lessons learned after 10 batches

[Red04]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.

6. No drinking until boil.

7. Get a brewers log book

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.

 

[SeanTheWheatBrewer]

Ice water bath is very effective if you spin the kettle every few minutes to promote heat transfer and mixing. Use cold packs and ice cold water for first bath, then drain and refill with ice water second time

 

[Kharnynb]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.
hydrometers are cheap, easy to use and more accurate, especially after fermentation.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.
I've only ever used a blowoff tube for belgian quads with lots of sugar or syrup, but I guess it depends if you ferment hot or not.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.
60% efficiency is pretty terrible, ask them to double crush or adjust to finer if you use biab.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.
agreed(liters for me, but anyway)

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.
probally overkill, but you can do it if you want

6. No drinking until boil.
no drinking till after you done all hot liquid handling/carboy lifting is my motto.

7. Get a brewers log book
definately, only after about 30 batches do i sometimes ignore it and just brew something off the cuff.

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.
for primary, I still prefer basic white 7 gallon buckets, hdpe ones are best as you can even dump hot wort straight into them

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.
I've stopped bothering, I just dump the wort straight into my fermenter, then the fermenter goes into an icebath that will be used as temp control/swampcooler as well.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.

6. No drinking until boil.

7. Get a brewers log book

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.

Personally i like the hydrometer better. Once fermentation is going, it gives me accurate readings whereas the refractometer reading has to get adjusted due to alcohol.

Is the low efficiency due to crush or is it somewhere in your process? You could always run the grain through their mill a second time if the problem is the crush.

 

[Dland]

No need to throw away your blow off tube if you sanitize it. if you are getting wort in it all the time, you don't have enough head space in fermenter for batch size.

Low efficiency; would look into mash and sparge procedure.

I rack to kegs before cold crash, not sure why one would do otherwise, the yeast will not be active after crash anyway.

If you use a plate chiller, you can lower rate of hot wort though it for cooler finish temps.

 

[brewbama]

Good comments. Here are some suggestions:

1. I use a refractometer during mash and boil but pull a sample of wort to compare and track progress of before, during, and after fermentation with hydrometer readings. Apples to apples.

2. Clean one tube.

3. Get a mill in the future. ...but don’t crush too fine. There’s a point of diminishing returns. Too fine a crush will create flour and compact. A compact grain bed won’t allow good drainage.

5. I recommend a balloon filled with CO2.

9. Chill the best you can, place fermenter in fermentation chamber until pitching temp.

 

[kh54s10]

1 a hydrometer is best for after fermentation has begun.
2 why throw away perfectly good tubing. Clean it and sanitize it.
3 get a mill or have the LHBS run the grain through twice.
4 great advice
5 use an S style airlock
6 lightweight - Just control your drinking
7 don't need a log book - but do take notes.
8 I don't like NEIPA's so far.. A bucket would be easier.
9 I have the same problem. I use a pre-chiller, get it as low as possible, put it in the chamber and pitch when it is cooled.

10 And most important - HAVE FUN

 

[GoeHaarden]

1. Hydrometer and a refractometer are both important tools...
2. Or just buy a 6.5 - 7 gallon fermentor and avoid blow-offs all together
3. Ritebrew will do a double crush that is usually pretty decent or buy your own mill
4. Agreed
5. Agree with S-type
6. Agreed
7. Beersmith is handy for this...
8. Just dilute your DIPA with orange juice = NEIPA (no thanks!)
9. Immersion chillers work best when the wort is recirculated around it. I prechill and whirlpool - down to mid 60's in less than 10 minutes. Even with ambient in ~90's

 

[Nagorg]

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next

Solution: Recirculate your wort and pump ice-water through the immersion chiller at the same time! I do use tap water to take things down below 100 first and then switch to the ice-bucket.

 

[Nagorg]

down to mid 60's in less than 10 minutes. Even with ambient in ~90's

I'd like to see this with an immersion chiller.... What batch size?

 

[GoeHaarden]

I'd like to see this with an immersion chiller.... What batch size?

5.5 gallons into fermentor. Spigot -> counterflow chiller (submerged in ice bath with ice water pumped through outer line) -> exits at temps in low 30's -> into immersion chiller (wort whirlpooled with chugger)

 

[Red04]

Solution: Recirculate your wort and pump ice-water through the immersion chiller at the same time! I do use tap water to take things down below 100 first and then switch to the ice-bucket.

