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trbig said:
Just because wiki linked it to the chemical lime doesn't mean that's what was used, only that wiki has a definition for lime. BUT.. that doesn't mean it DOESN'T mean the chemical lime as well.. :confused:

As to your mold... I'd just let it go and see what happens. What have you got to lose, unlesss you're on some kind of time schedule to have some wine for some event? I got my first batch of mold on this last batch I tried. I've just let it go. I've still got liquid in it, but not nearly as much as the batch next to it that I did at the same time. Those batches are at 28 days tomorrow and I'll probably harvest, but they're still fermenting and bubbling out the airlock.. but maybe only once every ten seconds or so.
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True, the wiki link doesn't make it certain that it's the mineral lime, but it seems pretty likely that's the case, since it said "lime" instead of "lime juice" or "limes" or something like that. Just pointing that out since the discussion seemed to be focused on the citrus fruit without recognizing the other possibility.

Off the aside - the main reason I'm a bit more worried than you might be about a fungal infection on my rice wine is that this is my first time fermenting anything, so I really want it to work (same for the ale I'll be brewing tomorrow). My hope is that someone will have had a similar or identical experience and have a good, solid answer for a new home brewer. When you harvest, I'd love to hear how the moldy batch comes out. If I don't get any answers, I'll probably dump two of them and leave one as an experiment, then Starsan the vessels and new cheesecloth (just boiled everything the first time - brew kit hadn't arrived so I didn't have any sanitizer) and start those two again while I'm waiting for my wort water to start boiling.
 
Yeah, I think I'll go ahead and harvest at least my moldy batch tonight and see what it's like. The mold started off with a vengeance, but has kind of died back. I'm guessing the lack of oxygen didn't do it well, but it looks pretty ugly and changed the color of the rice it was in contact with. I'll post some pics tonight if I survive the taste test. ;)
 
I would not dump the rice with the black fruiting bodies. If you search this thread for "black" you will find a number of posts with similar fungus. I believe your environment is proper for the fungus to fruit. Perhaps you have more/less oxygen getting to the fungus or a wetter/drier medium. The fungus fruits and sends spores out when the environmental conditions tell it to.
 
dgr said:
I would not dump the rice with the black fruiting bodies. If you search this thread for "black" you will find a number of posts with similar fungus. I believe your environment is proper for the fungus to fruit. Perhaps you have more/less oxygen getting to the fungus or a wetter/drier medium. The fungus fruits and sends spores out when the environmental conditions tell it to.
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Interesting. Is this the same fungus that is contained in the yeast balls itself, then?
 
FatDragon said:
Interesting. Is this the same fungus that is contained in the yeast balls itself, then?
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??? I made this last batch at the same time using the same yeast balls pitched over the same rice at the same time. Only difference is I put mango in one and wolf berries in the other. The one with wolf berries got mold, the other one didn't.
 
Went ahead and harvested both half gallon jars of wine tonight. I used a package of Wolf Berries in one and a handful of dried mango in the other.









The Wolf Berries one got moldy and didn't produce near as much liquid. A shot at the dead mold on top.









When I opened this up, it smelled really fruity, so I had high hopes. When I went to dump it in my strainer bag.. ugh. A rotten smell hit me. I went ahead and drained it, but it looked less than pleasing...









I went ahead and tasted it and it was quite good, but I couldn't get past that smell. Down the drain it went.

The mango wine came out much better. Probably the best rice wine I've made. I can't really taste much mango, but there's just a smooth sweetness with an alcohol warmth that doesn't catch you until you swallow it. It came out a little more yellow than this pic leads you to believe...









... but my attempt at reading the future says the partial bottle will not survive the evening. After an hour in the fridge, it's already starting to settle out. I prefer it clearer than I do with all the heavies stirred in. I'll probably decanter the clearer wine tomorrow... right after getting some more mango. I'll probably go ahead and try another batch with the Wolf Berries as well, but I think I'll try soaking them in some alcohol first to try and make sure they aren't the source of the mold.
 
Leadgolem said:
Yes it does. I find that a bit odd. I have made fermented limeade.

