Mash Salts vs. Kettle Salts

[SilverZero]

Up until now I've been adding my entire salt addition (calculated with the EZ Water spreadsheet - basically just gypsum, epsom, and CaCl2) to my kettle as I'm heating my strike water. I see a lot left in the bottom because they are not very soluble, but I have done a little swirl and scoop and gotten most of them in to the mash tun. But I haven't been happy with the beer, so I revisited my balances and I'm doing an overhaul on how I decide what levels of what to add, especially shooting for higher SO4 levels to get some bitterness elevation.

To avoid the solubility issue, I'm going to start adding my salts directly to the mash tun. But before I do, my question is: Does it benefit the mash to have those salts in there? I've been using them to get the pH down, but I COULD just use acid to get the pH where I want it in the mash, and then add all of my salts to the kettle. Do salts get left behind in the mash tun as they do in my HLT? I use one kettle to heat water, so I have to do everything in batches (strike and sparge water are adjusted separately).

So, should I add the salts to the mash tun (split proportionally between the mash and sparge) and let that double as my pH adjustment, or should I adjust the mash alone and add the salts to the kettle for the boil? And if so, where do I go to nail down the ppm's I want in the boil?

 

[duboman]

Well, first off, do you actually have a base water profile of your source to work off of? Personally I prefer Bru'n Water for water modification and Martin is a forum member so both he and AJ are usually around to help out!

If you don't have an actual water report you are basically operating blind on your additions. If you post your report the water science guys will most certainly chime in and help you out. Bru'n water has a great primer with it and so does this site in the stickies under brewing science forum

Some grain bills will require both mash and sparge additions epending on profile and style and grist as well as actual water. I make additions to the strike water and the sparge water as necessary and really don't have problems with solubility.

 

[LovesIPA]

I add my salts to the strike water and sparge water. It does require a little bit of stirring but, especially when the water is hot, they dissolve without too much extra encouragement in my experience.

I use Bru'n'Water. It's a little intimidating but it does come with clear directions on one page of the worksheet. I highly recommend it.

Your question about whether the salts remain in the mash isn't irrelevant. You are only approximately re-creating a water profile to brew a particular style. If salts get left behind in the mash, then it will happen in your mash tun just as it did in the brewer's mash tun who pioneered the style a decade ago or 500 years ago.

Once you have the water profile you need, just brew and forget about it.

 

[SilverZero]

Well, first off, do you actually have a base water profile of your source to work off of?

I've been operating on the info I found online about my local water, but I haven't obtained my own report so if it's changing I don't know about it. It's so soft that I haven't worried about it too much:

Ca 6
Mg 4
SO4 <1
Na 8
Cl 2
CaCO3 32
HCO3 51
Total Alkalinity CaCO3 42

Based on my last round of research, I'm aiming for an SO4 concentration of 300ppm or just below, and a Cl/SO4 ratio of .12-.13. This is for an IPA.

Your question about whether the salts remain in the mash isn't irrelevant. You are only approximately re-creating a water profile to brew a particular style. If salts get left behind in the mash, then it will happen in your mash tun just as it did in the brewer's mash tun who pioneered the style a decade ago or 500 years ago.

I'll assume you meant to say "isn't relevant." But that's where I'm curious about what people "mean" when they say that a certain concentration of [some brewing salt] will produce [some affect on flavor] - does this mean a concentration in the mash? In the boil? In the final product?

I understand that matching a water profile from historical data or geographic region comes down to matching the original water, but that's not what I'm asking. I don't care about the water in Dublin or Denver, I want to build water that will give me a good product for my system. Even saying my water is the same as all the great Bend breweries isn't really true, because they all build their own water in-house anyway.

But I mainly just want to know what the convention is so I know how to read it when somebody says "shoot for X ppm of sulfate" - in the mash, kettle, or what? I've heard of people adding salts to their strike water, then leaving some behind. I've heard of people adding them to the mash tun. I've heard of people adding salts directly to the kettle. All of these will result in something different, right? If I calculate 300ppm of SO4 in the kettle and it was meant to be in the strike water, I could be much higher than I want to be. I realize there's a lot of personal taste involved in this, but I like to get it right early on instead of going back to the drawing board too many times.

I have seen the Bru'n sheet but every time I look at it I just go back to the EZ sheet because it's . . . easier. I'll keep trying both of them to see which suits me best.