View attachment 578232

View attachment 578233

View attachment 578234

What pump do you have? None of the cheap ones I’ve seen have a garden hose fitting.

 

[Nagorg]

I use a 1/4 HP Superior Sump Pump. I actually have two, one for ice water circulation and another for cleaning kegs with hot PBW.

 

[Nagorg]

counterflow chiller (submerged in ice bath with ice water pumped through outer line)

That counterflow with ice water circulation is the key... I was pretty sure an immersion chiller alone wouldn't drop temps that low, that fast!

 

[GoeHaarden]

That counterflow with ice water circulation is the key... I was pretty sure an immersion chiller alone wouldn't drop temps that low, that fast!

Agreed. I get the best results that way. It wasn't quite as fast when I reversed the order of the chillers either.

 

[brewcat]

I pretty much never need a blowoff. The only time maybe when fermenting a Belgian. Control your fermentation temp.

 

[mongoose33]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.

6. No drinking until boil.

7. Get a brewers log book

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.

Congrats on making it to 10 batches.

BrewBama, GoeHaarden, and KH54s10 have pointed some things out. I won't repeat them. The real lesson here is that you were able to figure some things out, now the name of the game is to improve on that, things such as realizing the need for a refractometer for post-fermentation measurement, your own mill so you can control the crush instead of being at the mercy of a LHBS, and avoiding the need to replace a blowoff tube each time. Get a tubing brush and clean it, saves money. Better yet, a larger fermenter.

I used a breadbag filled with CO2 to provide suckback CO2, similar to your ziploc.

And +1 on the no drinking until the boil. In fact, I generally don't until the end of the boil. Too easy to get relaxed and forget to include a hop or whirlfloc tablet or some such.

I've also found that having someone "help" me almost guarantees I'll forget something. My helper last Sunday helped me into forgetting to toss my Whirlfloc tablet in.

 

[LittleRiver]

Solution: Recirculate your wort and pump ice-water through the immersion chiller at the same time! I do use tap water to take things down below 100 first and then switch to the ice-bucket.

I do something very similar (details here), and it's very effective. The cooling capacity of the ice water is the key. It eliminates any restrictions imposed by ambient or groundwater temps.

I first recirculate from a 5gal bucket of tap water. When the wort and water temps equalize, I switch to recirculating from a cooler filled with ice water. The bucket of now hot water gets saved for use as wash water during cleanup. The ice water in the cooler turns into warm water, which is used for rinsing during cleanup. The IC is cleaned by just dunking in the cooler a few times.

The higher ice surface area of small ice cubes or crushed ice is more effective at heat transfer than large blocks of ice. I get a 20lb bag of ice at a local grocery store for a little more than $2.

 

[Red04]

Congrats on making it to 10 batches.

BrewBama, GoeHaarden, and KH54s10 have pointed some things out. I won't repeat them. The real lesson here is that you were able to figure some things out, now the name of the game is to improve on that, things such as realizing the need for a refractometer for post-fermentation measurement, your own mill so you can control the crush instead of being at the mercy of a LHBS, and avoiding the need to replace a blowoff tube each time. Get a tubing brush and clean it, saves money. Better yet, a larger fermenter.

I used a breadbag filled with CO2 to provide suckback CO2, similar to your ziploc.

And +1 on the no drinking until the boil. In fact, I generally don't until the end of the boil. Too easy to get relaxed and forget to include a hop or whirlfloc tablet or some such.

I've also found that having someone "help" me almost guarantees I'll forget something. My helper last Sunday helped me into forgetting to toss my Whirlfloc tablet in.

Haha. I cleaned the blow off tube the first few times. It’s like $.30 if you buy 100 foot roll. Plus it’s always good to have tubing on hand. My lesson is DONT clean it.

Of course I have two little ones and we both work. So I’m all about speed and as little effort as possible. It’s hard enough finding 4-5 hours. Others will be meticulous and frugal.

I’m going to start shortening boil times on my brews I repeat and see if I can get some time back without a drop in quality.

 

[kh54s10]

That $.30 each time you brew adds up. In just a couple that is a pound of grain. In 7 years I have retired $.60 to $.90 of blow off tubing. Plus that is going into a landfill. Clean and sanitize that tubing and get a lot of life out of it.

