Lambic Brew Day - the Process and the Aftermath

[JulianB1]

Brewed a "lambic" (no spontaneous fermentation) yesterday (11/10/13) using a turbid mash following the Cantillon brew schedule as in Wild Brews, with some on-the-fly adjustments.

Start time (setting up equipment, etc.): 9:30am
Real Start time (actual brewing process): 10:00am
Finishing time (sealed fermenters): 7:00pm

Ingredients (10 gallon batch):

15# Belgian pilsener
8# flaked wheat
1# rice hulls (to prevent stuck sparges - didn't prevent all of them but probably helped)

Hot Liquor Tank (HLT)
Mash Tun (MT)
Kettle 1 (K1)
Kettle 2 (K2)
Kettle 3 (K3)

Note: I don't have a pot big enough to boil down to a 10 gallon batch, so I split it between two of them; hence the use of 3 kettles here rather than just 2.

Step 1:

Heat 2.5gal H2O in HLT to 158F, dough in to MT with all the grains.

Target Temp: 113F
Actual Temp: 118F
Rest: 15 min

Step 2:

Add 2.25gal H20 @ 212F to MT.

Target Temp: 126F
Actual Temp: 150F ( )
Rest: 15 min

Step 3:

Remove 1.75gal from MT, heat in K1.

Target Temp: 190F
Actual Temp: 190F
Hold

Step 4:

Add 2.5gal H2O @ 160F to MT (recipe says 212F but that's under the assumption you hit 126 in Step 2).

Target Temp: 149F
Actual Temp: 150F
Rest: 45 min

Step 5:

Remove 2.5gal from MT, add to K1 and heat.
Target Temp: 190F
Actual Temp: 190F
Hold

Step 6:

Add 2.5gal H2O at 172F (recipe calls for 1.75gal at 212, I adjusted for more volume and a better temp target).

Target Temp: 162F
Actual Temp: 158F
Rest: 30 min

Step 7:

Run off 2.25gal from MT to K2, heat.

Target Temp: just below boiling

Step 8: Add liquid from K1 to MT as needed (used all of it).

Target Temp: 172F
Actual Temp: 168F
Rest: 20 min

Step 9:

-Add remaining liquid (none) from K1 to K2
-Vorlauf from MT to K1
-Sparge with H2O @ 190F (approx 7 gal)

Step 10:

-Add half the liquid in K2 to K3.
-During sparge, periodically transfer liquid from K1 to K2 and K3 in equal amounts, to ensure roughly consistent wort in both kettles.

Target volume: 7gal/kettle
Actual volume: 7gal/kettle

Step 11:

Heat K2 and K3 to boiling, add 4oz debittered aged leaf hops (0% AA) per kettle at the start of boil.

Boil Time: 2 hours

Step 12:

Cool K2 and K3 and add yeast.

Yeast mixture (split between two buckets, one for each kettle) consisted of:

-Wyeast 3278 Belgian Lambic Blend
-WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix 1
-Dregs from Riserva 2010, Zuur 2009, Dissident 2012
-Slurry of trub from an American Wild Ale (multiple generations, all using Wyeast 3763 Roeselare)

Photos:

Setting up equipment:



Doughing in, the first time I ever took my shirt off while brewing due to working so hard:



2nd water addition, still thick as hell:



The key piece of equipment was a very deep (relative to its diameter) steel colander I purchased at IKEA on Friday. Pure luck to have come across it, and I can't imagine a better one for the job. Auto-syphoning also made this part of the process easier:











Now that's what I call cloudy wort:



End of the boil, removing the hop bag:



The finished product, sealed up. One of these will eventually become a kriek, while the other will be saved for blending with future batches (I plan to do this once a year) for a gueuze. And yes, I'm aware the date on the right-hand one is incorrect:



Celebrating being done, in style:



Thoughts:

-Overall I'm pleased with how things went, other than the massive temperature overshoot at Step 2. I'll need to adjust the temperatures next time to get closer on that one. There were some stuck sparges during the sparge process that had me swearing and kicking over empty buckets, but nothing catastrophic happened.

-This was a difficult, long, but rewarding and educating experience that ended up being a lot of fun. I'm hoping I can take the lessons learned and apply them to brewing other sour beers in the future.

