Legal?

[Yooper]

Can you expound on this one?

He bought the ingredients, you brewed it into beer, and returned the beer to him.

No money or item of value changed hands. What's the problem with this one?

In most states, the brewer made the homebrew and thus "owns" it. In some states, you can't even gift homebrew, or take it out of your home to your boat or to your campsite.

In my state, I can give away something like 20 gallons of homebrew per year. It used to be a 6 pack. In some states, it's only legal to remove homebrew from the brewer's home for competitions.

If someone bought ingredients, they can give them to a homebrewer for a gift, no problem. But the brewer usually can't gift back beer, unless the state law allows for the gifting of homebrew from a brewer's home.

It's important to check with your state laws. Most places that have a liquor license will not allow homebrew into it.

 

[MalFet]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

 

[mattd2]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

Yes, accept what you want to do is illegal but the likelihood of getting caught is minimal.
Exactly the same thought process as speeding in your car

 

[Phunhog]

You must not be very good in your field. Most states it's illegal to give homebrew away. It is for personal and family consumption, a lot of states do make exceptions for contest and tastings. To give someone blanket advice that they can give away homebrew while saying you are in the legal field is just bad.

And Calif is one of the states where it is only for family consumption

100% NOT TRUE!! In fact I am going to the Southern California Homebrewers Festival in a few weeks. Something like 500 beers being served.

 

[mattd2]

100% NOT TRUE!! In fact I am going to the Southern California Homebrewers Festival in a few weeks. Something like 500 beers being served.

Would that not be a tasting?

 

[reinstone]

Tell him he can't pay you, but he could buy you equipment to help you in the task. If you are like most home brewers, you probably have your eye on some upgrades or need new fermenting vessels or something.

That would be barter......thus taxable income, thus illegal

He can buy the ingredients and help you brew and then take the beer.

 

[Phunhog]

Would that not be a tasting?

It is a tasting. I was disputing the fact that it is for family/personal use only. So talk about legal loopholes.. The Southern California Homebrewers Festival is a perfect example. It features over 30 homebrew clubs serving over 500 beers and that's a conservative guess. The ticket price is 40 bucks. But wait....what you buy online is not a "ticket" but rather an annual membership to the California Homebrewers Assoc. The festival is "free" if you are a "member". Anyone can be a "member" with the caveat that "memberships" are not sold the day of the festival.

 

[jmadway]

In most states, the brewer made the homebrew and thus "owns" it. In some states, you can't even gift homebrew, or take it out of your home to your boat or to your campsite.

In my state, I can give away something like 20 gallons of homebrew per year. It used to be a 6 pack. In some states, it's only legal to remove homebrew from the brewer's home for competitions.

If someone bought ingredients, they can give them to a homebrewer for a gift, no problem. But the brewer usually can't gift back beer, unless the state law allows for the gifting of homebrew from a brewer's home.

It's important to check with your state laws. Most places that have a liquor license will not allow homebrew into it.

What I would like to know is how many of these scenarios that so many of these posts have hypothetically described have actually been prosecuted? What type of precedent is there for prosecuting homebrewers in scenarios like those described throughout this thread? Does anyone who has posted to this thread know of anyone who has run into legal troubles with their homebrew (in states where homebrewing is legal)?

 

[Beer_Eugenics]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

Every time this topic comes up I’m amazed at how many people actually believe the government will prosecute them for bartering small amounts of homebrew.

 

[MalFet]

Every time this topic comes up I’m amazed at how many people actually believe the government will prosecute them for bartering small amounts of homebrew.

Who said they will?

 

[mattd2]

It is a tasting. I was disputing the fact that it is for family/personal use only. So talk about legal loopholes.. The Southern California Homebrewers Festival is a perfect example. It features over 30 homebrew clubs serving over 500 beers and that's a conservative guess. The ticket price is 40 bucks. But wait....what you buy online is not a "ticket" but rather an annual membership to the California Homebrewers Assoc. The festival is "free" if you are a "member". Anyone can be a "member" with the caveat that "memberships" are not sold the day of the festival.

but that is what an exception is - it is for personal use except for...
Here is the California rules from the AHA website - http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/california

§ 23356.2. Beer; manufacture for personal or family use; exemption

No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over the age of 21 years. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed (a) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in such household, or (b) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in such household.

Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions, including homemakers' contests, tastings, or judgings.

 

[Beer_Eugenics]

Who said they will?

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

 

[MalFet]

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

Oh, right..."several threads". Let me know if you find an example.

 

[Phunhog]

Oh, right..."several threads". Let me know if you find an example.

I don't know if I can find an example but I do find it hilarious that some people on this board really do think that this forum is monitored. Just read some of the first posts.
The laws are written the way they are so that someone can't run an unlicensed brewery and try to sell the beer on a commercial level. That is what the government is concerned about. They don't care, as evidenced by sheer lack of enforcement, if someone brews some beer for a friends wedding and is compensated in some way. In fact how is that any different than your friend paying you gas money to drive him to the airport? You are receiving compensation for something that you are not licensed to do i.e. transport fare paying passengers. Now lets stop and use a little common sense here..does anyone really believe that is what the law is concerned with? Of course not!

 

[mattd2]

I don't know if I can find an example but I do find it hilarious that some people on this board really do think that this forum is monitored. Just read some of the first posts.
The laws are written the way they are so that someone can't run an unlicensed brewery and try to sell the beer on a commercial level. That is what the government is concerned about. They don't care, as evidenced by sheer lack of enforcement, if someone brews some beer for a friends wedding and is compensated in some way. In fact how is that any different than your friend paying you gas money to drive him to the airport? You are receiving compensation for something that you are not licensed to do i.e. transport fare paying passengers. Now lets stop and use a little common sense here..does anyone really believe that is what the law is concerned with? Of course not!

But the OP's question was if it was illegal.
Theoritical answer = yes
Practical answer = it doesn't matter if it is a one time thing for a good friend and noone will nark on you

 

[xtian116]

I'm telling!

Haha!
I was saddened to hear that I can only brew 200 gallons.
Next you're going to tell me they are tracking my grain purchases! (I'm screwed!)

 

[brewkinger]

I have read several of these threads with people replying that the ATF , ABC or local authorities are trolling the forum just waiting to pounce on a home brewer “selling” homebrew.

I was one of the thread contributors that did mention, albeit in a humorous way, that perhaps a member of the ATF could be trolling the forum.
It was merely an attempt to convey the same message that has been posted in multiple threads along the way.

The main points which have been mentioned, are:
It is most likely not a wise decision or a legal one to accept any form of payment to brew the beer.

It is most def not a wise decision to post these intentions in a public forum.

And finally, if any of you naysayers think for one second that the gov-ment is not aware of this type of forum and occasionally checks us out to make sure we are following the rules, then you may be kidding yourself.
I have a friend that works at Quantico, does not brew beer, but it was him that told me about this forum and the wealth of information available.
He told me that after that Moonshiners show started airing that a ton of people started "brewing". His job description is Internet intelligence gathering.
I have seen, although not in a while, posts on here asking about corn mash, etc.....
Do you think that if I can find it online, that the people whose hobbit is to find stuff out on the Internet cannot access the same materials?

Just saying.

 

[brewkinger]

Hobby, stupid autocorrect!

 

[mamies]

Here is a pretty simple solution I think...

Why dont you assist them in brewing it. Part of the OP question was that his mate wanted beer brewed for the wedding. Let him brew it with you help then he is distributing it to family. I dont see any issues with this.

Remember I am not up to date with American law.

 

[jmcquesten]

What about if the wedding was also a tasting event? Maybe invite a certified bjcp judge? I'm sure that's probably illegal too. Usually, if it's fun, or provides enjoyment to anyone, and the government isn't getting money out of it, you can count on it being illegal.

 

[caver95]

I just read this thread and want my 15 minutes back. This is a train wreck and I couldn't stop looking.

 

[emjay]

Every time this topic comes up, I love all the people who think they can come up with a crafty way to make the transaction not technically a "sale". Pretty bottles, coincidental gifts, markup on ingredients...

This is not how our legal system works.