It's probably used as a pH adjuster. According to this, lime juice usually has a pH of 2-2.35. If you adjust the pH below 5 it does severely slow yeast activity.
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Keep in mind that this is usually fermented by the bacterium Zymomonas Mobilus and not yeast or other fungi. From my cellulosic ethanol experience, the bug prefers a pH of 5.3.
 
trbig said:
Just because wiki linked it to the chemical lime doesn't mean that's what was used, only that wiki has a definition for lime. BUT.. that doesn't mean it DOESN'T mean the chemical lime as well.. :confused:
Click to expand...

FatDragon said:
True, the wiki link doesn't make it certain that it's the mineral lime, but it seems pretty likely that's the case, since it said "lime" instead of "lime juice" or "limes" or something like that. Just pointing that out since the discussion seemed to be focused on the citrus fruit without recognizing the other possibility.

Off the aside - the main reason I'm a bit more worried than you might be about a fungal infection on my rice wine is that this is my first time fermenting anything, so I really want it to work (same for the ale I'll be brewing tomorrow). My hope is that someone will have had a similar or identical experience and have a good, solid answer for a new home brewer. When you harvest, I'd love to hear how the moldy batch comes out. If I don't get any answers, I'll probably dump two of them and leave one as an experiment, then Starsan the vessels and new cheesecloth (just boiled everything the first time - brew kit hadn't arrived so I didn't have any sanitizer) and start those two again while I'm waiting for my wort water to start boiling.
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Interesting, I hadn't considered a mineral rather then a fruit addition.

You can take a look on here if you are really interested, there are a lot of threads discussing how safe home fermentation is. What it basically breaks down to is that there aren't really any pathogens that could both survive in your body and constant exposure to a 4% or higher alcohol solution. The very few that can, will make your brew both smell and taste like gym socks. So, if it smells like gym socks, don't drink it. Other then that, relax.

trbig said:
Went ahead and harvested both half gallon jars of wine tonight. I used a package of Wolf Berries in one and a handful of dried mango in the other.
...
The Wolf Berries one got moldy and didn't produce near as much liquid. A shot at the dead mold on top.
...
When I opened this up, it smelled really fruity, so I had high hopes. When I went to dump it in my strainer bag.. ugh. A rotten smell hit me. I went ahead and drained it, but it looked less than pleasing...
...
I went ahead and tasted it and it was quite good, but I couldn't get past that smell. Down the drain it went.

The mango wine came out much better. Probably the best rice wine I've made. I can't really taste much mango, but there's just a smooth sweetness with an alcohol warmth that doesn't catch you until you swallow it. It came out a little more yellow than this pic leads you to believe...
...
... but my attempt at reading the future says the partial bottle will not survive the evening. After an hour in the fridge, it's already starting to settle out. I prefer it clearer than I do with all the heavies stirred in. I'll probably decanter the clearer wine tomorrow... right after getting some more mango. I'll probably go ahead and try another batch with the Wolf Berries as well, but I think I'll try soaking them in some alcohol first to try and make sure they aren't the source of the mold.
Click to expand...
An interesting experiment. Thank you for the update.

edds5p0 said:
Keep in mind that this is usually fermented by the bacterium Zymomonas Mobilus and not yeast or other fungi. From my cellulosic ethanol experience, the bug prefers a pH of 5.3.
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Interesting, something to tuck into the back of my mind for later I think. I've got a bit to much going on at the moment to pursue that cellulosic ethanol line, or palm wine for that matter.
 
Just starting my first batch. I'm going simple like was done in the start of this thread. I boiled my stuff to keep things simple as far as sanitation goes. While I haven't been able to read through all 289 pages, I'm guessing no one has died following sonofgrok's recipe. Keeping my fingers viruses for my first ever attempt at being anything.

20130921_162724.jpg


20130921_192647.jpg
 
Wow trbig, That's some nasty looking mold you got there and not what I would imagine the black specks reported would look like. Thanks for taking one for the team and tasting it.

Why not throw the goji berries into the rice while it's cooking? That should take care of any spores on them.
 
trbig said:
The Wolf Berries one got moldy and didn't produce near as much liquid. A shot at the dead mold on top.




Click to expand...

That's a lot of mold...

