yeast will start working quickly and could very well eat up the majority of sugars in a standard starter within 24 hours. Either way, you'll have yeast that is active and reproducing when it is pitched, so it will have a head start when pitched.

A good rule of thumb is that to make 1.040 starter, you want to use a ratio of 10:1 - for every 10 mL of your starter, include 1 gram of DME. Thus, for a 1.79 liter starter, you would have 179 grams of DME. Definitely go with what Mr. Malty is telling you - but I would select the intermittent shaking option if you didn't, all that means is that you give it a vigorous swirl every time you walk by the starter. That may reduce the size of your starter a bit to the 1.5 liter range. Good luck!

Thank you very much for that explanation. You went above and beyond!

I had "simple starter" selected when it said 1.79 liters. If I change it to "intermittent shaking" it goes all the way down to 1.03 liters. That sounds too low now (my views have 180'd lol)

 

[kyle6286]

It's confusing with all different websites telling you to use conflicting amounts. I've read in Palmer's book to use 2 cups and half cup of dme. With intermittent shaking, Mr maltys is telling me to use 1 liter. I guess I'll follow that and just hope it works well with my smackpack. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[unionrdr]

It's confusing with all different websites telling you to use conflicting amounts. I've read in Palmer's book to use 2 cups and half cup of dme. With intermittent shaking, Mr maltys is telling me to use 1 liter. I guess I'll follow that and just hope it works well with my smackpack. Thanks for everyone's help.

2 cups equals 1/2L,with 1/2C of DME puts him in my camp. I proved that it's more than enough for average gravity brews. Like one up to,say,1.050. 1L is overkill. Period.

 

[TTB-J]

Thank you very much for that explanation. You went above and beyond!

I had "simple starter" selected when it said 1.79 liters. If I change it to "intermittent shaking" it goes all the way down to 1.03 liters. That sounds too low now (my views have 180'd lol)

Also make sure the yeast viability date is correct - the yeast will lose a little viability the further it is removed from the lab, so after delivery and buying it and bringing it back to your house, it could be a week or two old (which is pretty amazing!). The Mr. Malty calculator assumes that the yeast you're using basically came straight from the lab, so you'll have to follow the instructions to actually lock in the right viability date. As you can imagine, the lower the viability of the yeast, the bigger the starter you will need to get to the right cell count.

 

[kyle6286]

Ok, I'll use 2 cups then. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Ok, I'll use 2 cups then. Thanks for clarifying.

The more important thing from what I have read is that the starter wort is around 1.04 OG. Seems to be the unanimous ideal OG for growing your starter. you can always take a hydro reading to see where you are.

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Also make sure the yeast viability date is correct - the yeast will lose a little viability the further it is removed from the lab, so after delivery and buying it and bringing it back to your house, it could be a week or two old (which is pretty amazing!). The Mr. Malty calculator assumes that the yeast you're using basically came straight from the lab, so you'll have to follow the instructions to actually lock in the right viability date. As you can imagine, the lower the viability of the yeast, the bigger the starter you will need to get to the right cell count.

ahh, now I see the option on the MrMalty calc, pretty well thought out application. I'm surprised it doesn't give you the option to say how many yeast cells are in your liquid yeast vial. Wyeast and Whitelabs have different sizes (e.g. activator vs propagator.)

 

[unionrdr]

You don't absolutely need a giant starter with older yeast. The one I used,as stated,was from 2009. 3.5 hours in a 1 1/2C starter was more than enough to try & blow the fermenter apart in less than 12 hours. It's yeast count more than amount of liquid in my experiments.

 

[TTB-J]

2 cups equals 1/2L,with 1/2C of DME puts him in my camp. I proved that it's more than enough for average gravity brews. Like one up to,say,1.050. 1L is overkill. Period.

A 1L starter is by no means overkill for a 1.050 batch! 1 gallon would be overkill, but 1L is a perfectly good size for such a batch. No offense, but I think we should take Jamil Zainasheff's suggestion for pitching rates over yours.

 

[unionrdr]

Some of us have proven some of those "experts" wrong already. Why do you think there books,etc change? Because what they thought was true,wasn't. Like using a secondary. I don't give a damn WHAT they say. What I said is the God's honest truth from my own experiences. Not what Mr wizard tells me to do,or some mathematical genius. We all need a little help now & then,but don't even call me a liar,or a fool. I went to college too. So freaking what...

 

[TinyBubblesDub]

Some of us have proven some of those "experts" wrong already. Why do you think there books,etc change? Because what they thought was true,wasn't. Like using a secondary. I don't give a damn WHAT they say. What I said is the God's honest truth from my own experiences. Not what Mr wizard tells me to do,or some mathematical genius. We all need a little help now & then,but don't even call me a liar,or a fool. I went to college too. So freaking what...

I have no idea who is right in the argument of 1 liter starter vs 1/2 liter. Or even about whether to use a secondary (I do btw, but the main reason is to clear up my fermenter so I can use it again)

but you sound ridiculous when you say "don't even (ever?) call me a liar or a fool"

Who called you a liar or a fool? he said that he takes experts suggestions over yours. that implies neither.

 

[TTB-J]

Some of us have proven some of those "experts" wrong already. Why do you think there books,etc change? Because what they thought was true,wasn't. Like using a secondary. I don't give a damn WHAT they say. What I said is the God's honest truth from my own experiences. Not what Mr wizard tells me to do,or some mathematical genius. We all need a little help now & then,but don't even call me a liar,or a fool. I went to college too. So freaking what...

I certainly did not mean to offend you or question your intelligence. The simple fact of the matter is that the Mr. Malty calculator is a valuable tool that represents the knowledge and experience of the man that literally wrote the book on yeast:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381969/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I simply do not think it is a good idea to consider his methods "disproven" because you've had some success with a few batches of a smaller starter. Both may work just fine, I'm simply saying that, given his experience and knowledge, I would suggest to any beginner that they try his way first and then experiment from there.