Well that settles it!! Steelhead Brewing is in Eugene!!
Legal issues: Freetail Brewing Co.
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Well that settles it!! Steelhead Brewing is in Eugene!!
ao125
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Seems kinda like a d!ck move for McKenzie Brewing Co. / Steelhead Brewing Company to do it.
I mean, I kinda get it... "Hopasaurus Rex" apparently took Gold at GABF in 2001 and they went to the trouble of spending the trademark fee on it - but still, it's a simple matter that could have been cool-headedly discussed between two breweries without the need for legal threats.
I mean, I kinda get it... "Hopasaurus Rex" apparently took Gold at GABF in 2001 and they went to the trouble of spending the trademark fee on it - but still, it's a simple matter that could have been cool-headedly discussed between two breweries without the need for legal threats.
How do we know that the first brewery didn't send a simple letter which elicited this over-the-top response? Personally, if I had a valid trademark/copyright, tried to defend it, and received this in response, we'd be in court and I would do it in the most expensive way possible for the other brewery.
stamandster
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This is awesome! Reminds me of the Monster Cable guys and their group of zombie lawyers picking on anyone that uses Monster in their name. They weren't after Monster Golf or something once, lol.
Artemisag
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Good for them. Thats BS
JJL
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This is kind of rehashing an old argument. The last thread about copyright I read was Bell's sending a C&D notice to Northern Brewer over the use of the 2 hearted ale name. NB had clone kit that used the name IIRC. People in the thread thought it was a d!ck move for Bell's to send the letter and that they should have just asked NB to change the name. But, the reality is that they had to send the letter to protect the name. NB might not have been trying to maliciously profit from the name, but someone else might. So Bell's had to defend it against everyone.
It's the same case here. Steelhead (allegedly) probably has no issue with Freetail, but they have to protect the mark using legal channels. If they ever had to go to court over TM infringement they can't just say, "Well we talked to Freetail about it and they promised to stop using the mark." And, let's face it, legal notices always sound like they are written by some anal retentive jerk no matter what they're for.
On a lighter note, the response was hilarious. And he can get away with it because the likelihood Steelhead (allegedly) is going to sue him is slim to none.
It's the same case here. Steelhead (allegedly) probably has no issue with Freetail, but they have to protect the mark using legal channels. If they ever had to go to court over TM infringement they can't just say, "Well we talked to Freetail about it and they promised to stop using the mark." And, let's face it, legal notices always sound like they are written by some anal retentive jerk no matter what they're for.
On a lighter note, the response was hilarious. And he can get away with it because the likelihood Steelhead (allegedly) is going to sue him is slim to none.
You may be thinking of Monster Energy Drinks who sued the people who make Vermonster Beer. I think The Vermonster was like a huge barleywine. They settled out of court after Monster Energy got reamed on the webs and people started boycotting them.
I wonder where I could find a little plastic tyrannosaurus action figure and some little white flags to send to these people.
I love the response, but I can't say I blame Steelhead for trying to protect their trademark. From my understanding, the law REQUIRES that you do so for every known infringement, otherwise you could lose your standing to protect it in the future. If they let this one slide without a cease & desist, there's nothing stopping Miller from coming out with a "Hopasaurus Rex" tomorrow and claiming that Steelhead has given up its right to the trademark. You can't selectively enforce it.
TyTanium
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As cool as most brewers / breweries are, they are still a business, and are, in fact, in business to make money. Let's not be so quick to pass judgement here. Many people pick beers for what looks & sounds cool, and when there are so many beer names with "hop__something___" on the shelves, and they finally come up with a clever name to fool the some hopheads into buying their beer, I'd want to protect it too. Not a turd move, just normal standard business practice. I'm sure they probably laughed at the response too.
and +1 for precedent as JJL & cjb said. Needs to be in writing, preferable in lawyer-speak.
and +1 for precedent as JJL & cjb said. Needs to be in writing, preferable in lawyer-speak.
Toysmith Soft Dinosaur : Target
2.99 at Target- The white flags should be easy to find. It'd be awesome to hear that they received a ton of these things from the HBT'ers
fifelee
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Steelhead could have called first and informed Freetail they had to sent a letter to satisfy the trademark protection rules. Dick move by steelhead, great response.
