Long Draw draft questions.

[VonMessa]

I know that this topic has been discussed numerous times.

I think that I have wrapped my head around it (sort of).

My fridge is in basement, taps will be on kitchen wall. I will probably purchase trunk line (no time of patience to make it, although it looks fairly easy) and use glycol cooling

Rough Dimensions:

about 18' total run of trunk line

105" of that is Horizontal

~ 9' total vertical distance from center of keg to tap.

Using various calculators online, using 1/4" line and 3/16" bore on shank, it appears that I need about 160" of line, minimum. (assuming average 2.7 vols at 40 degrees F) Does this sound about right?

Since my total run is about 220", how will that affect pressures, etc?

I can answer any questions, as needed. I just don't want to buy too much or too little trunk line.

If more info is needed, I can gladly provide it.

I DO have an option to put fridge directly under taps and make it a straight, 9' vertical run, but that will put the footprint of the fridge in a awkward spot. I can provide pictures as well, if needed.

Thanks, guys.

 

[OneImpBrewery]

Well not the best of position, but good on you for making the best of it. Sooo my head says lots of psi to push it through that much tubing.

I show 15.583 psi to get it through 220" of 1/4" tubing(vinyl) or 13.75 for Polyethylene.

Plus 4.5 psi to get it up the 9' Vert.

So with a psi of about 18-20 at 40 degrees you are at 3.01-3.19 volumes of co2(according to my chart but it could be off, either way you are in the right ball park) if left that way.

It sounds like you have it figured out. Any tubing you remove from that run will allow you to leave the kegs at a lower psi so less carb. Sounds like you should be able to if you are from 160 to 220. You can run a piece of rope from point a to b then cut or mark and measure to be exact so you don't over buy.

Here is where I got my keg info from for reference. Best site i have found so far.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/

Good luck and post pictures when you get it done

-Imp

 

[milldoggy]

I think you will need a few feet of restrictor line(3/16), 18 ft is too short of 1/4. I ran the numbers when I did mine and went with 25 ft of 1/4 barrier tubing with a 9 rise.

 

[VonMessa]

I used the excel calculator (I forget where I got it) and I told it that I have a 3/16" bore on my shank.

Odd thing is... When I calculate for a straight run from basement, up to tap (without the horizontal run) I get the same length. Does this sound correct? I can't imagine it does. 105" of horizontal run should still add resistance.

 

[runningweird]

math and I are not good friends.

but, I ran mine from the basement to the living room - or about 8 feet - and had to run mine @ about 15 psi, and I used 3/16ths line i think

 

[milldoggy]

L = (P - (H * .5) - 1)/R

where
L = length of beer line in feet
P = pressure set on regulator gauge
H = Total height from the center of the keg to faucet in feet
R = Resistance of line from the following Resistance Table
1 = this is the residual pressure remaining at the faucet *

 

[milldoggy]

So bevflex 1/4 is .3 a foot. If you use (12 - 4.5 - 1)/.3 = 21 ft. Now I run 25 at 12 psi and flow is fine. I run 4" of 3/16 to step down to my stainless lines on my tower.

Bevflex 3/16 is 2.0. (12 - 4.5 - 1)/2 =3.25 ft

http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=87

 

[VonMessa]

So, as I suspected, I am going to need ~ 20' regardless of which of the two locations I am going to put the fridge.

Remote means more trunk line, under the tap means more coil in the fridge.

Hmmm...

 

[milldoggy]

You can open the trunk line and splice 3/16 to 1/4 for restriction. This stuff does not coil great. Use aluminum tape to rewrap the line, then electrical tape over the foam.

 

[VonMessa]

You can open the trunk line and splice 3/16 to 1/4 for restriction. This stuff does not coil great. Use aluminum tape to rewrap the line, then electrical tape over the foam.

I suppose I can do that (splicing) in the wall in what I am calling the "tower" (behind the taps)

If I go directly under the taps in the basement, I will make the trunk line as it will only be about 9', insulated. The remainder, I will coil in the fridge.
Should be easier to coil, that way. (I assume you mean the trunk line is tough to coil, or are you referring to the beer lines, themselves?)

 

[milldoggy]

The lines themself, it is not like vinvl. You would need to coil vertically and attach to the wall and if you are tight on kegs like I am, it is not an option

 

[VonMessa]

The lines themself, it is not like vinvl. You would need to coil vertically and attach to the wall and if you are tight on kegs like I am, it is not an option

I am in the same position. I am about to drop the hammer on 1/4" BevFlex. The shanks I want to use are 1/4" also, so I hope I am getting the correct size...


Thanks again, fellas.

