Legality of kegging

[scyohe]

I'm sure this has been answered and I in fact know the answer to my own question but my buddy doesn't believe me. I live in NY and we were having a discussion about getting into kegging and he is adamant that it is illegal to obtain/own a keg without a license.

Even after I show him that our LHBS sells complete keg kits he stills holds on to his belief. Does anyone have a link or know where I can find irrefutable proof?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Why bother? If he is so adamant that licensure is required to keg beer then make him provide the proof.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Your buddy is an idiot.

 

[Egghead]

I think Gila is right. Your buddy is the one making the claim that it's illegal, despite evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof should be on him. Make him show you the relevant statute in your state's legal code. Otherwise, he's just blowing hot air.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Yeah, I wouldn't even bother.

 

[Revvy]

Sorry guys, you're wrong and your friend is sort of right. 5 seconds with google would have showed you.

More than likely he's referring to this....and not making a distinction between sanky and corny kegs.

Beer keg registration is a legal requirement in some U.S. states and localities that identification tags or labels be affixed to beer kegs upon retail sale. They often consist of requirements that tags and records retained by the retailer list the name and address of the purchaser, the date and location where the beer will be served, and other information. These laws vary widely in their specifics and enforcement. There appears to have been little academic study of the efficacy of beer keg registration laws.

List of American states with beer keg registration Laws

See: List of keg registration laws

Arkansas
California - seven or more gallons
Connecticut
District of Columbia [1]
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Iowa [2]
Kansas
Kentucky
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
New Hampshire
New Mexico
New York - four or more gallons [3]
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oregon - six or more gallons
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Vermont
Virginia
Washington - four or more gallons

In addition, the state of Utah does not have a keg registration law as such, however the state requires anyone in possession of a keg to obtain a temporary beer permit, and limits the use of kegs to low-alcohol beer only.

Measuring public policy: The case of beer keg registration laws.

Except in New York State the law evidently expired without renewel

Beer Keg Registration Expired
New York state law requiring registration for beer kegs has expired.

The law enacted by the Legislature in 2003 required retailers to affix tags to each keg sold that identify the purchaser's name, address and driver's license number. The law also increased the $10 deposit on each keg sold to $75. The deposit was reduced to $50 in 2008. Lawmakers approved the law eight years ago after a number of high-profile underage drinking incidents in Westchester County during 2002.

(Information taken from this website)

The historical breakdown goes as follows (a special thanks to Aggie Leahy, Director of Legislative Research for Whiteman Osterman & Hanna LLP in Albany, NY):

Ch 192 of the Laws of 2003 was the original statute. Sec. 2 of that chapter expired 4 years thereafter (2007).
Ch 614 of the Laws of 2007 extended registration for another year (until 11/22/08).
Ch 632 of the Laws of 2008 extended for yet another year (until 11/22/09). Upon signing the bill, the Governor also issued an approval memo, and indicates a desire to make the law permanent.
Ch 316 of the Laws of 2009 extended registration for one more year (until 11/22/10). A 10808 (Schimminger)/S 7739 (C. Johnson), extended registration for yet another year (until 11/22/11), but the bill only passed the Senate. It didn’t make it to the Assembly floor.
Sen. Valesky sponsored an SLA departmental bill (S 7334), which would extend registration until 11/22/13, but that bill didn’t move beyond introduction.
Therefore, the registration expired since neither of the bills passed both houses. Legislation will need to be re-introduced this year in order to re-enact that section of law.

There's a news story about it here. http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/sto...now-off-the-books/quQ2OlIsCUimYR3hvijnvQ.cspx

But this law is more about buying beer in Sanke Kegs like from beerstores than about dispensing homebrewin in Corny Kegs. So you could say you're both right....And that he just doesn't understand the difference between the two kegs, and the retail rules of buying kegged beer as opposed to how we use cornies and soda kegs in homebrewing.

 

[Homercidal]

I think the special words to note in the above references are "Beer" and "Keg".

See, we don't normally use beer kegs for kegging. Corney kegs, or Soda Kegs, are the norm. If the LHBS is selling corneys, then you are all set.

if you want to use a keg that was built for, and previously used by a brewery to hold their licensed beer, then you may have a problem. But not likely.

 

[Revvy]

i think the special words to note in the above references are "beer" and "keg".

See, we don't normally use beer kegs for kegging. Corney kegs, or soda kegs, are the norm. If the lhbs is selling corneys, then you are all set.