Thanks for the replies!

 

[LovesIPA]

I'll assume you meant to say "isn't relevant."

Yes I meant isn't relevant.

But I mainly just want to know what the convention is so I know how to read it when somebody says "shoot for X ppm of sulfate" - in the mash, kettle, or what? I've heard of people adding salts to their strike water, then leaving some behind. I've heard of people adding them to the mash tun. I've heard of people adding salts directly to the kettle. All of these will result in something different, right? If I calculate 300ppm of SO4 in the kettle and it was meant to be in the strike water, I could be much higher than I want to be. I realize there's a lot of personal taste involved in this, but I like to get it right early on instead of going back to the drawing board too many times.

You're overthinking it. It simply refers to the concentration in the water you use to brew. This is why I said to just add the minerals to the strike and sparge water and don't worry about the rest.

Don't worry about ion concentrations in the mash tun or the kettle. The malt adds a lot of its own minerals to the wort anyway. For example, zinc is a key element for yeast health - but you don't add any to the mash. It comes from the malt.

 

[SilverZero]

I do tend to overthink sometimes. Thanks for the advice, I'll go with it and see how it comes out.

 

[biertourist]

Personally, I agree with your line of thinking 100%.

Salt additions in the mash are to get the mash ph correct. After that if you want to make salt additions for FLAVOR purposes, the boil kettle is a great place to go.

-Start small and see what you get.


Adam

 

[Natdavis777]

Personally, I agree with your line of thinking 100%.

Salt additions in the mash are to get the mash ph correct. After that if you want to make salt additions for FLAVOR purposes, the boil kettle is a great place to go.

-Start small and see what you get.


Adam

That is the method I have settled with. I use either 100% RO or a dilution of RO and tap. Using Bru'n water, after I get my minerals to the desired profile I want and the mash ph locked in, I add my first addition to the MLT while doughing in (to hit my correct ph), and the "sparge" addition to the boil kettle. It's worked great for my beers and I haven't looked back since


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Roadie]

I use the EZ Spreadsheet as well. The salts are supposed to go in the mash unless you check the sparge box then the initial salts go in the mash and the sparge salts go into the boil.

 

[SilverZero]

So I guess what I'm grappling with now is, why not just use acid to get the mash pH where it needs to be and then add all of my salts to the kettle? I have heard that calcium is beneficial as an enzyme co-factor in the mash (around 50ppm minimum), but beyond that is there any reason to put salts in the mash?

But I also don't want to OVERdose my kettle with 300ppm of SO4 and whatever the other ions end up being. I have no problem calculating the amount needed to get a certain concentration, but I still don't have any solid advice on what the levels should be in the kettle.

 

[orangehero]

You're confusing the function of the brewing salts. You use a liquid acid or acid malt to control mash pH, not the salts. While calcium salts lower pH to some degree through precipitation of phosphates, the effect is very slight.

With the salts, as long as you have the minimum recommended calcium you don't have to do anything (and really the minimum is a loose term). Beyond that, the main reason they are used for is to contribute flavor ions...sulfate, chloride, and to a lesser extent magnesium and sodium.

I suppose it's generally recommended to add everything to the brewing liquor for convenience.

A lot of new brewers get caught up with the salt additions, burtonization, etc. If you read the brewing water for beginners sticky you will see the emphasis is on the use of acid malt.

You won't find solid advice on flavor ion levels, because there is no solid advice. Although the ratio of chloride to sulfate plays some role, the absolute levels of each ion are also important. The rule of thumb is to accentuate maltiness and soft roundedness you want a moderate level of chloride and not much sulfate. To accent hops and bitterness you want to up the sulfate. Where you think the relative levels of those ions tastes good is something you need to figure out for yourself. You can also play with adding the salts to your finished beer to see what effects it has.

 

[SilverZero]

You're confusing the function of the brewing salts. You use a liquid acid or acid malt to control mash pH, not the salts. While calcium salts lower pH to some degree through precipitation of phosphates, the effect is very slight.

With the salts, as long as you have the minimum recommended calcium you don't have to do anything (and really the minimum is a loose term). Beyond that, the main reason they are used for is to contribute flavor ions...sulfate, chloride, and to a lesser extent magnesium and sodium.