-Rant: people who are not invited to brew days should not show up at them, and ESPECIALLY if they don't bring any beer themselves and snake pours from everybody else's bottles, while getting in the way and generally being nuisances. I did my best to keep this one unadvertised yet somehow moochers and still found out about it. Not letting that happen again. Thankfully we did a good job hiding the Brandy Hunahpu and Apple-Brandy Mexican Cake and only giving pours to the people who were invited and/or contributed.

-I encourage anyone interested in brewing sour beers to try this process at least once, for the experience if nothing else. Is it "worth" doing for the beer? We won't know for a long time, but as my friend John (an "intuitive" brewer if ever there was one, who abhors overly complicated approaches and technical precision) put it at the start of the boil, "that was a hell of a lot of work to get some sugar water".

 

[Adam Jackson]

Followed the same process here. Our brew dates are within a week. Want to do a 12oz unblended lambic trade in 12 months? Would be interesting.

 

[JulianB1]

Followed the same process here. Our brew dates are within a week. Want to do a 12oz unblended lambic trade in 12 months? Would be interesting.

Sure, wouldn't hurt to bottle up some of the non-kriek batch as unblended new lambic, then save about half of it for future blending purposes.

 

[jamescain]

I'm planning on doing a turbid mash brew day this winter when I have time off from work. I'll just need to get another burner and propane tank. I might figure out a way to split it and chill half and toss bottle dregs into it and the other half chill overnight and then toss bottle dregs for some "spontaneous" affects and a little extra biodiversity.

 

[Johnnyhitch11]

So sick. Thx for the pictures.

Have to give this a whirl one day.

One thing about the moochers...WHAT THE ****!?!
I hate people like that, give nothing and expect the world. Tisk tisk.

 

[StarRaptor1]

On my bucket list

 

[JulianB1]

My plan is to do this once a year, and keep making a 1 year fruited batch and a 1 year straight batch for both bottling off some unblended lambic, and for blending. Adam Jackson you may know this better than I, when blending batches of old and new lambic, is the standard thing to do to age them all separately and blend at the end (say, 3 years), or to add the fresh batch to the old batch after the 1 year (or whatever) fermentation is done? So for instance, would I add batch 2 to batch 1 after a year on batch 2, or keep them both separate until batch 3 is done and aged, then blend all three at that time?

 

[Snarf1]

Age separately, blend at the end. Also, you're not planning on keeping that beer in buckets for years are you? You'll end up with something that tastes like fish n chips if you do.

 

[ncaudle]

I'm thinking you keep them separate until you are ready to blend all batches together.

 

[beerinnv]

I have a similar plan to yours Julian. My first lambic (Steve Piatz Style) was brewed back in June. No cooling of the wort before going into primary, which was left "exposed" for a day and a half or so. Then primary fermentation with 005. Gave it a few weeks, then added Wyeast Lambic mix and dregs from a Cantillon classic. Just over 4 months since bugs went in (yes, in a bucket), and since I had to top off the airlock anyhow, I figured I'd try a half a sip and it was wonderful. Nice and pleasantly soured, brett funk and barnyard is not really too complex yet, but I anticipate that will come with time. Initially thought I'd let it sit on bugs for a year but am now considering 6 mos. I plan on having another ready to go on the yeast cake whenever I end up transferring. There will be Gueuze

 

[Johnnyhitch11]

My plan is to do this once a year, and keep making a 1 year fruited batch and a 1 year straight batch for both bottling off some unblended lambic, and for blending. Adam Jackson you may know this better than I, when blending batches of old and new lambic, is the standard thing to do to age them all separately and blend at the end (say, 3 years), or to add the fresh batch to the old batch after the 1 year (or whatever) fermentation is done? So for instance, would I add batch 2 to batch 1 after a year on batch 2, or keep them both separate until batch 3 is done and aged, then blend all three at that time?

This would be a "solera" fermentation where you rack off a portion of the lambic and replace with fresh unfermented wort.
I dont think you could call it a gueuze even thought there is a portion of 3year old lambic in the barrel (after 3 years).
Hmmm...Wonder if anyone else could answer this.