If you want to use a keg that was built for, and previously used by a brewery to hold their licensed beer, then you may have a problem. But not likely.

+1

 

[samc]

That information seems to indicate that if you go and buy a keg of beer it will have a tag applied to it at the retail level. It doesn't say you can't buy an empty Sanke keg and fill it at home and consume the beer at home like we do with Corny kegs. Your friend is not aware of the law and he isn't really an idiot or wrong, just not hip to the ways of "home brew".

 

[bruin_ale]

I say buy a keg setup and don't let him drink any, tell him it'd make him an "accomplice"

 

[MazdaMatt]

erm, i think the key words are "retailers" and "retail sale".

I take the meaning of "beer keg" to be a keg of beer. The breakfast table isn't moved out of the room and replaced with a dinner table at dinner time, its the same table. My point is, a corny keg with beer in it is a beer keg. But that doesn't matter since you're not a retailer and your beer keg is not for retail sale.

It also says that retailers are required to affix a tag... I don't see it mention that you have to leave it on there.

 

[KevinM]

I've dug around that as well, and I haven't found any requirements outside of renting a keg and having it filled with beer, for the use for a party for example, to require this information. Mostly because people (usually police) wanted to be able to trace if there was underage drinking involved and who brought the keg in. I've seen some advantages in regards to people trying to take the empty keg afterwards and turn it in for scrap metal, but the renter was called to receive it. (Additionally, I imagine that the rental place would want their keg back, since the deposit was low enough that non-brewers would often just sell it as scrap metal to recoup the deposit.)

I couldn't find anything in regards to the actual purchase of an EMPTY keg corny or otherwise, so I just gave up on that. And now apparently I have 8 soda kegs I use for wine, beer and anything else I want.

 

[h22lude]

I'm a little confused as to what the argument is about. Is he saying it is illegal to keg homemade beer in general? Is he saying it is illegal to use a rented sanke keg for homemade beer?

It is not illegal to keg beer, period. If you make beer, you can keg it. Buying a corny keg and filling it with beer for your own consumption is not illegal. Where it gets sticky is when you have a sanke keg. If you buy a keg of beer at the liquor store, you don't own that keg so you have to return it. If you buy a sanke keg from the junkyard or a brewery, at that point you own it and can cut it into a keggle or fill it with homemade beer.

Obviously it is illegal to sell homemade beer not matter if it is kegged or bottled but I don' think that is the argument.

 

[thereefgeek]

Tell your buddy to keep on bottle priming, while you enjoy crystal clear force carbonated beer on tap. When he asks to taste your beer simply tell him "No, it's illegal. Enjoy your sediment, brew buddy"

 

[Tall_Yotie]

The snarky answers are abound, so feel I need to add something.

If we answer posts like this then it makes people watching this forum not want to deal with us. It is the reason why my wife, a fellow brewer, does not get involved in the forums here; she sees too much petty snide stuff going on, and if she has a question she doesn't want to deal with people that feel the need to insult.

Yes, another rant from me. But seriously, I see this too much, and really isn't the supportive community mentality that we should have here.


To the OP, seems that there is a mix of truths in his concern. Show him some links that Revvy posted, and explain that as it is not for dispensing retail beer you do not need registration; same reason you can brew beer for yourself as opposed to selling it to people without a license.

 

[bruin_ale]

The snarky answers are abound, so feel I need to add something.

I just reread this whole thread trying to figure out what might have caused you to post what you did... I'm not seeing it. Nobody has insulted the OP, a couple of us made jokes about his friend not getting any keg beer.. what's the deal?

 

[burninmules]

i just reread this whole thread trying to figure out what might have caused you to post what you did... I'm not seeing it. Nobody has insulted the op, a couple of us made jokes about his friend not getting any keg beer.. What's the deal?

+1

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I could give a reply with quote of the comments made, and other examples I have seen, but that would be hijacking the thread.

It was the jokes at the friend, or comments about him, without any useful additions. But that is not the topic of this thread, so I will drop it.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I could give a reply with quote of the comments made, and other examples I have seen, but that would be hijacking the thread.

It was the jokes at the friend, or comments about him, without any useful additions. But that is not the topic of this thread, so I will drop it.

Get off of your keg stand and let someone else at the beer.

 

[h22lude]

I could give a reply with quote of the comments made, and other examples I have seen, but that would be hijacking the thread.

It was the jokes at the friend, or comments about him, without any useful additions. But that is not the topic of this thread, so I will drop it.