Now that point I agree with. If it was me, I would have called them up and said "Hey man, we have a trademark on that name, I'd appreciate if you don't use it. We have to send a C&D letter for legal reasons, but just wanted to give you a heads up..."
JJL
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It would have been nice, but you're assuming Steelhead (allegedly) actually did the trademark search themselves. They definitely didn't. That's why there is a C&D from an attorney. They hired a TM attorney to do a TM search and then handle the C&D process. Steelhead (allegedly) probably just got a list from the attorney that said, "We found these market labels that use your TM. We sent out C&D notices." None of this is malicious. It's just business.
Firebat138
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You would have no legal recourse to go to court... They are not brewing a beer by the same name... Its like their hoprocket or something i think... they can call a process anything they want... But they could have changed it on the website... it IS listed under beers... very confusing
I think blowing a hole in a Nintendo or game console is legal in 5 counties though.
Actually I doubt that that's the case. The cost to have a patent attorney essentially on-staff doing things like that is pretty darn high. As it's a specialized area of law, you'll find that generally speaking they are able to charge higher rates. Usually upwards of $500 p/h. I'm honestly not sure that a small brewery could afford to have an attorney constantly checking stuff like that.
On the other hand, I could see them having someone on their office staff checking this stuff like once or twice a week, and then forwarding it on to counsel to churn out the C&D. That's a .2 hour bill, because it's a form letter saved to their system where they only have to change a few particulars.
The really funny thing about this letter is that it will cost (presumably) Steelhead some more money. If they had, as others suggested, called over, said hey, we understand you're using this, we just want to clear it up, but legally we are obligated to send the C&D letter, then they wouldn't have gotten this snarky response. Which, BTW, for those who have said they would just go ahead and sue Freetail after receiving this, note that standing would be removed, as he immediately said in his response that he will acquiesce, and give up the use of that name. But now, not only has Steelhead gotten themselves some bad press, they will also incur an additional legal fee since their attorney will have to review this letter once received, and then communicate the results back to the client. That's probably another .5 hours in billings.
Well done!
That response is hilarious, it made my lunch hour. Its also just business, so I don't really see the C&D letter as a dick move by any means. Business is business. The response, though, is very well played.
I get that brewing is generally made up of renegades and rebels and involving legalities is the furthest thing that people want to do, it's a necessary evil to protect your trademarks. If you don't defend them, you lose them and you don't get a refund for your troubles. While the retort letter may have been humorous, they are wrong and can definitely be sued. Oh well, sometimes doing the right thing is so uncool.
It seems that as soon as the aggressor is identified as being the bigger entity, they are deemed "the man" who must be protested and boycotted.
It seems that as soon as the aggressor is identified as being the bigger entity, they are deemed "the man" who must be protested and boycotted.
JJL
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Definitely not an on staff attorney. Typically, they'd have a preferred attorney in the TM field that they call when they need a TM issue resolved. My company is in the same general situation. We manufacture goods under a number of brand names that we sell in a number of countries. (Don't get me started on international TM.) We're not a huge company. The cost is nowhere near $500 an hour, but it is in the hundreds per hour. I'm going to guess that this was an initial search, not an ongoing search. Someone mentioned they won a GABF medal recently. That's why I'm guessing it was a TM attorney that handled the process. I agree that you wouldn't have the attorney do the ongoing search. Usually, you do have an internal employee handle this and then pass it off to the attorney for the C&D letters.
But, the one thing that I think most people are assuming is that Steelhead (allegedly) knows or even cares who Freetail is. I think as homebrewers/craft beer drinkers we get this romatic notion that craft breweries are some exclusive band of brothers. That they are all comrades in the fight to take down BMC. The reality is they are all businesses trying to make a profit and increase their market share. It's not being a jerk for defending your product. It's not being a jerk for not making a personal phone call to another brewery who is infringing on your TM to give them a "heads up" that you are sending a C&D letter. No other business would do this. There's no other segment of the business community where this would be expected.