I suppose it's generally recommended to add everything to the brewing liquor for convenience.

A lot of new brewers get caught up with the salt additions, burtonization, etc. If you read the brewing water for beginners sticky you will see the emphasis is on the use of acid malt.

You won't find solid advice on flavor ion levels, because there is no solid advice. Although the ratio of chloride to sulfate plays some role, the absolute levels of each ion are also important. The rule of thumb is to accentuate maltiness and soft roundedness you want a moderate level of chloride and not much sulfate. To accent hops and bitterness you want to up the sulfate. Where you think the relative levels of those ions tastes good is something you need to figure out for yourself. You can also play with adding the salts to your finished beer to see what effects it has.

I don't think I'm confusing the function of the salts - in fact, I think I'm approaching this with exactly the understanding that you're talking about. Salts are for flavor, so why is conventional wisdom that they go in the mash? I guess that only applies if you're trying to match a regional water profile, which I'm not. Or maybe I'm just reading into what others have said. But most people do add salts to the mash, as I understand it. Maybe I've just inferred that.

If you look back at what I've said all along, I think you'll see that I get the way ions should be used (for flavor) and that the absolute values are important. Those are the numbers I'm after. It sounds like they don't exist.

Your comment that there is no solid advice is what I have also concluded. I'll have to do my own research to get what I want to know. If I do, I'll bring it back here.

At one brew per month as a hobby when the budget allows, it's hard to put all those hops (and hours) into a ten gallon brew just for testing purposes, although I know it will be good regardless. I'm just going for great.

 

[mabrungard]

There are minor reasons why you should include at least 40 ppm calcium in your mashing water. That level should be sufficient to react with oxalate from the grain and remove that compound from the wort. Calcium oxalate is a component of beerstone. So adding a portion of the calcium salts to create a Ca level of at least 40 ppm is a good idea since then the calcium oxalate is left in the tun and not in the kettle.

Beyond that requirement, Ca is not necessary in brewing. We should all recognize that malt supplies all the Ca and Mg that yeast need for proper fermentation. You CAN brew successfully without adding any Ca or Mg to your brewing water. The Ca and Mg supplied by the malt is enough to provide for the enzymes. There is another thing that Ca provides is a degree of heat-resistance to the malt enzymes for denaturing. That protection is well documented, but it takes a very high Ca content (like 300 to 400 ppm) in the water to produce a significant heat protective effect. Therefore, it is not worth mentioning that Ca protects malt enzymes at the relatively minor Ca concentrations we typically use in brewing.

The final use for Ca in brewing is its help in getting yeast to flocculate and the beer to clear. Having a decent Ca content of about 50 ppm for ale brewing is a good goal for producing ales that clear in a reasonable amount of time. When brewing a lager, you DON'T need any Ca in the water since the lagering process will eventually clear the beer. If you filter your beer, you again don't need Ca in your brewing water.

So, calcium is NOT a requirement for brewing water. But it can be an asset. I apologize to the brewing community for not pointing this out before the Water book came out. I only performed the research on this subject in the last 6 months. The sad thing was that this information was easily available in a multitude of research publications and no one had put 1 and 1 together before. For those of you that are Brewers Association members, you can read the research article on Calcium and Magnesium requirements in Brewing Water published in The New Brewer in the Jul/Aug 2014 issue.

Enjoy!

 

[gandelf]

There are minor reasons why you should include at least 40 ppm calcium in your mashing water. That level should be sufficient to react with oxalate from the grain and remove that compound from the wort. Calcium oxalate is a component of beerstone. So adding a portion of the calcium salts to create a Ca level of at least 40 ppm is a good idea since then the calcium oxalate is left in the tun and not in the kettle.

Beyond that requirement, Ca is not necessary in brewing. We should all recognize that malt supplies all the Ca and Mg that yeast need for proper fermentation. You CAN brew successfully without adding any Ca or Mg to your brewing water. The Ca and Mg supplied by the malt is enough to provide for the enzymes. There is another thing that Ca provides is a degree of heat-resistance to the malt enzymes for denaturing. That protection is well documented, but it takes a very high Ca content (like 300 to 400 ppm) in the water to produce a significant heat protective effect. Therefore, it is not worth mentioning that Ca protects malt enzymes at the relatively minor Ca concentrations we typically use in brewing.