 

[Dland]

I used a breadbag filled with CO2 to provide suckback CO2, similar to your ziplock.

OK, you have me curious, why would you still run an airlock while crashing.

 

[mongoose33]

I used a breadbag filled with CO2 to provide suckback CO2, similar to your ziploc.

OK, you have me curious, why would you still run an airlock while crashing.

I don't, not if I'm using a breadbag. I put a short piece of rigid plastic tube in the drilled stopper, attach a piece of tubing, and tie off the CO2-inflated breadbag to it, to feed back CO2 as the headspace shrinks.

 

[Dland]

I don't, not if I'm using a breadbag. I put a short piece of rigid plastic tube in the drilled stopper, attach a piece of tubing, and tie off the CO2-inflated breadbag to it, to feed back CO2 as the headspace shrinks.

OK, but why not crash in sealed keg? Yeast is done working after crash, why leave the air lock?

Last couple batches been doing the LoDO spunding, so I let beer it pressurize itself before crash. Before that I was pressure carbonating after kegged and crashed(chilled to 33*F)

Hey I do not know it all, just know how I brew, no attitude implied, and maybe I learn something. It is a good thing there are many paths to good beer!

 

[mongoose33]

OK, but why not crash in sealed keg? Yeast is done working after crash, why leave the air lock?

Last couple batches been doing the LoDO spunding, so I let beer it pressurize itself before crash. Before that I was pressure carbonating after kegged and crashed(chilled to 33*F)

Hey I do not know it all, just know how I brew, no attitude implied, and maybe I learn something. It is a good thing there are many paths to good beer!

The breadbag approach is an old one; now, I have the beer in the fermenter, it gets crashed in there under pressure, no suckback. The breadbag approach is just a different way to feed CO2 into a nonpressurized fermenter where suckback can occur.

 

[Red04]

I don't, not if I'm using a breadbag. I put a short piece of rigid plastic tube in the drilled stopper, attach a piece of tubing, and tie off the CO2-inflated breadbag to it, to feed back CO2 as the headspace shrinks.

The breadbag approach is an old one; now, I have the beer in the fermenter, it gets crashed in there under pressure, no suckback. The breadbag approach is just a different way to feed CO2 into a nonpressurized fermenter where suckback can occur.

Exactly. It’s one or the other. Crash under pressure or provide co2 via balloon or bag to fill fermenter when dropping the temperature.

 

[eadavis80]

My low rent + decent "work out" to chill is use my immersion chiller and I have a big storage bin that I put the kettle in with water into when I am chilling. I put the hose from the chiller into the bin and let the kettle sit in that water for 5ish minutes. I then lift the kettle and empty out the water (as it's pretty warm in about 5 minutes) to water plants/grass. I put 3 2-liter bottles of water in the freezer the night before brew day and put those 3 bottles of frozen water in the storage bin each time I'm filling the water. So, I left the kettle/change water about 4-5 times on a brew day which is a little tedious/tiring, but it gets my 5./25 gallons to pitchable temps in about 30 minutes. Makes the first (or 2nd beer depending on your drinking) very refreshing by the time you pitch your yeast.

 

[soccerdad]

Opinions are good things

 

[mongoose33]

Opinions are good things

Not necessarily.

 

[b_oh_bee]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.

6. No drinking until boil.

7. Get a brewers log book

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.

thanks for sharing your learnings. I'm only a few all grain batches in and struggling with mash efficiency myself. I've just upped the grain bill a bit to compensate, but curious if it's the crush as well.

 

[Kharnynb]

I guess as a bottler, I worry less about oxigen suck-back than a kegger.

 

[mongoose33]

I guess as a bottler, I worry less about oxigen suck-back than a kegger.

Suck-back is while the beer is in the fermenter, not the keg, and it's only occurring if you're cold-crashing the beer. The gases in the headspace of the fermenter contract as the beer cools, and as some of that CO2 is absorbed into the beer. That creates a partial vacuum drawing in air or whatever from outside the fermenter.

The issue we're discussing is how to have the gases sucked back into the fermenter be CO2 and not just air with its 21 percent oxygen content.

 

[mongoose33]

thanks for sharing your learnings. I'm only a few all grain batches in and struggling with mash efficiency myself. I've just upped the grain bill a bit to compensate, but curious if it's the crush as well.

