Maybe a Gas leak?

[Michele Craft]

So... Got the 4 tap kegerator up and running just before memorial day with only 3 kegs. Poured a beer this past Friday with no problems. Earlier in the week, I had kicked the one sixtle that we immediately untapped and pulled out after we shut off that output on the manifold. So far we've gone thru a full sixtel, half of another sixtel and about 1/3 of a quarter keg. Today we went to dismantle it to move it to the basement in its permanent home and I didn't think to look at the co2 regulators (5lb tank) before I untapped the 2 remaining kegs. Just looked now thinking that since I shut off the co2 lines on the manifolds before untapping each keg (we have 2 3 port manifolds and a dual body regulator so 3 gauge, tank, and 2 output regulators) we should be fine but I never shut off the tank and I'm reading zero on the tank gauge.

I thought shutting off the outputs at the manifolds would be enough but maybe not? We didn't hear anything either today or when we untapped the first kicked leg (which again, happened before my pour on Friday) but.... Or is it more likely I have a leak somewhere? It must be a darn slow leak since it's been fine for 3 weeks and in 4 days is done? All ball lock posts on the keg side and again, all manifold outputs were off before untapping.

Also I sprayed all connections with star San in setup thinking I'd avoid leaks

 

[day_trippr]

Manifold shutoffs do exactly what you believe they should do, so all of the things you did not have shut off forms the scope of a leak location - including still-tapped kegs. But, note the leak could be all the way back between the cylinder valve and primary regulator...

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

The thing about a leak is they don't really show up on the regulator, that's due to the way that CO2 is in the tank as a liquid.
The pressure stays up at normal right to the end most of the time. Once it starts to drop on the cylinder side ( high pressure ) that shows tank nearly finished so if you don't notice that change the next thing you see is an empty tank.
Very frustrating a leak, some people on this forum have scales on their tanks to notice this kind of thing.
You can't diagnose your leak site though until you get some more gas. That's the crucial time to find it.

 

[Michele Craft]

Well poo! (I have other explatives like FFS! in my head but we'll keep it friendly). I'll get more gas tomorrow (thankful only a $12 spend) and I guess hook up only on part at a time. I have a lager on at a bit higher pressure and am getting the empty keg replaced tomorrow so those 2 go on the other side at a bit lower pressure. I figure the body of the manifold should be OK so either out or in there and then the connections at the gauge or to tank itself. Could a ball lock stick open when not connected? Nothing seems amiss there and they're the cmb ones so I figure good quality but given the manifold output was off, that'd have to be 2 failures. Also all duotight fittings and lines are shoved in all the way. Is a star San spray the easiest way to check for this when we hook up?

 

[DuncB]

Well just to say I've been there with a leak so sympathise. Mine was a 5 kg cylinder grrr.
I actually took all my gas lines and manifolds etc out and immersed them in water to check as per @day_trippr advice. Trouble is moving the lines can cause leaks when you reinstall. My setup has multiple duotight T in it instead of a manifold as I had a load of them so it is a bit more sensitive, but okay touch wood at present.
If you have duotight push ins then ensure that the line is cut clean and square. Use something narrower than the tube to give yourself an indication of how far the tube should go in and mark the line before pushing it in so you know that you are fully engaged so to speak. Just checked and seems to be about 15mm push in on MFL duotight that screws onto the gas post connector.
If a ball lock was open you'd have a very noticeable leak.
Do check that the posts are onto the kegs tight, I had that issue with a keg drove me mad. Now I retighten the posts at each refill.
Starsan spray said to work well or soapy water, wasn't an option for me with the position of the lines.
I think I'm correct in saying that if the regulator is on the cylinder and just one out line on it if you turn the gas on you will see high pressure gauge go up and the low ( kegs side ) to whatever pressure you set.
Without it being plugged in to the kegerator both dials should stay the same when you turn the cylinder off. If high pressure drops I think that indicates leak between cylinder and reg, if low side drops indicates leak beyond the reg ( but the high side does drop after as high fills low).
So you can build the gas lines adding more parts / lines and identify the problem with this sleuthing ( i think ). Some parts like kegs can be immersed easily and also the connectors on the end of lines. Not so easy when they are connected together though.
I'm sure @day_trippr will correct my logic / knowledge.
Have attached picture of my dry stout on the beer engine ( hand pull ) no gas needed really for this.