Wait did you say jokes. Oh my god I can't believe people would joke on such a serious forum...

I think we did a good job at answering the OPs question and I don't see any bad comments. If you can't take a joke or two, maybe forums aren't for you. This is probably the best forum im on. Hardly any arguments, people are extremely nice and answer questions even if the question has been answered 100000000 times. People are going to joke around. Its how it is.

OP did we answer your question? Do you feel like we made fun of you or your friend?

 

[Homercidal]

Your buddy is an idiot.

I say buy a keg setup and don't let him drink any, tell him it'd make him an "accomplice"

Example of said snarkiness.

Honestly, I don't think it's that bad. They are jokes, not insults. (Well, ok, IP's is pretty much an insult, but in jest (I think)).

There are some pretty good books you could read if you don't like the internet.

(See what I did there? It's a joke...)

 

[Airborneguy]

To the OP:

I'm a law enforcement officer in NY. This topic has been discussed to death on here, and I posted a huge explanation, with the legal information, regarding keg purchases in NY in another thread.

The synopsis is that it is perfectly legal in NY for you to keep a keg that you legally aquired at a distributor/brewery. The legal transfer of property includes the keg, not just the beer. Any vessel made to hold an item is transfered upon reciept of that item. Unless you sign a contract that states brewery/distributor retains ownership of the keg (or any vessel, to be clear), you are doing nothing illegal. Note: the contract must state that they retain ownership, not merely that you lose the deposit.

Take a look at post #129 on this page:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/dfh-score-220957/index13.html

As an aside, homebrewing is legal in NY by omission, ie, since it is not illegal, it is legal. Because of that, we have a fairly lax situation here regarding transport, gifting, events, etc, involving homebrew. Kegging is certainly not illegal. NYS law merely states that any alcohol not subject to federal tax is legal alcohol. Homebrew is not subject to federal tax up to 100gal person/max 200 per household, per year. Therefore, producing that amount of homebrew in NY is legal by omission. To be technical, it is not the act of homebrewing that is important here. It is the fact that the alcohol produced is not subject to a federal tax.

 

[Revvy]

As an aside, homebrewing is legal in NY by omission, ie, since it is not illegal, it is legal. Because of that, we have a fairly lax situation here regarding transport, gifting, events, etc, involving homebrew. Kegging is certainly not illegal. NYS law merely states that any alcohol not subject to federal tax is legal alcohol. Homebrew is not subject to federal tax up to 100gal person/max 200 per household, per year. Therefore, producing that amount of homebrew in NY is legal by omission. To be technical, it is not the act of homebrewing that is important here. It is the fact that the alcohol produced is not subject to a federal tax.

Wow you learn something new everyday...But I guess it's the same reason that Owning a flame thrower is technically legal. There are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, with violations only considered to be misdemeanors, but 40 states have absolutely no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. Only in America would a device capable of launching rivers of fire at people be less regulated than marijuana.

 

[Homercidal]

Wow you learn something new everyday...But I guess it's the same reason that Owning a flame thrower is technically legal. There are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, with violations only considered to be misdemeanors, but 40 states have absolutely no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. Only in America would a device capable of launching rivers of fire at people be less regulated than marijuana.

R U KIDDING ME??

I'm totally building a flamethrower now! FWOOSH!

 

[Revvy]

R U KIDDING ME??

I'm totally building a flamethrower now! FWOOSH!

Well, that's according to Cracked Magazine-7 Items You Won't Believe Are Actually Legal

 

[IrregularPulse]

Yes I called him an idiot, yes it was in jest. Sorry if I offended anyone And I think the key words in Revvy's first post were "upon retail sale". I really don't care because I'm confident that kegging is not illegal. If you're friend has a problem with, tell him not to keg. It's not your responsibility to do any research to convince him of what you already know. My response to the friend, if it was me in your shoes, would simply be, "You're an idiot". Thus I posted the response.

 

[Airborneguy]

I didn't know that either, but then again, I've never come across one at work. I just looked in the penal law and flame throwers aren't mentioned at all under weapons. If it is used as a weapon, anything can be, so it would be covered under that definition, but I'd have to dig pretty hard to find out what would happen if someone was using on to burn leaves or something.

 

[wildwest450]

The snarky answers are abound, so feel I need to add something.

Well, the op posted an off topic question, so he's fair game. This is not a legal advice forum, it's a beer brewing forum. I'd tell you to get off your high horse, but if it's half as tall as you are that would take months.