So far, I'm looking at a few spores on each batch, rather than entire colonies. Then again, they've still got three weeks until harvest. My consolation is that my first homebrew should be a week into bottle carbing by the time I harvest the rice wine, so if the rice wine stinks, the beer's still on the horizon.
 
In previous discussion, black mold was attributed to clear jars and too much light. Seemed like the more light these batches got the more black spores they had.
 
dgr said:
Why not throw the goji berries into the rice while it's cooking? That should take care of any spores on them.
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Yeah, I've been re-thinking the whole "Soak in alcohol" thing. I thought that if the dried berries soak up too high a concentration of alcohol, there wouldn't be much of an exchange between wine/berry. Also, the sugars the berries add might not be able to be fermented.

So, my plan was to boil a small amount of water and pour over the berries and let them soak in that before dumping the steamed rice on top of that. I'm worried that microwaving the berries, with all those little seeds, might make a bunch of little bombs going off while cooking. Maybe not... but figure the boiling water will kill anything not wanted anyway.
 
Huh, I almost forgot to do the rice wine experiment update. I've got so much stuff on my personal plate right now I entered everything into the calendar app on my computer. It's a good thing too.

Picture 1 is of the experiment. Picture two is one of another dozen or so things I've been working on. :)

Here are the batch contents.

1. 1.5 cups jasmine rice, 1 gram ARL.
2. 1.5 cups basmati rice, 1 gram ARL.
3. 1.5 cups long grain white rice, 1 gram ARL.
4. 1.5 cups sweet rice, 1 gram ARL.
5. 0.75 cups jasmine rice, 1/2 of a rice yeast ball. Submerged in 22.5% alcohol solution.
6. 0.75 cups jasmine rice, 1/2 of a rice yeast ball, 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. Submerged in 22.5% alcohol solution.

1. Typical conversion rate, this is basically a control in this experiment. Very clean rice wine aroma.
2. Inferior conversion rate. This is slightly odd, in the previous grains experiment basmati rice displayed only a slightly inferior conversion rate. Slightly plummy aroma.
3. As expected, this batch has produced only trace amounts of liquid. Very mild rice wine aroma, strong alcohol aroma.
4. This batch appears to have saccharified more then the others. Very strong rice wine aroma.
5. Some saccharification appears to have occured, the degree is inline with the typical conversion rate for a batch of rice wine at this point. Smells like cooked rice with alcohol solution poured over it.
6. Same as experiment five, slight raisin aroma from the RYR.

It's common for batches with rice yeast balls to have either a fruity or citrusy aroma at this point. I find it interesting that only one of these experiments does, and none of them smell citrusy. Citrus aroma is actually more common in my rice wine batches by far then the plum aroma.

Honestly, I expected the alcohol solution to shut down the saccharification process. It doesn't appear to have. Of course, any observations on the degree of conversion is a bit premature. It's also possible that the starch has simply broken up in the liquid. You never can tell by the appearance how much of the rice starch has really converted to sugar. You only know for sure when you harvest.

DSC_0105.jpg


DSC_0102.jpg
 
First time post. I only felt comfortable posting after reading through the thread. Phew!! I did up a batch. 2kg of polished short grain sushi rice. Water to dry rice ratio was about 1:1.35. cooked in a pressure cooker for 8 minutes (probably too long a time--followed instructions online, but I usually only eat brown rice so I did not have a feel for it). grains are still distinct but not ideal for eating (too gooey)
Crushed 4 of the shanghai jiubingwan (上海酒饼丸) mixed sprinkled and layered in a sanitized food-grade plastic bucket with sanitized cheese cloth and lid loosely covering. in our laundry room with no direct light and a dark cloth loosely covering to ensure minimal light absorption through bucket. probably a pretty constant 71-74F

after 36 hours I am noticing some liquid and hair-like growths, but there also seems to be tiny black fruiting bodies on the fungus, about 10 per square inch of surface area on the top. Should I be concerned? Did not have time to take a picture, but can do so after work.
Thanks and thank you for all the information.
 