The final use for Ca in brewing is its help in getting yeast to flocculate and the beer to clear. Having a decent Ca content of about 50 ppm for ale brewing is a good goal for producing ales that clear in a reasonable amount of time. When brewing a lager, you DON'T need any Ca in the water since the lagering process will eventually clear the beer. If you filter your beer, you again don't need Ca in your brewing water.

So, calcium is NOT a requirement for brewing water. But it can be an asset. I apologize to the brewing community for not pointing this out before the Water book came out. I only performed the research on this subject in the last 6 months. The sad thing was that this information was easily available in a multitude of research publications and no one had put 1 and 1 together before. For those of you that are Brewers Association members, you can read the research article on Calcium and Magnesium requirements in Brewing Water published in The New Brewer in the Jul/Aug 2014 issue.

Enjoy!

So what you are saying is basically 50 mg calcium plus the acid in the mash and the rest in the kettle?

 

[ajdelange]

The sad thing was that this information was easily available in a multitude of research publications and no one had put 1 and 1 together before.

And also in most brewing texts as a consequence of which it was, I always thought, widely understood. Everyone knew Pilsner Urquell produced world class beers and everyone knew Plzen water is extremely soft. Same for Ceske Budejovice. Obviously you don't need hard water to brew good beers. I and many others have been screaming this for years. The need for at least 50 ppm Ca++ (as the ion) is what they used to call on HBD a 'momily' (I don't know why) which is something that is commonly and persistently held to be true even though it isn't. Some others were that dark beers require lots of chalk and that one must set a certain chloride to sulfate ratio.

 

[SilverZero]

So what you are saying is basically 50 mg calcium plus the acid in the mash and the rest in the kettle?

That's how I'm going to brew my next IPA. I'll add a bit of Ca to the mash (even if it's not necessary, I'll shoot for 50ppm in my strike water) and use acid to hit my pH in the mash. Then I'll add SO4 and a bit of Cl to the boil to get the flavor I want. I'm anticipating a few trials to get the levels right as I can't find any info on what the ion levels should be in the kettle.

 

[gandelf]

That's how I'm going to brew my next IPA. I'll add a bit of Ca to the mash (even if it's not necessary, I'll shoot for 50ppm in my strike water) and use acid to hit my pH in the mash. Then I'll add SO4 and a bit of Cl to the boil to get the flavor I want. I'm anticipating a few trials to get the levels right as I can't find any info on what the ion levels should be in the kettle.

My well water is "chewy". I have been adjusting it for a long time now. For a few years now I have been throwing all the calcium and acid into the mash to reduce the amount of acid bellow my taste threshold. I also calculate the theatrical percentage of flavor additions not absorbed by the grain and have been throwing that into the kettle. This has been working great for me and I have found that ~200 mg SO4 for my tastes is the sweet spot. For some reason, I can't taste any difference between no chloride and the recommended quantities. So, I put some in for the people I share my beer with; maybe they can? For me, if I can't taste a difference? Less futzing is trump!

PS
Too much screaming and nobody listens.

 

[ajdelange]

I also calculate the theatrical percentage of flavor additions not absorbed by the grain..

Ah. A brewer and a thespian!

I can't taste any difference between no chloride and the recommended quantities.

No guarantee as to what you will conclude but you can try pouring yourself a glass of beer, tasting it, adding some chloride, in the form of table salt or calcium chloride and tasting it again. Calcium chloride is probably better as if you over do it with sodium chloride the effect will be a salty taste. Many brewers use this technique to see if their beer will be improved by additional chloride. Peoples palates are very different. You may notice no taste change at all.

 

[Afri]

I add my salts to the strike water and sparge water. It does require a little bit of stirring but, especially when the water is hot, they dissolve without too much extra encouragement in my experience.

I use Bru'n'Water. It's a little intimidating but it does come with clear directions on one page of the worksheet. I highly recommend it.

Your question about whether the salts remain in the mash isn't irrelevant. You are only approximately re-creating a water profile to brew a particular style. If salts get left behind in the mash, then it will happen in your mash tun just as it did in the brewer's mash tun who pioneered the style a decade ago or 500 years ago.

Once you have the water profile you need, just brew and forget about it.

before no one give a **** they used what they had wheat corn water fruit sugar wild yeast done