If you end up brewing this each year, Bottling half and fruiting half you can blend the bottled half after 3-4 years in a gueuze 50% 1 year 25% 2 year and 25% 3 year, if you store in oak barrels i would blend more towards the liking of 60% 1 year 30% 2 year and 10% 3 year.

 

[Beerontwowheels]

JulianB - 'Wild Brews' has a whole chapter dedicated to blending. Since you reference the book in the OP, I'm assuming you have a copy of it, but perhaps not.

You definitely keep them separate until ready to blend.

If I remember correctly, some breweries/blenders use only ~10% of the youngest gueuze to provide the sugars necessary to referement in the bottle. It's not necessarily a 33% lambic 1, 33% lambic 2 & 33% lambic 3 ratio.

I've got a turbid mash lambic I brewed in September that I plan on blending into a gueuze one day as well. Would be awesome to exchange with you and @adamjackson in a few years once all our gueuze's are bottled.

 

[JulianB1]

JulianB - 'Wild Brews' has a whole chapter dedicated to blending. Since you reference the book in the OP, I'm assuming you have a copy of it, but perhaps not.

You definitely keep them separate until ready to blend.

If I remember correctly, some breweries/blenders use only ~10% of the youngest gueuze to provide the sugars necessary to referement in the bottle. It's not necessarily a 33% lambic 1, 33% lambic 2 & 33% lambic 3 ratio.

I've got a turbid mash lambic I brewed in September that I plan on blending into a gueuze one day as well. Would be awesome to exchange with you and @adamjackson in a few years once all our gueuze's are bottled.

I do have Wild Brews, I just haven't gotten through the whole book yet. Thanks for the tip I'll be sure to read through that section. I'd love to do a lambic/gueuze exchange in the future.

 

[Adam Jackson]

Is @levifunk on TB? He's my favorite person to piss off with stupid lambic questions.

The two methods I know are referenced already
Solera method = Brew the same beer every year, Take some out of the vessel, add the new batch in so over time you're left with a 50+35+15% volume of what is basically a gueuze since all 3 years are blended and the yeast keep eating but it's not a gueuze at all

Other method is brew the same beer every year until the oldest lambic is at least 3 years old. Blend to taste but make sure you have at least 25+% of the "jonge lambic" which is lambic under 12 months (????could be 18mos) because you need the jonge lambic to make bottle conditioning happen. It could take up to a year to bottle condition a gueuze according to Jean @ Cantillon.

This is what I'm going through now. Brewed a Lambic in October (start of the cantillon brewing season as well) will brew another next October and then I'll brew two batches October of the 3rd year. So I'll have a lot of jonge lambic for blending with the old.

Sadly, this could totally **** up in which if any one of these batches is off, and tastes terrible, I'm out one full year of blending lambic. You can get away with a 3 and 2 year mix or a 1 and 3 year mix but A) it's not a gueuze and B) you'll likely have to add sugar / liquer to get it to ferment which will mean you can't call it "Oude Gueuze" technically. Like Lou Pepe Gueuze is not ouse gueuze because it's not a 3 year blend and has sugar in it. (that's what the marketing guy at Horal's told me)

someone please correct me on this because I'm still learning.

 

[Adam Jackson]

I'm all in on Lambic swapping! Even if they're just 12oz flat lambic.

 

[Snarf1]

Is @levifunk on TB? He's my favorite person to piss off with stupid lambic questions.

The two methods I know are referenced already
Solera method = Brew the same beer every year, Take some out of the vessel, add the new batch in so over time you're left with a 50+35+15% volume of what is basically a gueuze since all 3 years are blended and the yeast keep eating but it's not a gueuze at all

Other method is brew the same beer every year until the oldest lambic is at least 3 years old. Blend to taste but make sure you have at least 25+% of the "jonge lambic" which is lambic under 12 months (????could be 18mos) because you need the jonge lambic to make bottle conditioning happen. It could take up to a year to bottle condition a gueuze according to Jean @ Cantillon.

This is what I'm going through now. Brewed a Lambic in October (start of the cantillon brewing season as well) will brew another next October and then I'll brew two batches October of the 3rd year. So I'll have a lot of jonge lambic for blending with the old.