That's a proper pint glass by the way.

 

[Michele Craft]

We don't have ball lock kegs, using sankey D couplers onto commercial kegs but with the ball lock posts added to the couplers to make for easier swapping around and always ready in case a friend brings homebrew. I will check to make sure the posts are on the couplers tight tho. Makes me cringe that all was ok for 3 weeks then bam, no gas. I have everything inside the chest freezer so no way to check the gas without lifting the lid. Thinking I'm going to put the filled bottle on the regulator tomorrow and spray that down, then connect to one manifold, spray, then turn on one output line, spray etc and see if I can find it that way. Otherwise, I am tempted to get a cheap analog scale to put the thing on

 

[DuncB]

I think you might need a digital one, or perhaps repurpose the keg scales as they have some alarms i think.
Okay I have some sankeys. The seals for the ball locks I find very good so much less a worry there.
Just be systematic no need to immerse the kegs but you can put the connector attached on gas line into bucket.
When you get the keg filled ask them to reattach the regulator if your system allows and then ask them to check for leaks.
You might be on a swap system, my filler is a bit more personal and he does the fill as I wait.
I'd suspect all wasn't well for 3 weeks a bit like a dripping tap nothing obvious then the ceiling comes down.
I do turn my Beer gas regulator off when not in use as there is a small leak at the reg attach to cylinder which is due to some damage on the cylinder face, very minor so all works well.
Keep us updated.

 

[Michele Craft]

I think you might need a digital one, or perhaps repurpose the keg scales as they have some alarms i think.
Okay I have some sankeys. The seals for the ball locks I find very good so much less a worry there.
Just be systematic no need to immerse the kegs but you can put the connector attached on gas line into bucket.
When you get the keg filled ask them to reattach the regulator if your system allows and then ask them to check for leaks.
You might be on a swap system, my filler is a bit more personal and he does the fill as I wait.
I'd suspect all wasn't well for 3 weeks a bit like a dripping tap nothing obvious then the ceiling comes down.
I do turn my Beer gas regulator off when not in use as there is a small leak at the reg attach to cylinder which is due to some damage on the cylinder face, very minor so all works well.
Keep us updated.

I was thinking analog so that it didn't shut off as most digital do.

Do you mean when I get the co2 bottle filled? I was thinking about unstrapping the regular from the inside of the collar and taking it with the 2 duotight fittings on it to see if they could test somehow (it's a fill while you wait, not a swap) but I didn't know if I could keep the lines on it and have the duotights on the other end that would go to the manifold or if that could cause issues. I mean if the output regulators are closed, then I'd think nothing should be coming out the duotights on the regulators or the other end/manifold side.

 

[bracconiere]

Could a ball lock stick open when not connected?

i just found out my high pressure side of my dual reg loses pressure at 40psi? was wondering where a few ounces went....now i keep the shut off off...just turn it on for burst carbing.

 

[bracconiere]

I am tempted to get a cheap analog scale to put the thing on

you need digital.

acurate to the tenth ounce, and stays on when pluged into a wall socket....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KYA0RC2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and i'd imagine being the read out is on a wire, could rig up something that works if the tank was in the fridge with the kegs? i keep mine outside though, love it!

 

[DuncB]

@bracconiere

Can you enlighten Michele on your scales?

Ahh you beat me to it well done.

 

[DuncB]

@bracconiere
Amazon clearly don't understand how customs clearance works here. Arrive by the 28th !! maybe of july.

 

[bracconiere]

@bracconiere

Can you enlighten Michele on your scales?

Ahh you beat me to it well done.

LOL

 

[bracconiere]

@bracconiere
Amazon clearly don't understand how customs clearance works here. Arrive by the 28th !! maybe of july.

you're closer to china? should be quicker?

 

[DuncB]

The stuff sits on the dock or at the airport for ages awaiting clearance.
I'm still waiting for some Ispindel boards I ordered in the first week of May! Although some glasses only took a fortnight.

 

[IslandLizard]

+1 on the scale @bracconiere pointed out.
It should remain on 24/7, which is important, as a power reset would also reset the tare with the tank on it.