JJL
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You would have no legal recourse to go to court... They are not brewing a beer by the same name... Its like their hoprocket or something i think... they can call a process anything they want... But they could have changed it on the website... it IS listed under beers... very confusing
I think blowing a hole in a Nintendo or game console is legal in 5 counties though.
They could sue for illegally using their mark, but there would be no point. They would have to show damages from the use of their mark, which would expensive, if not nearly impossible to do.
Firebat138
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exactly... but people are saying they could sue for writing the letter. Which I think is incorrect. Dont they say in the letter that they DONT make a beer using that name. Whether they are still using the TERM for whatever reason... I dont think they can be sued for being funny... But I have been wrong on many occasions.
stamandster
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JJL
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No, the language in the letter is largely irrelevant to the matter. Really the only part of the letter that anyone is going to care about from a legal perspective is the part where Freetail says that they'll agree to stop using the mark.
Actually, from the tone of the first few paragraphs of the letter, I thought Freetail was going to say no.
I don't think people are saying they could be sued for writing the letter. Rather, if they were the company having sent the C&D, and then they received that letter, that they would be so incensed that they could pursue further legal action. The problem is that in the letter, he clearly states that he agrees to the terms of the C&D, period. As long as he follows through on that, they have absolutely zero legal recourse.
When did I say that? (I'm ASSUMING you meant me since you initially responded with my quote)
You obviously mistook what I meant. I meant that if some jackass who I just sent a legally valid C&D letter to sent me that type of response, I would immediately take him to court for the initial infringement. Who in the world would think they could sue someone for sending a silly letter? Technically a person can sue another person for ANYTHING, but that is obviously not what I meant.
Yeah, they would have a ***** of a time proving harm. It's a beer produced and sold in Texas, and very possibly not available in any of the markets where their beers are sold. They could possibly argue a harm in that it would create confusion if they then tried to sell that beer in Texas, but most courts won't grant judgment on a potential, future harm like that.
gingerdawg
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Closer than close - infact right on the money.
Brewer Sued By Monster Energy Drink Asks America For Help - The Consumerist
What would you sue for, though? They've agreed (in writing) to stop using your trademark (silly dinosaurs or not). You aren't going to be able to prove damages for the trademark infringement. It would be a complete and utter waste of your time; best-case, you'd just get a judge to tell them to do what they'd already agreed to do.
I didn't see that they agreed to stop. Didn't read the whole letter because I honestly didn't think it was funny.
Please tell me you at least saw the dinosaur.
Yes, I saw it
Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor and all, but that letter just came across as childish to me. I'd never act like that professionally.
Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor and all, but that letter just came across as childish to me. I'd never act like that professionally.
Well, to be fair, he probably had been drinking....
fifelee
Well-Known Member
Yes, I saw it
Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor and all, but that letter just came across as childish to me. I'd never act like that professionally.
Dude let loose a bit.
This isn't some high end engineering firm where professionalism is necessary. This is beer. Most people brew so they can get away from legal/professional garbage.
g-love
Well-Known Member
Yes, I saw it
Don't get me wrong, I have a sense of humor and all, but that letter just came across as childish to me. I'd never act like that professionally.
Man Airborneguy..... I agree with most of the stuff you say on HBT (I lurk more than I post), but you're bumming me out on this one!
I think I covered the let loose part. One doesn't have to always let loose though. And the last part of your quote is pure fairy tale. Brewing is a business once you take it to the professional level. Try being all "cool and brotherly" with zoning boards, health agencies, the Fed, etc. I'm sure professional brewing can be very fun at times, but I've seen more that indicates that it is just like any other job/business out there.
Man Airborneguy..... I agree with most of the stuff you say on HBT (I lurk more than I post), but you're bumming me out on this one!
Thanks! But like I said, I'm no Debbie Downer, I just don't see this as something I can support without a lot more info. I'm all for retaliatory responses, and even proposed one at work today for a friend who's doctor is screwing him, but that was over-the-top, especially in a situation where there must have been some basis for the initial contact to begin with.
nukinfuts29
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Best. Letter. EVER.
