Looking for some help with my alkaline water

[Adirondack47]

Im about 6 batches into this madness we call home brewing and am starting to pay more attention to my water. I had begin to notice that the first few batches of IPA that I made had great aroma coming out of the carboy but lost most of their hop character (or became muddled) and took on a notable astringency that made the beer just blah a 5-6 weeks after bottling. I didn't know why at the time but my batch of saison (w/acidulated malt) as well as my coffee stout (lots of dark malt) were notably better than any of the batches of IPA that I made. I know there's a number of other factors that could be to blame but Ill address those at a later point in time, I just want to focus on water here.

I also switched to BIAB a few batches ago which introduced some efficiency and conversion issues which has brought me to the point where I now want to improve my water. I know that there is a plethora of good programs out there that I could input my recipes into and get a report on what I should put in each one but im really just looking for a one size fits most/ general suggestion for improving my water when making light or pale beers as I will probably be brewing more of them than any other style. Im also hoping to accomplish this with just a few items, namely: Acidulated Malt, Lactic Acid, Calcium Chloride & Gypsum.

 

[ajdelange]

In terms of mental effort the easiest thing to do is dilute with 4 parts of RO water and follow the Primer. In terms of physical effort probably the easiest is to add 2.3 mL of 10% phopshoric acid to each liter of the water. This will knock out the alkalinity but leave the other minerals pretty much the same. Those levels of minerals with the alkalinity vanquished are fine for a whole bunch of beers. Again you could follow the Primer but cut back on the calcium salt additions because you will already have fair amounts of calcium, sulfate and chloride.

 

[Adirondack47]

In terms of mental effort the easiest thing to do is dilute with 4 parts of RO water and follow the Primer. In terms of physical effort probably the easiest is to add 2.3 mL of 10% phopshoric acid to each liter of the water. This will knock out the alkalinity but leave the other minerals pretty much the same. Those levels of minerals with the alkalinity vanquished are fine for a whole bunch of beers. Again you could follow the Primer but cut back on the calcium salt additions because you will already have fair amounts of calcium, sulfate and chloride.

AJ- Lets say that my typical preboil volume for a 5 gallon batch with my system is 7.5 Gallons; would that ratio be about 6 gallons (RO water) : 1.5 gallons (My Tap Water)?

Do you have a link to the primer? I think that I've clicked on it but if im not mistaken its almost 100 pages long. Is there a certain tab or page in there which I might track down the info that you mentioned?

Would I be able to minimize my alkalinity using some combination of the 4 compounds that I mentioned above? For some reason my LHBS is perpetually out of Phosphoric acid but almost always has citric, lactic etc. Lactic (88%) seemed to be mentioned quite a bit in my reading so I snagged some of it

 

[ajdelange]

AJ- Lets say that my typical preboil volume for a 5 gallon batch with my system is 7.5 Gallons; would that ratio be about 6 gallons (RO water) : 1.5 gallons (My Tap Water)?

Assuming you want to treat 7.5 gal in a 4:1 ratio that means 4*x + 1*x = 7.5 or x = 1.5 so, yes.

Do you have a link to the primer? I think that I've clicked on it but if im not mistaken its almost 100 pages long. Is there a certain tab or page in there which I might track down the info that you mentioned?

It's at: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Yes, there are pages and pages of responses some of which are pretty foolish and some of which are pretty astute but unfortunately we have no filter. The basic guidance is in #1. You might want to browse the other pages to see how people have fared with it.

Would I be able to minimize my alkalinity using some combination of the 4 compounds that I mentioned above? For some reason my LHBS is perpetually out of Phosphoric acid but almost always has citric, lactic etc. Lactic (88%) seemed to be mentioned quite a bit in my reading so I snagged some of it

Any acid will work but as you have quite a bit of alkalinity to deal with it is going to take quite a bit of acid. The advantage with phosphoric is that it is the most flavor neutral. If I do a calculation as to how much acidulated malt (relies on lactic acid) it would take I get 5.8% of a Maris Otter base malt grist. I think that is where most people would start to get uncomfortable. Assuming 15 lbs of malt and 5 gal of mash water you could also use about 12.3 mL of 88% lactic straight from the bottle. But it doesn't matter where the lactic acid comes from. That's quite a bit.

There are other things you can do to like use a darker crystal/caramel malt. Thirty One percent 80L caramel will dump as much acid as 6% sauermalz but that's a lot of crystal. You could use half that much (15%) and half as much sauermalz as I mentioned above (2.9% - no problem at that level). You can also try heating the water which should precipitate at least half the alkalinity. All these techniques are available but are getting a long way from the simple 'works most of the time' solution you seek. The Primer after dilution with RO water will give you that. The rest can (and should) come later as you get your feet wet.