Every time this topic comes up I’m amazed at how many people actually believe the government will prosecute them for bartering small amounts of homebrew.

Way to miss his point, he said nothing of the sort. He was merely making the valid observation that all the legal loopholes these armchair attorneys constantly come up with are not going to get around the law.

So the point is, it's an absolutely frivolous and futile practice. If you're going to break the law (which is doubtlessly low-risk in cases like this), then just go ahead and break the law... these bogus loopholes aren't going to accomplish a damn thing.

Besides, if the OP was sincere when he said this (though somewhat doubtful since he even bothered to create this thread)...

i insisted pay was not needed, but he insisted right back that he wanted to pay me.

... then the obvious decision for him would be to just tell his friend that payment would be illegal and thus he will not accept it. Which, as a fellow homebrewer, I can say without a single doubt would be the RIGHT thing to do - and I don't just mean that in the legal sense, either.

 

[Yooper]

What I would like to know is how many of these scenarios that so many of these posts have hypothetically described have actually been prosecuted? What type of precedent is there for prosecuting homebrewers in scenarios like those described throughout this thread? Does anyone who has posted to this thread know of anyone who has run into legal troubles with their homebrew (in states where homebrewing is legal)?

Well, the question wasn't, 'Will I get prosecuted?". He probably won't get caught, or prosecuted. The question was "Is this legal?". It certainly is not, and no thinking of ways around it will make it so.

It's like speeding- it's not legal. Will YOU get caught and fined for going 5 over the speed limit? No, probably not. Not getting caught is not the same as something being legal- that needs to be clear.

Having a 'tasting party' won't making selling homebrew legal, no matter how you phrase it. Getting caught and prosecuted is highly unlikely.

 

[brewkinger]

+1 to what Yoop said.

 

[MalFet]

There's nothing particularly unusual about how little these laws are enforced. A great many things work like this, where the laws are written broadly to allow discretion in enforcement but where you will almost certainly escape notice if you don't make a nuisance of yourself. Most of us, for example, live in places with all sorts of ordinances about how we keep our houses, but if you don't piss off your neighbor enough for him to start pestering the police, it is unlikely that anyone will care.

There are two things that are probably relevant to the OP:
1) As was mentioned earlier, there's a good chance the owners of wedding venue will have strong opinions about whether or not they want homebrew in their space. People don't get busted for selling homebrew, perhaps, but businesses lose their liquor licenses all the time.
2) If you're breaking the law, even nominally, you're more vulnerable to civil lawsuits from the other guests. Imagine some guy gets drunk, does something stupid, decides he needs to sue somebody, and then recalls that there was this weird "homebrew" stuff that everybody was drinking, you'll find yourself under a bit more scrutiny.

 

[JeepDiver]

100% NOT TRUE!! In fact I am going to the Southern California Homebrewers Festival in a few weeks. Something like 500 beers being served.

lot of states do make exceptions for contest and tastings..

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/california

California state statute § 23356.2 allows the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale by a person over the age of 21. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed 200 gallons or 100 gallons if only one adult resides in such household.

California represents one of the most comprehensive state statutes. §23356.2 also provides for the removal of beer manufactured in the home for use in competitions, tastings, or judgings.

Nothing in there about giving the beer away to a friend for his wedding, for him to take home, or anything else.

 

[Phunhog]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/california

California state statute § 23356.2 allows the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale by a person over the age of 21. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed 200 gallons or 100 gallons if only one adult resides in such household.

California represents one of the most comprehensive state statutes. §23356.2 also provides for the removal of beer manufactured in the home for use in competitions, tastings, or judgings.

Nothing in there about giving the beer away to a friend for his wedding, for him to take home, or anything else.

So is there any reason why he can't have a "tasting" at the wedding? I was disputing the fact that in CA you can't remove homebrew from your house. Obviously you can for "tastings" which is pretty open ended. If I bring kegs of beer to a homebrew festival or a wedding there really is no difference.

 

[JeepDiver]

So is there any reason why he can't have a "tasting" at the wedding? I was disputing the fact that in CA you can't remove homebrew from your house. Obviously you can for "tastings" which is pretty open ended. If I bring kegs of beer to a homebrew festival or a wedding there really is no difference.