Also wanted to let people know that I have a fairly good working knowledge of Chinese so if you have questions with translation or what not I would be happy to help.
 
nvtsky said:
Also wanted to let people know that I have a fairly good working knowledge of Chinese so if you have questions with translation or what not I would be happy to help.
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Likewise here. When I've gone back in the thread I've been really tempted to answer some of those language questions that were posed and never answered, but then I remember they were asked four months ago...
 
so, I have a bit of a question. why are we waiting 3 weeks for the stuff to finish? My wife is from Thailand and I talked to her mom last night and she thinks we're crazy making it sit for 3 weeks. She insists, very adamantly, that one week is more than enough for this wine to get good alcoholic. My wife tried telling me this when I started my batch thIs last weekend, but of course I never listen to her anyway:D

I have tried looking back to the forum but I can't find a real solid reason to let it sit for 3 weeks when the lady from Thailand, who's been doing this for years, says you don't have to.

Any ideas?
 
Mr_Sunshine said:
so, I have a bit of a question. why are we waiting 3 weeks for the stuff to finish? My wife is from Thailand and I talked to her mom last night and she thinks we're crazy making it sit for 3 weeks. She insists, very adamantly, that one week is more than enough for this wine to get good alcoholic. My wife tried telling me this when I started my batch thIs last weekend, but of course I never listen to her anyway:D

I have tried looking back to the forum but I can't find a real solid reason to let it sit for 3 weeks when the lady from Thailand, who's been doing this for years, says you don't have to.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
It's a matter of letting the saccharification proceed. The below pictures were taken at one, two, and three weeks. Some of the samples have visibly continued to convert starch to sugar. Some haven't. I think the type of grain used influences this a lot.

The jasmine rice seems to be about optimal at three weeks. The sweet rice probably could have been harvested at two weeks. I wouldn't personally harvest any of them at one week, not that much of the starch has converted at that point. I also wouldn't let them go to much past 3 weeks with rice yeast balls. They get progressively more tangy as time goes on.

Then again, harvesting at one week would probably produce something a lot sweeter. It just seems to me that it wastes a lot of the rice harvesting that early.

EDIT: It occurs to me that harvesting at 1 week, and 3 weeks is likely to produce something fairly sweet. In the first case because not all the sugar has fermented. In the second, because alcohol production has halted at the yeasts alcohol tolerance, but some additional sugar has been produced. I'll add another experiment to the roster to find out for sure. :)

ricewine6-4oneweek.jpg


ricewine6-5twoweeks.jpg


ricewine6-6preharves.JPG
 
Mr_Sunshine said:
so, I have a bit of a question. why are we waiting 3 weeks for the stuff to finish? My wife is from Thailand and I talked to her mom last night and she thinks we're crazy making it sit for 3 weeks. She insists, very adamantly, that one week is more than enough for this wine to get good alcoholic. My wife tried telling me this when I started my batch thIs last weekend, but of course I never listen to her anyway:D

I have tried looking back to the forum but I can't find a real solid reason to let it sit for 3 weeks when the lady from Thailand, who's been doing this for years, says you don't have to.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Could it be the mean temperature in Thailand is a little bit warmer than we like to keep our houses? Or could it be the dessert that is made with the rice? The rice isn't terribly appetizing looking at week 3. Maybe you could ask your mother in law about the amount of water used when making the Thai version. I seem to recall SonOfGrok talking about a version that was diluted with water at the beginning. Just make sure you ask your mother in law and not your wife. I hear wives like it when you do that. :D

You should listen to her and try it out. Start a batch. In two weeks, start a second. Harvest them both in another week. Depending on results y ou can be smug for a day or have to walk around not making eye contact for a week.

I've never harvested at one week but I see a lot of liquid developing towards the end. My last batches were harvested a few days past three weeks. Both yeast varieties kept fermenting in the bottles. Mmmm, more alcohol.
 