Is the tank on the freezer hump? See if there's enough space to slide that scale underneath. You may need to mount a 1/2" (plastic wood) base on the hump for the scale to stand on firmly.

Make sure your tank valve is either fully open or fully closed. Never in between.
When the valve is all the way open (until you can't turn it anymore) it compresses the inside packing, making a positive seal.

 

[bracconiere]

+1 on the scale @bracconiere pointed out.
It should remain on 24/7, which is important, as a power reset would also reset the tare with the tank on it.

Is the tank on the freezer hump? See if there's enough space to slide that scale underneath. You may need to mount a 1/2" (plastic wood) base on the hump for the scale to stand on firmly.

Make sure your tank valve is either fully open or fully closed. Never in between.
When the valve is all the way open (until you can't turn it anymore) it compresses the inside packing, making a positive seal.

i would say don't tare it, like many scales it's only accurate with a load on it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Another possibility for leaks: Those ball lock adapters on your Sanke coupler, do they have a flat rubber o-ring inside? Make sure they're seated right, and don't have a way to deform or squeeze out.

That whole coupler assemblies with the CMB QDs mounted, are easy to check, just pressurize them and dunk into a small bucket with water (or Starsan).

 

[IslandLizard]

i would say don't tare it, like many scales it's only accurate with a load on it.

Exactly!
It's when power recycles, it will automatically tare to 0 with the tank on it. You don't want that.

 

[Michele Craft]

+1 on the scale @bracconiere pointed out.
It should remain on 24/7, which is important, as a power reset would also reset the tare with the tank on it.

Is the tank on the freezer hump? See if there's enough space to slide that scale underneath. You may need to mount a 1/2" (plastic wood) base on the hump for the scale to stand on firmly.

Make sure your tank valve is either fully open or fully closed. Never in between.
When the valve is all the way open (until you can't turn it anymore) it compresses the inside packing, making a positive seal.

I didn't realize any of the digital scales would stay on but I guess plug in ones make sense, I'm used to battery operated food scales. I'd like not to have another hole in the collar for power but it looks like this might be small enough to slide through where my inkbird probe line goes in.

The tank is on the freezer hump so I'll have to see if I have the height available as our collar isn't that high since the taps are out the top in black iron pipe. I would think with a power reset (even with our auto backup house generator, there's a few seconds before fail over) it would tare because it is getting power back WITH load on it, no?

I can't honestly say if we had the tank valve all the way opened or not, I'm 95% sure we did but...... I guess we'll be darn sure to do that tomorrow when we get more gas.

 

[bracconiere]

Exactly!
It's when power recycles, it will automatically tare to 0 with the tank on it. You don't want that.

strangley i had a temporay power outage when it was 98f inside and my A/C was out....had to lift my tank and press the tare on the scale empty...it's at 33lbs8. someodd ozs and it's an aluminum tank, without a tare weight stamp, but usually there about 25lbs empty, so i think i have like 8 lbs left...at 0.2ozs a day and 2 ozs to purge carb or there about few more months left...."but, knowing is half the battle!"

 

[DuncB]

@IslandLizard

I've been and looked at an empty cylinder I don't see any bit moving to press on the nylon washer and improve the seal.
Or is it just occurring by gas pressure?

 

[bracconiere]

I didn't realize any of the digital scales would stay on but I guess plug in ones make sense, I'm used to battery operated food scales. I'd like not to have another hole in the collar for power but it looks like this might be small enough to slide through where my inkbird probe line goes in.

The tank is on the freezer hump so I'll have to see if I have the height available as our collar isn't that high since the taps are out the top in black iron pipe. I would think with a power reset (even with our auto backup house generator, there's a few seconds before fail over) it would tare because it is getting power back WITH load on it, no?

I can't honestly say if we had the tank valve all the way opened or not, I'm 95% sure we did but...... I guess we'll be darn sure to do that tomorrow when we get more gas.

it uses a USB power cord and adapter.

 

[Michele Craft]

Exactly!
It's when power recycles, it will automatically tare to 0 with the tank on it. You don't want that.

think we were typing at the same time, how do you avoid the auto tare in the case of power failure? other than just going and manually resetting?