There is a big difference. One is a festival set up by the leagle definition of beer tasting. The others is someone wanting to take his beer somewhere he wants. Words in a leagle statute have a legal definition. If there isn't one clearly spelled out in the statutes, then a Judge gets to decide the meaning, based on the intent of the law, not just someone who wants to make it fit his definition.

 

[thadius856]

there is a big difference. One is a festival set up by the leagle definition of beer tasting. The others is someone wanting to take his beer somewhere he wants. Words in a leagle statute have a legal definition. If there isn't one clearly spelled out in the statutes, then a judge reviews precedent beforehe gets to decide the meaning, based on the intent of the law, not just someone who wants to make it fit his definition.

ftfy.

 

[Phunhog]

There is a big difference. One is a festival set up by the leagle definition of beer tasting. The others is someone wanting to take his beer somewhere he wants. Words in a leagle statute have a legal definition. If there isn't one clearly spelled out in the statutes, then a Judge gets to decide the meaning, based on the intent of the law, not just someone who wants to make it fit his definition.

That's a good way of explaining it. However in CA there is no legal definition of what constitutes a "homebrew tasting". I have scoured the ABC site and have come up with nothing. There are rules governing commercial beer and wine tastings but nothing pertaining to homebrew. So there is no legal defintion of "homebrew tasting". I can't imagine a court actually taking the time on something like the definition of "homebrew tasting". So that leaves us operating in a gray area which is both good and bad. It leaves the interpretation/enforcement up to the local ABC office. I know someone in the bay area was holding a homebrew comp with 500 "judges". The ABC came in and said that a comp could only have 5-7 judges max. I don't where they got that from. It certainly doesn't say that in the law nor has it been decided by a judge. The ABC just wants to make it fit their "definition"

 

[JeepDiver]

That's a good way of explaining it. However in CA there is no legal definition of what constitutes a "homebrew tasting". I have scoured the ABC site and have come up with nothing. There are rules governing commercial beer and wine tastings but nothing pertaining to homebrew. So there is no legal defintion of "homebrew tasting". I can't imagine a court actually taking the time on something like the definition of "homebrew tasting". So that leaves us operating in a gray area which is both good and bad. It leaves the interpretation/enforcement up to the local ABC office. I know someone in the bay area was holding a homebrew comp with 500 "judges". The ABC came in and said that a comp could only have 5-7 judges max. I don't where they got that from. It certainly doesn't say that in the law nor has it been decided by a judge. The ABC just wants to make it fit their "definition"

Good luck fighting the ABC, when they are the ones that right most of the rules.

And yes it is a Gray area, but the reason I posted on this to begin with what the guy in the "Legal Field" telling someone they can give away all the beer they want when they can't.

And as mentioned above, say you give the beer to someone to use at their wedding, which is at a facility with a liqour license. Now lets assume a waiter, or maybe one of the other vendors working the wedding (Flowers, photographs, etc) notices the corny kegs of beer. They are married to a beer distribuitor who happens to have the contract with that facility, and is also connected to someone in the DA's office.

The facility fingers your firend, who fingers you. Do you think the DA will accept your definition of a beer tasting, when his friend is jumping down his neck about the money he lost by not having his beer at the wedding.

Far fetched? maybe. Worth the risk? I might do it myself. Worth telling someone on the internet that there is no way they will get in trouble for it. Sorry but I'm not going to take the risk that A) it could come back and bite me in the A**, and B) Risk someone else getting in trouble because they heard it from me that there is no way they can get in trouble for it.

Fact of the matter when it comes to the Law, if you get the wrong person (Cop, DA, friend of Cop, DA, Judge etc) on the wrong day, and they decide to make an example out of you, you can find your self with a major headache, no matter how many other people have done it 1000s of times.

So go ahead and make the decision for yourself, but know that you take a Risk, and sure as hell don't tell someone else there is no risk

 

[xtian116]

I don't even know if I should admit this here, but I work on many ABC cars. I talked to one of the agents about homebrewing, we actually did a few bottle swaps.