 

[Adirondack47]

Assuming you want to treat 7.5 gal in a 4:1 ratio that means 4*x + 1*x = 7.5 or x = 1.5 so, yes.



It's at: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Yes, there are pages and pages of responses some of which are pretty foolish and some of which are pretty astute but unfortunately we have no filter. The basic guidance is in #1. You might want to browse the other pages to see how people have fared with it.



Any acid will work but as you have quite a bit of alkalinity to deal with it is going to take quite a bit of acid. The advantage with phosphoric is that it is the most flavor neutral. If I do a calculation as to how much acidulated malt (relies on lactic acid) it would take I get 5.8% of a Maris Otter base malt grist. I think that is where most people would start to get uncomfortable. Assuming 15 lbs of malt and 5 gal of mash water you could also use about 12.3 mL of 88% lactic straight from the bottle. But it doesn't matter where the lactic acid comes from. That's quite a bit.

There are other things you can do to like use a darker crystal/caramel malt. Thirty One percent 80L caramel will dump as much acid as 6% sauermalz but that's a lot of crystal. You could use half that much (15%) and half as much sauermalz as I mentioned above (2.9% - no problem at that level). You can also try heating the water which should precipitate at least half the alkalinity. All these techniques are available but are getting a long way from the simple 'works most of the time' solution you seek. The Primer after dilution with RO water will give you that. The rest can (and should) come later as you get your feet wet.

Thank you for all of your insight and suggestions AJ, I appreciate it!

I was hoping to hear that I could use some combination or acid malt and salts or acids to get closer to that desirable 5.1-5.5 range but at least I now know that it doesn't matter where the acid comes from, the taste in the finished product could be unpleasantly altered if too much is used. I will have to give some consideration to using RO in my lighter ales as you suggested.

My last question for now: Lets say that I use somewhere around 4-5% acid malt in my recipe for an IPA without using the correct amount of RO/Salts/Acid to the get "ideal" mash Ph range, would the taste be "better" than I perceived it to be before or is having the correct Ph an all or nothing proposition?

 

[ajdelange]

My last question for now: Lets say that I use somewhere around 4-5% acid malt in my recipe for an IPA without using the correct amount of RO/Salts/Acid to the get "ideal" mash Ph range, would the taste be "better" than I perceived it to be before or is having the correct Ph an all or nothing proposition?

I did forget to mention yesterday the effects of calcium on mash pH. While they aren't huge a lot of people like a great deal of sulfate in their IPAs and consequently add so much gypsum that the calcium acidification effect is appreciable. If you were to use 3% sauermalz, 5 grams of gypsum and 10 - 12% crystal of around 10L you would probably wind up with a mash pH of around 5.5 and that should be fine.

Getting the mash pH 'right' is important but it isn't a black/white thing. It is only necessary to get into the desirable range in order to see a noticeable improvement in the flavor of the beer. At the same time it is probably prudent to note that fixing the water isn't the whole story. You can't brew a great beer with the wrong water but getting the water correct does not guarantee a good beer. You have to do all the other stuff right too.

 

[uncleleon]

IMHO you don't want to try and change ph with mineral additions. Stick with phos acid or acid malt. Preboil and decant. Or better yet cut the water with RO like Aj said. Use the calculators and brew on.

Sounds like you are halfway through your water problems already!

 

[rhys333]

IMHO you don't want to try and change ph with mineral additions. Stick with phos acid or acid malt. Preboil and decant. Or better yet cut the water with RO like Aj said. Use the calculators and brew on.

Sounds like you are halfway through your water problems already!

I'd like to jump in with a question of my own here if its okay. Due to high alkalinity and river water supply in my area I decided to switch to straight RO with CaCl2 and gypsum additions. I read AJ's primer and use EZ water calculator to determine mineral addition. Based on what EZ tells me, I haven't been using acid for all but the lightest of beers... even pale ales with a modest crystal and/or roast addition as long as I get my calcium up around 100. Have I wandered astray here and should I be using acid instead of just the salts?

 

[ajdelange]

You probably should be using some form of acid in most of your beers but 'probably' is in the sentence for a reason. It depends on the proton deficits of your mash components i.e. the water (high alkalinity ~ high proton deficit) and malts (low color ~ high proton deficit: high color ~ negative proton deficit) and how much of each type of malt you use. This is what the spreadheets and calculators are for but they can only get you into the ball park. To answer the question with certainty you need a pH meter.