Here are a few things to check:

1. Your crush. If too coarse, all the starch can't gelatinize, or it takes a long time to do so. I've seen some "crushes" on here where there are intact barley kernels making through. If you don't get the husk removed and the inside crushed, it's not going to convert.

2. Mash temp. If it's out of the range of about 148 to 157, you're not going to be as successful.

3. How is your water? A good mash needs a pH in the range of about 5.2-5.6; if you're very much outside this range, you're not going to be as successful. If you're not paying attention to water (perhaps just using tap water w/o knowing its composition), then I'd bet this is playing a role.

4. I found my efficiency rose when I stirred at 15- and 30-minutes. I don't use a violent, splashing stir, just trying to rehomogenize the mash. My efficiency shot up when I did this.

5. Make sure you're mashing long enough. I'm using a somewhat coarse crush (.035 on monster mill), compared to the .020 I used with my barley crusher. When I did the .020, I had most conversion done within 15 minutes, as the starch in the smaller particles gelatinized quickly and was made available to the enzymes for conversion. For instance, if I was expecting a pre-boil gravity of about 1.054, I might be at 1.044-1.048 within 15 minutes.

However, when I went back to .035, I was initially shocked to find that at 15 minutes, I might be about 1.018, maybe 1.020. I stirred, stirred again at 30 minutes. By the time I got through with a full hour mash, I was where I needed to be.

So, if you're mashing for 60 minutes, stir well and try 70 or even 75 minutes, see if that makes a difference. I've become less concerned about just cutting off the mash at 60 minutes, I'll go 70 or even a bit longer.

6. When you check your preboil gravity after lautering (or if BIAB, draining the bag), you need to stir the wort very well. I've found there can be strata within the wort, the sugar seems to be more concentrated at the bottom. I find this in the mash too--the sugar was concentrated in the grain, which of course sits at the bottom of the mash tun with liquid on top of it.

Anyway, good luck!

 

[Red04]

I guess as a bottler, I worry less about oxigen suck-back than a kegger.

I got into brewing so I could make NEIPAs. My research scared me into kegging, closed transfers, and blowoff tubes. I don’t know if any of it was warranted, but that’s where I’m at.

But the thought of cleaning bottles makes me ill anyway.

I also enjoyed building my side by side fridgeinstein kegerator/ferm chamber.

Here are a few things to check:

1. Your crush. If too coarse, all the starch can't gelatinize, or it takes a long time to do so. I've seen some "crushes" on here where there are intact barley kernels making through. If you don't get the husk removed and the inside crushed, it's not going to convert.

2. Mash temp. If it's out of the range of about 148 to 157, you're not going to be as successful.

3. How is your water? A good mash needs a pH in the range of about 5.2-5.6; if you're very much outside this range, you're not going to be as successful. If you're not paying attention to water (perhaps just using tap water w/o knowing its composition), then I'd bet this is playing a role.

4. I found my efficiency rose when I stirred at 15- and 30-minutes. I don't use a violent, splashing stir, just trying to rehomogenize the mash. My efficiency shot up when I did this.

5. Make sure you're mashing long enough. I'm using a somewhat coarse crush (.035 on monster mill), compared to the .020 I used with my barley crusher. When I did the .020, I had most conversion done within 15 minutes, as the starch in the smaller particles gelatinized quickly and was made available to the enzymes for conversion. For instance, if I was expecting a pre-boil gravity of about 1.054, I might be at 1.044-1.048 within 15 minutes.

However, when I went back to .035, I was initially shocked to find that at 15 minutes, I might be about 1.018, maybe 1.020. I stirred, stirred again at 30 minutes. By the time I got through with a full hour mash, I was where I needed to be.

So, if you're mashing for 60 minutes, stir well and try 70 or even 75 minutes, see if that makes a difference. I've become less concerned about just cutting off the mash at 60 minutes, I'll go 70 or even a bit longer.

6. When you check your preboil gravity after lautering (or if BIAB, draining the bag), you need to stir the wort very well. I've found there can be strata within the wort, the sugar seems to be more concentrated at the bottom. I find this in the mash too--the sugar was concentrated in the grain, which of course sits at the bottom of the mash tun with liquid on top of it.

Anyway, good luck!

Has anyone done an experiment and isolated the variables. Time vs crush, pH, stirring, temp.