Technically illegal, right? They are only trying to bust people who try to make it a side business. They aren't out to catch the little guy brewing with/for a buddy.

 

[Phunhog]

Good luck fighting the ABC, when they are the ones that right most of the rules.

And yes it is a Gray area, but the reason I posted on this to begin with what the guy in the "Legal Field" telling someone they can give away all the beer they want when they can't.

And as mentioned above, say you give the beer to someone to use at their wedding, which is at a facility with a liqour license. Now lets assume a waiter, or maybe one of the other vendors working the wedding (Flowers, photographs, etc) notices the corny kegs of beer. They are married to a beer distribuitor who happens to have the contract with that facility, and is also connected to someone in the DA's office.

The facility fingers your firend, who fingers you. Do you think the DA will accept your definition of a beer tasting, when his friend is jumping down his neck about the money he lost by not having his beer at the wedding.

Far fetched? maybe. Worth the risk? I might do it myself. Worth telling someone on the internet that there is no way they will get in trouble for it. Sorry but I'm not going to take the risk that A) it could come back and bite me in the A**, and B) Risk someone else getting in trouble because they heard it from me that there is no way they can get in trouble for it.

Fact of the matter when it comes to the Law, if you get the wrong person (Cop, DA, friend of Cop, DA, Judge etc) on the wrong day, and they decide to make an example out of you, you can find your self with a major headache, no matter how many other people have done it 1000s of times.

So go ahead and make the decision for yourself, but know that you take a Risk, and sure as hell don't tell someone else there is no risk

Actually ABC doesn't write the laws, the CA legislature does. The ABC's job is enforcement and to some degree interpretation of current laws. That is why we need to petition our lawmakers for more homebrewing friendly laws.
If a facility doesn't want you to bring homebrew for whatever reason you must abide by that. Their house....their rules. End of story
Your story is a bit far fetched. Lets assume that really happened though. The "evidence" is a friend of friend of a co-worker saw something suspicious? Do you really think that would hold up in any court? I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that anyone would spend the time/money investigating something like this.

 

[Beer_Eugenics]

Way to miss his point, he said nothing of the sort. He was merely making the valid observation that all the legal loopholes these armchair attorneys constantly come up with are not going to get around the law.

So the point is, it's an absolutely frivolous and futile practice. If you're going to break the law (which is doubtlessly low-risk in cases like this), then just go ahead and break the law... these bogus loopholes aren't going to accomplish a damn thing.

Besides, if the OP was sincere when he said this (though somewhat doubtful since he even bothered to create this thread)...



... then the obvious decision for him would be to just tell his friend that payment would be illegal and thus he will not accept it. Which, as a fellow homebrewer, I can say without a single doubt would be the RIGHT thing to do - and I don't just mean that in the legal sense, either.

Didn’t miss his point I was merely piggybacking off the “every time this topic comes up” statement.

 

[Oddball]

We will pretend you didn't mention it and assume you won't blab about it if it happens.....

 

[tennesseean_87]

I will never take legal advice from someone who spells legal 'leagle'.

 

[dkwolf]

I don't know if I can find an example but I do find it hilarious that some people on this board really do think that this forum is monitored.

While I'm not going to say they ARE monitored, I wouldn't bet any amount of money that they AREN'T.

Take for instance, a fairly popular outdoors forum in the state of Iowa. I can tell you with 100% certainty that officers with the Iowa DNR have accounts on that forum, and do monitor the messages posted there. This knowledge came to me directly from a college roomate of mine, who is a DNR officer (although at the time he did not do any of the online stuff).

Don't think it can't happen.

 

[jefferym09]

Well if i cant remove my homebrew from my house then i MAY HAVE broken that rule plenty of times already. i know theres not much chance they would find out. but i also figure it would be good to get my liquor license at some point anyway, prob not anytime soon if it really is a pain in the ass to get.

 

[jefferym09]

and for the record i never posted my intentions online to actually sell him the beer in this fashion. I assumed it was illegal and just wanted to clarify.

 

[krackin]

and for the record i never posted my intentions online to actually sell him the beer in this fashion. I assumed it was illegal and just wanted to clarify.

We all know that, Honest Jeff.