Sadly, this could totally **** up in which if any one of these batches is off, and tastes terrible, I'm out one full year of blending lambic. You can get away with a 3 and 2 year mix or a 1 and 3 year mix but A) it's not a gueuze and B) you'll likely have to add sugar / liquer to get it to ferment which will mean you can't call it "Oude Gueuze" technically. Like Lou Pepe Gueuze is not ouse gueuze because it's not a 3 year blend and has sugar in it. (that's what the marketing guy at Horal's told me)

someone please correct me on this because I'm still learning.

Technically it's not lambic or geuze in the first place….

 

[Adam Jackson]

Technically it's not lambic or geuze in the first place….

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mV1KBFX6W8gzmILyqr-EKNHhjjR-_UPi8bGWTIYzn0o/pub

If you're meeting those requirements, sure it is.

I confirmed with Horal's that 'new oak' is not a requirement but it should be cleaned in between uses to remove to the best of the brewery's ability any old microbes from the last fermentation.

 

[ncaudle]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mV1KBFX6W8gzmILyqr-EKNHhjjR-_UPi8bGWTIYzn0o/pub

If you're meeting those requirements, sure it is.

I think TNGabe is referring to the fact that the beer isnt being brewed in/near the Senne valley of Belgium... isn't this why Russian River refers to theirs as Sonambic instead of lambic?

 

[Snarf1]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mV1KBFX6W8gzmILyqr-EKNHhjjR-_UPi8bGWTIYzn0o/pub

If you're meeting those requirements, sure it is.

I confirmed with Horal's that 'new oak' is not a requirement but it should be cleaned in between uses to remove to the best of the brewery's ability any old microbes from the last fermentation.

I think TNGabe is referring to the fact that the beer isnt being brewed in/near the Senne valley of Belgium... isn't this why Russian River refers to theirs as Sonambic instead of lambic?

Actually referring to the fact that OPs beer is neither 'spontaneous' or in a barrel. Nothing wrong with that, I've got three batches going myself, it's just not lambic. I prefer to call it lamebic.

 

[Billy Brux]

Fermenting/aging sours in a bucket isn't an automatic vinegar bomb.

Bucket - I have yet to try aging a sour beer in one, but my friends who have do not seem to be getting objectionably acetic results as some people suggest (due to their high oxygen permeability). It may depend on things like temperature and specific microbe varieties. I also don't like the fact that you have to open them to look at the beer.

I use a bucket to ferment a flanders with good results. Six months in a bucket then racked to a carboy for 3-4 months. I want some acetic character for the style and get a little, but not much. I think if you use a bucket, the trick to minimizing vinegar is to not open the lid until you are ready to transfer it. I see no point in sampling green sour beer while it's in the primary. I just let it ferment and don't introduce oxygen by taking unnecessary samples.

 

[Billy Brux]

A lambic that doesn't have all the characteristics of a proper lambic is called a p-lambic or pseudo lambic by the BJCP.

Alternatively, you can not give a **** and call it a lambic to irritate beer style Nazis.

 

[JulianB1]

Actually referring to the fact that OPs beer is neither 'spontaneous' or in a barrel. Nothing wrong with that, I've got three batches going myself, it's just not lambic. I prefer to call it lamebic.

Per the suggestions of my friends and playing off a pun from my last name, I'm calling it lambuck.

 

[JulianB1]

Age separately, blend at the end. Also, you're not planning on keeping that beer in buckets for years are you? You'll end up with something that tastes like fish n chips if you do.

I'm planning on moving them to carboys after a few months, or at least the straight lambic. The kriek I may move from bucket to bucket when adding the cherries, I like how much easier it is to work with fruit using them.

 

[ncaudle]

The kriek I may move from bucket to bucket when adding the cherries, I like how much easier it is to work with fruit using them.

maybe time for one of these?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=big-mouth-11-20

 

[JulianB1]

maybe time for one of these?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=big-mouth-11-20

That's certainly intriguing, I may have to order one and try it out.

 

[beerinnv]

That's certainly intriguing, I may have to order one and try it out.

