Maximizing my combos with few ingredients

[Hopsacks]

I'm looking for advice for my upcoming order. I have just 5 brews under my belt (BIAB) using only Pilsner malt, Carared and combos of Magnum, EKG and Saaz. I've been using Safale T-58 and Notty yeasts.

Not being able to buy everything I'd like, I'm hoping to maximize the combo possibilties with the least amount of ingredients. So far my preferred brew was an all Pilsner psuedo pale ale using the T-58, Magnum for bittering with Saaz for flavour and a hint of EKG for aroma.

Pilsner malt is the cheapest where I am (continental Europe). Maris Otter is almost double that price, so that's out. I like to brew pale ale styles. Specifically I'd like to brew an English ale, an American and a Belgian.

Here's what I cobbled together based on my budget, please tell me what improvements I could make...

Big bag of Pilsner (because it's cheap and I liked it on its own even as a psuedo ale)
Small amount of Biscuit (to bring some bready/biscuitness for an English style?)
Small amount of Munich or Vienna (Undecided. I've seen these malts in Belgian recipes but I didn't want to order both)
Some flaked wheat for head retention (or should I get Carapils? Are either needed at all? My head retention has not been great thus far)
Small amount of Belgian pale ale malt (to try something affordable that isn't Pilsner)

Is it silly to think I can brew my preferred styles with only the grains above? I am blessed with a palate which isn't too fussy, although I do slightly favour hoppier styles (not complete bombs) over malty, overly rich sweetness, which I find can get too sickly/syrupy.

I could perhaps take a big bag of the Belgian pale ale malt instead of the Pilsner since it's not too much more expensive. Would that go with the above choices? Would it be better to ditch the Pilsner, the biscuit and the Munich/Vienna and just replace it all with Belgian Pale ale malt? It'd shave off some coinage for sure. Is it madness to not have any caramel at all? I do have some Carared but not a lot and my preferred brew didn't have any of it.

Hops: I love Saaz, more so than the EKG which is still nice though. I need an extra 300g/11 oz or so of hops in total (I do small batches) and since I can get packets of 100g I thought I'd add 3 new hops.

I require a bittering hop since I don't have enough Magnum, but I'd also like flavouring/aroma hops which I could combine with the Saaz and EKG I have to make the 3 styles. I thought maybe Cascade to try something American. I read Hallertau Mittelfrüh may combine with Cascade and perhaps I could use it in a Belgian, but the site I order from doesn't have Mittelfrüh. Would Tettnanger be ok?

Challenger seems interesting as a bittering/dual hop that I could add to an English style and maybe combine with Cascade. Is it reasonable also to use it as a bittering hop in all these styles? Should I stick to Magnum in everything or try Target perhaps?

Do any of the above hops clash with my Saaz and EKG? Are they too similar to be interesting? I'm hoping to make as many combos as possible, but ones that work.

Yeasts: I liked the T-58 a lot, interesting and tasty. I think Notty left my beer a bit bare and since my grain bills have been so simple those beers were a bit ordinary with just Pilsner malt alone. Will this change with the above grains?

I was planning 3 different yeasts for comparisons, again still for the aforementioned styles. These yeasts also happen to be among the very best priced I can get.

Safale S-33
S-04
S-05

Does this make sense? I thought I'd try the S-33 instead of the T-58 for comparison. Will the other 2 yeasts leave my American and English styles too bare-boned given the limited grain and hop choices?

Ideally I'd need roughly 9 packets of yeast but I'll be damned if I won't try to do a bit of washing instead. In US currency the difference for me between 3 packets and 9 is close to 20 euros (over 20 bucks). Is it folly to not order more? Would two packets of each of the above yeasts be wiser? I can't buy yeast locally (unless it's for wine) and totally rely on websites where the delivery costs are kinda pricey.

I'd appreciate any comments, ideas, etc.

 

[chickypad]

If you're going to be making mostly pale ales I'd go with the pale ale malt. I certainly wouldn't call it madness to leave out the crystal, though you can get some variety that way. I think you'd like Vienna - it adds a nice character without being sweet, at least to my tastes. I use it much more commonly than Munich which I find a bit too malty for me in pale styles.

I'd get the cheapest high AA hops you can to bitter everything. Neutral American yeast is great for letting the hops shine, but if you want an APA you're going to have to splurge on some other hops as the EKG and Saaz aren't going do it. Nice hops, but IMO too delicate for an APA. Not that you have to stick to style, but it's not going to be a typical APA without the characteristic hop character. I'd definitely try washing yeast, it can really cut down on your costs.
Good luck with it

 

[Build]

Salut! If you want to brew American and British ale styles I would buy the Belgian or German pale ale malt. I use German Avangard pale ale malt for most of my brews now.

Magnum and northern brewer are good, cost effective choices for bittering and more. Tradition, taurus, opal, and perle are other possibilities available in Europe. Tettnanger is very saaz like. Cascade is a good choice for an APA or IPA, Centennial is a stronger version but very similar to Cascade. For simplicity the 7 C's hops make good American ales. That's a combo of Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra, Cluster, Columbus and Crystal. Search for Falconer's Flight 7 C's.

For ales s04 and s05 are a good base. Nottingham also for English styles wanting more clean and dry. You can pitch a new beer directly on the old cake if it's higher gravity than the previous, but washing will let you have more batches and you can brew any gravity. I get six or more 5 gallon batches out of a single pack of s05.

Good luck and please share ideas what you're brewing. From time to time I've been wanting to try ingredients that are only easily available in Europe. Such is life.

 

[Hopsacks]

Thanks very much for the help. I think I'll go for the Vienna and the Belgian pale ale malt. The Belgian is less expensive than the German for me. I think I'll go with the S-04, S-05 and a Belgian strain of yeast.

The hops are more complicated! Is Tettnanger so much similar to Saaz? I think I'll stick with Cascade for the American, although Falconer's Flight seems interesting, I'll look into that more before I decide. I'd love to get lots of American hops but it's just one for now.

I'm still struggling with the European hop and English Hop choices! Maybe Perle and Challenger? I suppose Magnum is the safe option for bittering really. How versatile is Perle?

 

[FatDragon]

Vienna's a great grain. It's a nice accent to a beer when used in small quantities or you can make a fantastic beer with 100% Vienna. You won't be disappointed. If it's affordable for you as a base malt, a Vienna-Cascade SMaSH with US-05 makes a great APA.

 

[chickypad]

Perle is a nice hop. I use it in wheat beers and sometimes in other beers where I would usually use a noble hop - like lagers or Belgians. I've used it in browns and porters as well. It's a decent dual purpose hop as it's not usually as low AA as noble hops. Haven't used challenger, EKG is my go to English hop.

 

[Build]

Thanks very much for the help. I think I'll go for the Vienna and the Belgian pale ale malt. The Belgian is less expensive than the German for me. I think I'll go with the S-04, S-05 and a Belgian strain of yeast.

The hops are more complicated! Is Tettnanger so much similar to Saaz? I think I'll stick with Cascade for the American, although Falconer's Flight seems interesting, I'll look into that more before I decide. I'd love to get lots of American hops but it's just one for now.

I'm still struggling with the European hop and English Hop choices! Maybe Perle and Challenger? I suppose Magnum is the safe option for bittering really. How versatile is Perle?

Cascade is a great choice for all American styles and works great at anytime in the brew. FatDragon is 100% correct, Vienna and Cascade are great together. The Belgian pale ale is a wonderful choice for the base. To me Tettnanger seems a lot like Saaz, but I only brew ales, so it's probably different when they're used in lagers which they are a lot.