Also, I was just looking here:
https://www.kegerators.com/articles/co2-leaks/
And was wondering how places like 7 and 12 could be cause of gas leaks. Isn't that beer side?

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard

I've been and looked at an empty cylinder I don't see any bit moving to press on the nylon washer and improve the seal.
Or is it just occurring by gas pressure?

Are you referring to the nylon washer between the tank nozzle and regulator stem?
That nylon washer remains inside the large nut, mine do. But you can push/screw the nut back and it'll drop out to inspect or replace.

 

[IslandLizard]

And was wondering how places like 7 and 12 could be cause of gas leaks. Isn't that beer side?

Yeah, that's the beer side. If there's leak in that area you'd see beer dripping or pooling. You won't lose gas there, unless the keg is empty.
That's why it's best to disconnect an empty keg (or at least shut the gas off) to avoid that (very small) possibility.

While on topic, those little valves on your gas manifolds... they should be in 90° positions at all time. Either open or closed, never in between.
I did have one valve that leaked when just touching it, I could hear it. I replaced it, it screws right out.

 

[Michele Craft]

Another possibility for leaks: Those ball lock adapters on your Sanke coupler, do they have a flat rubber o-ring inside? Make sure they're seated right, and don't have a way to deform or squeeze out.

That whole coupler assemblies with the CMB QDs mounted, are easy to check, just pressurize them and dunk into a small bucket with water (or Starsan).

Missed responding to your previous post.

Flat rubber o ring yes and they were definitely flat and seated well on assumbly but I'll double check with star San spray and see what bubbles. So pressurize thru the manifold and drop the whole coupler into a bucket?

Yeah, that's the beer side. If there's leak in that area you'd see beer dripping or pooling. You won't lose gas there, unless the keg is empty.
That's why it's best to disconnect an empty keg (or at least shut the gas off) to avoid that (very small) possibility.

While on topic, those little valves on your gas manifolds... they should be in 90° positions at all time. Either open or closed, never in between.
I did have one valve that leaked when just touching it, I could hear it. I replaced it, it screws right out.

Definitely have the manifold shut offs either full on or off, never in between so hopefully we're good there.

 

[DuncB]

Make sure your tank valve is either fully open or fully closed. Never in between.
When the valve is all the way open (until you can't turn it anymore) it compresses the inside packing, making a positive seal.

I was trying to understand what compresses the inside packing, is the nylon washer the packing and its compressed by the gas pressure? I can't see a physical way opening the valve fully puts any compression.
The nut on the regulator tightens the seal between regulator, nylon washer and cylinder I think.

 

[IslandLizard]

Flat rubber o ring yes and they were definitely flat and seated well on assumbly but I'll double check with star San spray and see what bubbles. So pressurize thru the manifold and drop the whole coupler into a bucket?

Yup! That's better than just spraying.

The Sanke couplers are new, aren't they?
Check the 2 rubber rings on the bottom of the Sanke couplers, too.

 

[Michele Craft]

Yup! That's better than just spraying.

The Sanke couplers are new, aren't they?
Check the 2 rubber rings on the bottom of the Sanke couplers, too.

Yep, everything is brand new. Can't say as I've noticed 2 rubber rings on the couplers but I'll have a closer look at everything tomorrow.

 

[IslandLizard]

I was trying to understand what compresses the inside packing, is the nylon washer the packing and its compressed by the gas pressure? I can't see a physical way opening the valve fully puts any compression.

Sorry, the valve packing is inside the valve assembly, the vertical part, toward the top.
It's not visible unless the valve is removed. Don't.do.that!
It's mechanically compressed by the valve stem when it reached the topmost position.

The nut on the regulator tightens the seal between regulator, nylon washer and cylinder I think.

Exactly!
And has nothing to do with the valve stem packing (the vertical part).

 

[DuncB]

Should those Sanke rubber rings have a little silicone lube on them? I have several sankey connector but not done that yet, basically as not used yet.

 

[Michele Craft]

Another question on the topic, for all the screw on (flare?) to push in duotight connectors, we used a wrap of Teflon tape. I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Also how tight do you screw on those duotight? We had a leak initially that you could hear on one of the ports at the regulator when hand tightened so we put a wrench on it but obviously it's plastic so how tight should you really go?