So the big concern with a 5 gallon bucket and oxidation is through the spigot? I don't see how this is much different lid wise than a bucket, but the lack of spigot gives it one less spot for air to enter. It may make some sense since the pellicle protects the "top" and not the beer that is near the spigot hole. Spigot hole hehe hehe hehe

 

[JulianB1]

So the big concern with a 5 gallon bucket and oxidation is through the spigot? I don't see how this is much different lid wise than a bucket, but the lack of spigot gives it one less spot for air to enter. It may make some sense since the pellicle protects the "top" and not the beer that is near the spigot hole. Spigot hole hehe hehe hehe

No, I think it has to do with the higher perforative properties of the plastic forming the bucket as compared to the glass forming the carboy.

 

[Adam Jackson]

maybe time for one of these?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=big-mouth-11-20

Whoa. I want 10 of those

 

[Billy Brux]

This is similar if you would rather use plastic.

MoreBeer is the source. Many sizes available. Not always in stock.

 

[beerinnv]

Whoa. I want 10 of those

No, I think it has to do with the higher perforative properties of the plastic forming the bucket as compared to the glass forming the carboy.

I think I may be convinced at this point too

 

[Adam Jackson]

I think I may be convinced at this point too

Pretty much, I keep 4 glass carboys for sours and 6 better bottles for everything else. I ferment high gravity or dry yeast beers in 6.5 gallon carboys and use 5 gallon ones for sours because they don't usually require a blow-off tube nor do I lose any yeast.

For some reason, I've only had vinegar on one of my sours..the first one. I was told buy someone the key is just don't mess with it. don't take the bung off every week and just let it sit for 6 months . You'll be better off and you're letting less oxygen in.

 

[ncaudle]

For some reason, I've only had vinegar on one of my sours..the first one. I was told buy someone the key is just don't mess with it. don't take the bung off every week and just let it sit for 6 months . You'll be better off and you're letting less oxygen in.

the only vinegar I've gotten is from my 1 attempt at using dregs only.

 

[JulianB1]

Generic sour beer question: how long do you guys primary your sours/wilds before transferring them to secondary? I've been all over the map on this one, some as long as 3 months, another as short as 1 month. Really I have no idea what I'm doing and am just sort of winging it, moving it if it smells/tastes "right".

 

[beerinnv]

Can't help much. Since I'm working in a bucket on the lambic, I've used it as primary and secondary. As I understand it, the lambic bugs will feed on the 005 (and/or their biproducts) eventually

 

[Beerontwowheels]

Generic sour beer question: how long do you guys primary your sours/wilds before transferring them to secondary? I've been all over the map on this one, some as long as 3 months, another as short as 1 month. Really I have no idea what I'm doing and am just sort of winging it, moving it if it smells/tastes "right".

<-- not an expert

I'm not planning on moving my lambic to secondary...ever. It will leave primary when I blend it into a gueuze or if I decide to bottle it as a 1-2 year lambic. The brett/bacteria feed off the dead yeast cells which, based on my understanding, is what allows the lambic to develop over time. Moving the lambic from primary to secondary takes away that food source and limits your beer from maturing into something even more complex and wonderful.

For non-lambic, I'm with you. I racked to secondary based on taste and smell. When the beer was closing in on the tartness I was looking for, I racked to secondary to add fruit (cherries and peaches, to date).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Thorpe]

<-- not an expert

I'm not planning on moving my lambic to secondary...ever. It will leave primary when I blend it into a gueuze or if I decide to bottle it as a 1-2 year lambic. The brett/bacteria feed off the dead yeast cells which, based on my understanding, is what allows the lambic to develop over time. Moving the lambic from primary to secondary takes away that food source and limits your beer from maturing into something even more complex and wonderful.

For non-lambic, I'm with you. I racked to secondary based on taste and smell. When the beer was closing in on the tartness I was looking for, I racked to secondary to add fruit (cherries and peaches, to date).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This. When I do lambic-inspired beer, I pitch whatever commercial pack or blend of dregs that I'm using into a carboy and it stays in that carboy until it's ready to bottle/blend.

 

[Adam Jackson]

There are loads of threads on HomeBrewTalk about secondary. I personally have never used secondaries unless it's a very well hopped beer. I transfer for dry hopping and then cold-crash before kegging. This gets out so many hop particles and just makes the beer look better and I don't get a stuck dip-tube in the keg

Most of the threads talking about extended primary aging people will chime in and say up to a year, you won't get any off flavors from primary. some people say longer is fine. Think of a glass carboy like a glass bottle. Lambic will do just fine sitting there for quite a while.