_

 

[pernox]

Wow you learn something new everyday...But I guess it's the same reason that Owning a flame thrower is technically legal. There are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, with violations only considered to be misdemeanors, but 40 states have absolutely no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. Only in America would a device capable of launching rivers of fire at people be less regulated than marijuana.

Massachusetts would qualify that as an "infernal machine" unfortunately - though not surprisingly for a state with an Attorney General that makes a list of handguns that are legal to purchase new in the name of "consumer protection."

Regarding the OP, if your friend has serious concerns about being around your potentially illicit kegs, offer him the printed laws from NYS and have him consult a lawyer for a legal opinion on the intent of the law and any caselaw that may also be available. Shouldn't take more than an hour's consultation. Then he can consume your fine brews with a clear conscience, and not worry about the Beer Police conducting a raid.

 

[Pappers_]

Well, that's according to Cracked Magazine-7 Items You Won't Believe Are Actually Legal

My new go-to source for important information

 

[edmanster]

R U KIDDING ME??

I'm totally building a flamethrower now! FWOOSH!

Thanks for the laugh!! Everyone here at work just turned and looked at me funny!...lol...

 

[IrregularPulse]

And this thread made the FB mention?

 

[mmb]

Not something I would choose to show as an example of the content on the site.

Will we see a TKT post to FB next?!

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Well, the op posted an off topic question, so he's fair game. This is not a legal advice forum, it's a beer brewing forum. I'd tell you to get off your high horse, but if it's half as tall as you are that would take months.


_

Luckily my high horse tends to be in a rut. So I can shout from it, it just doesn't work very well.

Sorry for the post, low blood sugar and dealing with other idiots of the internet (not people on this forum) made me a bit snappy.

Can we somehow combine a flamethrower and home brewing? Would be a pain to have to hold your heat source for the kettle, perhaps flash-roasting of malts?

 

[Revvy]

Can we somehow combine a flamethrower and home brewing? Would be a pain to have to hold your heat source for the kettle, perhaps flash-roasting of malts?

Actually the other day we almost did. I've tried to post pictures but I've had problems uploading pics to the remote site. But 2 weeks ago we did a 25 gallon brew in a 30 gallon pot. We were having trouble getting it to a full rolling boil in a decent amount of time, and one of our guys left and came back with a homemade propane weed torch like this;

We thought we'd be able to give it a good zap and kick the pot up. But it had the old style connector on it, and wouldn't make a good connection to the tank.

 

[GarySBrewing]

I say screw it all as it is sometimes better to ask forgiveness rather than permission, Relax and drink a home brew. I think your buddy needs a new hobby, like home brewing!

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Wow you learn something new everyday...But I guess it's the same reason that Owning a flame thrower is technically legal. There are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, with violations only considered to be misdemeanors, but 40 states have absolutely no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. Only in America would a device capable of launching rivers of fire at people be less regulated than marijuana.

Strangely enough, flamethrowers are not that useful as weapons. The guy with the flamethrower is target one, and even pistols out range flamethrowers.

They are pretty dang cool to play with, though.

Even more strange, "Molotov Cocktails", which are just bottles filled with gasoline, with a flaming rag around the top, are VERY regulated. They are considered "Destructive Devices", which require Federal Registration and are totally illegal in many states.

Hmmm...a Sankey would make a MASSIVE pipe bomb, wouldn't it?

 

[jsweet]

Strangely enough, flamethrowers are not that useful as weapons. The guy with the flamethrower is target one, and even pistols out range flamethrowers.

Well, they are effective as anti-personnel weapons in an enclosed space. Their primary military use is for clearing bunkers, trenches, etc. US troops in the Pacific theater found they were especially effective at clearing caves, since the fire would rapidly consume the available oxygen, killing the occupants even if they were too deep to be directly in danger from the flame itself.

Pretty awful stuff, I gotta say. But in any case, they are useful special-purpose weapons, though you are right that in, say, an open field, a guy with a pistol is in much better shape.

 

[weirdboy]

The registration law Revvy posted has nothing to do with homebrew anyway. The relevant words are upon retail sale. If you are selling your homebrew you have more to worry about than whether the keg is registered.

 

[Revvy]

The registration law Revvy posted has nothing to do with homebrew anyway. The relevant words are upon retail sale. If you are selling your homebrew you have more to worry about than whether the keg is registered.

yes, that's the point of what I posted, I think his friend is confusing THAT law as opposed to any law that really relates to us....