 

[Michele Craft]

It would appear from this that you don't NEED thread tape but it doesn't say do NOT use it so.....
https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=30205

 

[IslandLizard]

Another question on the topic, for all the screw on (flare?) to push in duotight connectors, we used a wrap of Teflon tape. I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Also how tight do you screw on those duotight? We had a leak initially that you could hear on one of the ports at the regulator when hand tightened so we put a wrench on it but obviously it's plastic so how tight should you really go?

That's very much the topic. Overtightening the threaded ends of those those PtC (Push to Connect) fittings can crack them. Duotight especially has more of that cracking tendency than John Guest, reportedly. @day_trippr

Thickening up the threads with a wrap of Teflon tape may exacerbate that problem. The seal is made on the flared surfaces, the threads do not make the seal.

It would be nice to have PtC connectors with a molded-in threaded (female) metal insert extending past the "bottom" where the flare is, similar to the male threads on corny keg QDs, but in female. That could prevent cracking in most cases.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Metal to metal flare needs a little white plastic washer for the seal.
Never use thread tape on the bottle or any flare connection.

 

[Michele Craft]

That's very much the topic. Overtightening the threaded ends of those those PtC (Push to Connect) fittings can crack them. Duotight especially has more of that cracking tendency than John Guest, reportedly. @day_trippr

Thickening up the threads with a wrap of Teflon tape may exacerbate that problem. The seal is made on the flared surfaces, the threads do not make the seal.

It would be nice to have PtC connectors with a molded-in threaded (female) metal insert extending past the "bottom" where the flare is, similar to the male threads on corny keg QDs, but in female. That could prevent cracking in most cases.

Metal to metal flare needs a little white plastic washer for the seal.
Never use thread tape on the bottle or any flare connection.

Well then it appears I need to pull it all apart and take the tape off, do the hand tight/mark/180deg more of a turn as suggested. I do need to move my manifolds up in the collar as getting a wrench on them is difficult due to the inside edge of the chest. We fitted them BEFORE screwing to the collar so it didn't strike me as a problem until this morning when I was removing bottle/regulator and had to disconnect from manifold. I actually DID crack one on the beer side at the coupler so I knew not to go too tight on the rest.

Do they make John Guest for the 8mm EVA line? I thought duotight had a lock on those but I've worked with a bunch of John Guest in the past and would be willing to use them here. I agree, molded in metal threads would be ideal.

Didn't use teflon tape on the bottle to regulator connection but I'll go take it off the rest, at least on the gas side.

I measured this morning and I have JUST enough space for a 3" scale under there as well tho I'm considering building some kind of holder for the tank as with the long dual body regulator on it, it won't stay upright so we have pipe hanging plastic straps around it screwed in to two places in the collar which works ok unless you have to take things apart so I may change that to some thin walled 5" PVC mounted to a 1/2" piece of plywood as I just saw in another thread and I'm not sure how much height that will add.

 

[day_trippr]

What I used:

For QDs, shut-off valves, and other 1/4" MFL connections: John Guest PM4508F4S: Coupler, 1/4" FFL to 5/16" OD
For beer nut size stuff (shanks, Sanke couplers): John Guest PI451015FS: Coupler, 5/8" BSP to 5/16" OD
For flow meters (eg Swissflow SF800 with 3/8" BSPP threads): DMFit AFAB0506C: Coupler, 3/8" BSP to 5/16" OD

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Do they make John Guest for the 8mm EVA line?

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p...flare-5-16-x-1-4-flare?variant=13249974042667Bag of 10 for $28, plus shipping. Free shipping over $89 orders.

RiteBrew used to have those JG fittings, by that name IIRC. But the current image (now) shows Duotight embossed on it.

5/16” = 0.313” = 7.95 mm
Close enough to 8 mm.

 

[IslandLizard]

Should those Sanke rubber rings have a little silicone lube on them? I have several sankey connector but not done that yet, basically as not used yet.

Yes, you should lubricate those exposed outer rings/washers.
When reassembling, lubricate the 3 o-rings around the probe, inside the coupler, too.

Just use only a little, enough to make them slick. You don't want the lube oozing everywhere.