So what pH puts you in the 60s? What temps will push you down several points?

If you suspect crush, what length of time will overcome it? 2 hours? 3 hours?

I guess everything is pretty easily corrected except crush. You gotta buy a mill.

 

[mongoose33]

I got into brewing so I could make NEIPAs. My research scared me into kegging, closed transfers, and blowoff tubes. I don’t know if any of it was warranted, but that’s where I’m at.

But the thought of cleaning bottles makes me ill anyway.

I just put them in the dishwasher. I use a vinator to spritz sanitizer in them just before bottling so it helps eliminate any of the rinse-aid that might still be on the bottle. Makes bottle washing trivial.

Has anyone done an experiment and isolated the variables. Time vs crush, pH, stirring, temp.

I don't know about the experiments, but if you haven't bought the four books Malt, Yeast, Water, Hops, I would recommend them.

So what pH puts you in the 60s? What temps will push you down several points?

I think you may be mixing apples and tranmissions here. What does "pH in the 60s" mean? And I don't know how, if at all, temps will push pH around. Never heard of or read anything where people were using temp to manipulate pH.

If you suspect crush, what length of time will overcome it? 2 hours? 3 hours?

I guess everything is pretty easily corrected except crush. You gotta buy a mill.

I have never been inclined to try different coarse crushes and test how long and if at all they'd convert. Mine convert, even with a coarse crush, it just takes the full hour or a bit more.

Even the current conventional wisdom about BIAB--that you want a finer crush--I think is likely unnecessary, so long as you crush enough, and wait long enough, and have the right pH and temp.

I'm doing a no-sparge, full mash in a mash tun at the same parameters I was using when BIAB. In my case (accounting for system losses like dead space, 8.25 gallons with a 12# grain bill, and a .035 gap on the mill....an hour will do it. I've been letting it go a bit more just because. I'm getting the conversion I expect, so I don't see any reason to go further.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I do something very similar (details here), and it's very effective. The cooling capacity of the ice water is the key. It eliminates any restrictions imposed by ambient or groundwater temps.

I first recirculate from a 5gal bucket of tap water. When the wort and water temps equalize, I switch to recirculating from a cooler filled with ice water. The bucket of now hot water gets saved for use as wash water during cleanup. The ice water in the cooler turns into warm water, which is used for rinsing during cleanup. The IC is cleaned by just dunking in the cooler a few times.

The higher ice surface area of small ice cubes or crushed ice is more effective at heat transfer than large blocks of ice. I get a 20lb bag of ice at a local grocery store for a little more than $2.

This is what I do as well. Garden hose to chiller for the initial temperature drop. Once I've gotten about all I can from that I have a cooler filled with ice water (20# bag of ice dumped in water). I use a small pond pump to move the water through the chiller and back to the cooler. This drops the wort to pitching temps quite quickly. Leaves me with a Homer bucket filled with hot water and a cooler with additional water for cleaning.

 

[Kharnynb]

Suck-back is while the beer is in the fermenter, not the keg, and it's only occurring if you're cold-crashing the beer. The gases in the headspace of the fermenter contract as the beer cools, and as some of that CO2 is absorbed into the beer. That creates a partial vacuum drawing in air or whatever from outside the fermenter.

The issue we're discussing is how to have the gases sucked back into the fermenter be CO2 and not just air with its 21 percent oxygen content.

I know, but with bottlecarbonation, the little oxigen will be used up by the yeast either way.

 

[LKABrewer]

I know, but with bottlecarbonation, the little oxigen will be used up by the yeast either way.

Yeast may absorb most of the free oxygen, but it cannot do anything about oxidized beer. Do not confuse free oxygen with oxidation.

 

[Rodent]

Exactly. It’s one or the other. Crash under pressure or provide co2 via balloon or bag to fill fermenter when dropping the temperature.

thoughts on fermenting in a temp controlled mini chest freezer, where the space is filled with CO2 blow-off during fermentation. if the space is not disturbed, any suck back should be CO2 since that's the only atmosphere within the chamber ... or am I missing something obvious because it's right in front of me?

 

[Kharnynb]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

 

[Red04]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

Mine sucks back a 1 gallon ziploc full of cO2. Not sure what the impact would be if it sucked back 1 gallon of atmosphere for a few days.