Mr_Sunshine said:
so, I have a bit of a question. why are we waiting 3 weeks for the stuff to finish? My wife is from Thailand and I talked to her mom last night and she thinks we're crazy making it sit for 3 weeks. She insists, very adamantly, that one week is more than enough for this wine to get good alcoholic. My wife tried telling me this when I started my batch thIs last weekend, but of course I never listen to her anyway:D

I have tried looking back to the forum but I can't find a real solid reason to let it sit for 3 weeks when the lady from Thailand, who's been doing this for years, says you don't have to.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

My wife is also from Thailand and my mother in law insists I am crazy for making the stuff at all ;-)

While you COULD get away with harvesting this at 1 week depending on the rice/yeast combo and get alcohol, I think it would be pretty sweet which is not a character I like in my booze. I think you would also be getting less yield as I gain significantly more liquid over the next two weeks. I find that 3 weeks is perfect flavor for my Thai Jasmine batches and offers the best yield.
 
sonofgrok said:
My wife is also from Thailand and my mother in law insists I am crazy for making the stuff at all ;-)QUOTE]

My MIL says the same of me, but it was her stuff that got me sh*tfaced last time we went.

She made hers with the sticky rice rolled in balls and yeast and stuck in a jar for a week. Pretty much exactly the same as your recipe with no water added at all. I wonder if the water addition is a regional thing in Thailand as I have seen recipes for it with water. Or, since there is a large Chinese population there maybe that's where my MIL's recipe is from as my FIL's family emigrated there from China.

I think I'll do has been suggested and start a batch after two weeks so that both will be done so I can either be smug or shamed.
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The back of the ARL packet says "24-36 hours" and it also says "When wine aroma appears" but I think that means that the rice is ready to eat. I know for a fact that there's alcohol after 3-7 days but not enough for me. MUCH better at 26-30 days.
 
jak1010 said:
The back of the ARL packet says "24-36 hours" and it also says "When wine aroma appears" but I think that means that the rice is ready to eat. I know for a fact that there's alcohol after 3-7 days but not enough for me. MUCH better at 26-30 days.
Click to expand...

The recipes I've seen from suppliers here in China all say to harvest after a couple days, but they're making 米酒 (mijiu) breakfast porridge, which ferments a bit sour but minimally alcoholic (kids eat/drink the stuff for breakfast), and is often heated up and then has raw eggs cooked into it and sugar added, at least that's pretty standard here in Wuhan. The seven day fermented beverage is probably what they serve to women after giving birth, in which case less alcohol is desirable, since whatever mom takes in, the baby's gonna take in as well (unless you're using formula).

It's also worth noting that, with the possible exception of winter 黄酒 (huang jiu - nothing like the drink of the same name in Shanghai), I've never encountered alcoholic, non-distilled rice wine in over six years in China. It's typically 白酒 (bai jiu - distilled grain liquor, usually horrendous in flavor) or cheap Chinese lager when people drink outside of foreign bars here.
 
FatDragon said:
...It's also worth noting that, with the possible exception of winter 黄酒 (huang jiu - nothing like the drink of the same name in Shanghai), I've never encountered alcoholic, non-distilled rice wine in over six years in China. It's typically 白酒 (bai jiu - distilled grain liquor, usually horrendous in flavor) or cheap Chinese lager when people drink outside of foreign bars here.
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That makes me sad.
 
I made a batch with ARL at 1:1.5 and after it slowed down, I added roughly an additional third of the volume of water. After almost 4 weeks the product is great. It' shot some sweetness, but it has a similar dry bite to a good Merlot. I ended up with a better flavor and much higher volume with no apparent compromise in alcohol content.
 
I may have to try that. I think the additional water brings the % down causing the yeast to activate again and produce the same quality with more quantity.

Do you have a supplier for ARL near by as well? How do you compare it to the Yeast Balls?
 
I have a 20 oz mug full of rice wine. I'll let you guys know what I think the ABV is after I've finished it. :)
 
jak1010 said:
I may have to try that. I think the additional water brings the % down causing the yeast to activate again and produce the same quality with more quantity. Do you have a supplier for ARL near by as well? How do you compare it to the Yeast Balls?
Click to expand...
My ARL came from nahamilto40 on this thread and it is a bit more efficient than the balls I got at my local market. I think we've pushing the limits of how little water we can add to get results. As long as there are solids left, we probably could add some water to reduce ethanol inhibition and get more yield.
 
I've got the whole glass in my belly now. No way it's more then 15%, feels more like 12. This was the batch made with 0.5 grams of ARL to 1.5 cups of dry jasmine rice.
 

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