 

[VonMessa]

I think you will need a few feet of restrictor line(3/16), 18 ft is too short of 1/4. I ran the numbers when I did mine and went with 25 ft of 1/4 barrier tubing with a 9 rise.

I get this (using 9' height and 1/4" tube):

L = (keg_pressure – 1 – (Height/2)) / Resistance

L = (12 - 1 - (9/2))/ .85

L = (11 - 1) / .85

L = 10 / .85

L = 11.7

That is a lot less than your 25'. How can I be so far off?

 

[milldoggy]

Step 2: 12 -1 -4.5

You did the math wrong

 

[VonMessa]

Step 2: 12 -1 -4.5

You did the math wrong

LOL, indeed I did. I was using my Kindle while I was waiting for my step-mother at her Doctor appointment and I was rushing it, as well.

Duh, not even drinking...

Thanks.

Also, you mentioned that the tube was hard to coil. What do you think the smallest diameter it could be coiled to? Would a heat gun help get it smaller? I have one. I was going to coil the extra in the fridge and hang it on the wall.

 

[VonMessa]

Step 2: 12 -1 -4.5

You did the math wrong

Wait:

Step 2: 12 - 1 - 4.5 = 6.5

6.5/.85 = 7.64

That is REALLY off.

Now I'm really confused...

Is it because the 1/4" Bev Seal http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=87 has a resistance of .3?

Using that resistance factor, I get 21.6'. That sounds more like it.

 

[milldoggy]

Yes, that is what I was using, .3

 

[milldoggy]

I would imagine 12 " circle. No way would I use a heat gun to coil it. Maybe a long oval would be better

 

[VonMessa]

All good news.

I ordered the hose :rockin:

 

[milldoggy]

Where did you get it from?

 

[milldoggy]

Oh, they also make resistors you can install in your tap or get taps with a dial resistor on them

 

[VonMessa]

MicroMatic. I got 100' of the Brewmaster II

 

[milldoggy]

Making the line yourself? What size did you get for glycol? Mine is 3/8 I think. Also, hvac aluminum tape is good to seal in condensation. That is what my premade line was wrapped in and how I patch it when I cut it open. I did the cost analyst(time, money hassle). I prefabbed line was cheaper. Rochester fixtures is a great place and great to do business with. They helped me out.

 

[VonMessa]

Making the line yourself? What size did you get for glycol? Mine is 3/8 I think. Also, hvac aluminum tape is good to seal in condensation. That is what my premade line was wrapped in and how I patch it when I cut it open. I did the cost analyst(time, money hassle). I prefabbed line was cheaper. Rochester fixtures is a great place and great to do business with. They helped me out.

I have more time than money on my hands right now, plus I already have all the materials needed to make my own line, except the line. I have an old, copper, immersion chiller that I will use for glycol up to and around the shanks and some poly for the return. I am also going to make some cooling blocks such as these to cool the shanks.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Are those cooling blocks of a cast material?

They look to be...........Would you know the material, perhaps?


Edit: Dug into the site, they be Aluminum.


Hmmm..........Gears turning here........If you knew you're spacing, (taps), and line diameters beforehand, you could cast it all in one mass block, mainly the channel for the cooling lines to "nest" in, then pick up you're shank holes later.
Then you would have a "major" thermal mass there!

 

[VonMessa]

Are those cooling blocks of a cast material?

They look to be...........Would you know the material, perhaps?


Edit: Dug into the site, they be Aluminum.


Hmmm..........Gears turning here........If you knew you're spacing, (taps), and line diameters beforehand, you could cast it all in one mass block, mainly the channel for the cooling lines to "nest" in, then pick up you're shank holes later.
Then you would have a "major" thermal mass there!

Cast? What is this casting you speak of? Sounds like work...

Aluminum machines like butter and I have plenty :rockin:

 

[Stealthcruiser]

You rock on then, Brother!
Where I work, we make male and female stamping dies out of a material called "Kirksite", which is why I was mentioning a "full length" cooling block, with the cooling tube cast into it.........Not much work when the material is already melted for another job.

But you just keep on making your "swarf"................And that machine ain't dirty enough !..........

 

[VonMessa]

You rock on then, Brother!
Where I work, we make male and female stamping dies out of a material called "Kirksite", which is why I was mentioning a "full length" cooling block, with the cooling tube cast into it.........Not much work when the material is already melted for another job.

But you just keep on making your "swarf"................And that machine ain't dirty enough !..........

I know the stuff!

I was a toolmaker in a former life (pre-divorce, lol). Now I do it for fun. That was a new machine, pic. That sucker is filthy, now!!!