 

[rhys333]

Thanks AJ. I've been considering a pH meter but also weighing purchase/maintenance costs and practicality of these devices on the homebrew scale. Lack of experience with the tool is contributing to my confusion.

 

[Adirondack47]

Well my BYO Double Sunshine Clone is in the carboy!

I didn't fully resolve my efficiency issues (still missed my Est. OG despite incorporating a few new methods), couldn't find any RO water at (3) stores that I checked and it rained all day but other than that everything went off without a hitch! :cross:

My local Wal-Mart has a refillable water station at the front of the store that I always assumed dispensed RO water. I couldn't find any info that on the machine that confirmed that it was in fact RO water so I went with straight DI water after re-reading the primer. I ended up using 6 gallons of DI and about 1.5-2 gallons of my tap water and then added 1.5 tsp of CaCl2 and Gypsum. I also used about 2-3% of Acid Malt in my 16lb grain bill

Hopefully this will make a bit more decent beer than Ive been churning out and give me a longer baseline for understanding how those changes have impacted the final product.

Thanks again AJ!

 

[uncleleon]

I've been hearing a few breweries say they don't use brewing salts they just RO a portion of their water.

What is the standard acidification process for a large brewery?

I just got The Practical Brewer. A few caveats were that lactic and phos were too expensive and interestingly enough that at super high mineral levels sacrification can take as little as 15 minutes.

 

[ajdelange]

I've been hearing a few breweries say they don't use brewing salts they just RO a portion of their water.

Depending on what you are shooting for and what you have that can be a viable technique. Suppose, as a trivial example, that you had a water with everything in the desired proportions but three times as much of each ion as you want. Diluting 2:1 with RO then gives you the profile you seek. The optimization algorithm I use is allowed to adjust salts and dilution water on the same basis seeking to minimize the error between the log of each ion content and the log of the desired ion content. Pure water is then just another 'salt' addition.

What is the standard acidification process for a large brewery?

It varies. In Germany apparently is it lactic acid (sauergut) prepared by the brewery. In England it is an equinormal blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids made especially for the purpose. In the US, phosphoric seems to be popular.

I just got The Practical Brewer. A few caveats were that lactic and phos were too expensive and interestingly enough that at super high mineral levels sacrification can take as little as 15 minutes.

I have trouble accepting that phosphoric acid is too expensive at about $1.30 Lb for 88% food grade (700 lb drum). Each pound would treat 15 bbl of water with alkalinity 100 mashing about 1400 lbs of grain (1.33 qts/lb).

I imagine a lot of breweries simply don't bother with this nor do many even check mash pH. Their beers suffer for it unless they stumble on some combination of high kilned malt and low alkalinity water which it is, of course, quite possible to do.

 

[01TRV]

Fellow Syracuse guy here (Cicero). I finally ordered a Ward Labs kit yesterday. I got a copy of a past water report for the area off of someone online, which looks like the one you posted. After some nasty astringency issues I have done a bit of reading on the water subject and our crappy alkalinity. Going off EZ water and a wheat beer grain bill I will likely add 5ml of lactic 88%, and 2 grams of gypsum, 2 grams Calcium Chloride, and 1gram of Epsom to the total 8 or 10 gal of water volume next time I brew. I still need to figure out the exact profile I will shoot for, and see what my tap water results show, but those additions put all the EZ water values in the green without having to dilute any.

 

[Adirondack47]

A small update and a follow up question.

The update: Many thanks for your help AJ; my 7th batch as a home brewer (with your water recommendation) has certainly been my best. The mineral aftertaste is nowhere to be found and the overall profile of the beer was softer and certainly more palatable than any of my previous batches.

I currently have my 2nd batch with the recommended water regimen in the carboy and will report back on how it turns out. I tweaked the CaCL2 and Gypsum additions slightly from the 1tsp recommendation that I used in the batch above to favor my personal tastes

A follow up question: I will be brewing a Kate The Great clone and am looking for another recommendation on water using both my tap water, DI water, CaCL2 & Gypsum. Here is the recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/official-kate-great-russian-imperial-stout-clone-217674/

Im looking to end up with about 5 gallons of finished product that I plan to age in the carboy for the rest of the year. Ive got a longer boil than usual, a larger grain bill than normal and a move to secondary so I am anticipating that I will need about 9-10 gallons preboil volume to get there.

Would you mind giving me a recommendation for water with this recipe?