Lack of initial flavor

[BVilleggiante]

I've brewed twice now on my my MoreBeer all grain digital system. I'm brewing a German style Weiss beer and both times after bottle conditioning, I've been less then impressed with the initial impact of flavor I'm getting. The beer seems to have no flavor when it first hits my tongue, and a then a very light aftertaste. I don't think it's my recipe, and I'm wondering if it's perhaps my water. I've been using reverse osmosis water, and not adding any minerals to it. Could the lack of minerals be making my beer taste bland? Water chemistry is something I have never really research.

 

[PlainJay]

I would not recommend adjusting water (other than filtering to remove chlorine) until you have fully researched it. I would also not recommend using RO water without adding at least some Calcium back to the mash. From what I understand, most CA water is very suitable for brewing as is. This is a topic for much research, commentary, and opinion well beyond this post.

Given your initial issue of lack of flavor, I would look beyond the water. What is your grain bill and what yeast are you using? I find a grain bill for a typical hefeweizen (2-row or pils and wheat malt) using a neutral yeast (cal ale, or 1056) to be somewhat flavorless. However, given a simple grain bill, the proper yeast and fermentation temperature, magic happens.

 

[ChrisJPassarelli]

I'd be curious to see the recipe, too.

Efficiency/OG is doing ok, right? If you're not getting good extraction that would be the easiest explanation.

 

[KuntzBrewing]

Plain RO water lacks EVERY SINGLE mineral that is needed for brewing, that could be a big issue if you don't add minerals, also german weizen (weiss) beers usually have a distinct yeast used and that yeast develops intentional "off" flavors that are helped by stressing yeast, so low O2 or low pitch amoung would help, when I brew german beers I always always always use german grain(weyermann) and german hops (mostly noble).

For more about the water do some R&D on water profiles for german/belgian weiss beers and download an excel spreadsheet to help, also use youtube as a major help for this.
I hope this helps lead you in the right direction

 

[BVilleggiante]

Here is my grain bill for a 10 gallon batch:

10 lbs 12.2 oz Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 60.0 %
14.4 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 5.0 %
14.4 oz Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 4 5.0 %
1 lbs 12.7 oz Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 3 10.0 %
14.4 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 6 5.0 %
2 lbs 11.1 oz Brewers Malt 6-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) Grain 2 15.0 %
0.75 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 6.3 IBUs
0.25 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 1.6 IBUs
0.75 oz Opal [6.30 %] - Aroma Steep 10.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg
Bavarian Wheat Yeast (Wyeast Labs #3056)

I've done some reading since writing the initial post and I think my lack of flavor is due to my beer still being green. Below I will post what I've been doing with regards to fermentation and bottling, and after researching, what I will try doing the next time.

What I've been doing:

1) Primary fermenting at 68 degree's for roughly five days (time it takes for fermentation to complete)
2) Bottle and condition for three weeks at 66 degree's.
3) Put in fridge and drink.

Here is what I'm going to try doing in my next batch:

1) Fermenting at 68 degree's for roughly five days (time it takes for fermentation to complete)
2) Drop the temperature to 39 degrees for roughly five days while beer is still in carboy's
3) Bottle and condition the beer for roughly five days at 68 degree's or until the CO2 has built up to the desired level.
4) Continue to bottle condition the beer at 39 degrees for another 2-6 weeks depending on the beer.

Any thoughts on what I have been doing compared to what I will be doing? My beer right now tastes a lot like wort, and so I think the reason for my lake of initial flavor is that I'm rushing the process after I've brewed and I'm not allowing my beer to mature.

 

[Yooper]

A couple of things I'd do right away differently. One, I'd go ahead and add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride to your mash water. That should help, but if you want to get "into" water chemistry, take a look at our brewing science forum and the water chemistry primer.

Secondly, don't cold condition the beer so quickly. Keep it at the optimum fermentation temperature until fermentation is finished, then wait about three days. You can even raise the temperature a couple of degrees at the tail end of fermentation to make sure any diacetyl is cleaned up and the yeast fully attenuates.

Remember that beer conditions much faster at room temperature, so wait until the beer tastes right before cold crashing. This may be 14+ days or so. Beer will age very very slowly at cold temperatures, although the colder temperatures encourage the beer to clear so you can cold crash at the end. THEN you can bottle and bottle condition the beer. But make sure you keep the beer at optimum fermentation temperatures for 10-14 days initially.

 

[BVilleggiante]

Great feedback! I've made notes and will follow your advice. Water chemistry is something I'll be beginning my research on.

So, if I understand you right you're saying:

After fermentation is complete, have the beer continue to sit in the carboys at fermentation temperature for approx. another 10-14 days to allow for diacetyl clean up. Then, bottle condition as I've stated above.

A couple of things I'd do right away differently. One, I'd go ahead and add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride to your mash water. That should help, but if you want to get "into" water chemistry, take a look at our brewing science forum and the water chemistry primer.

Secondly, don't cold condition the beer so quickly. Keep it at the optimum fermentation temperature until fermentation is finished, then wait about three days. You can even raise the temperature a couple of degrees at the tail end of fermentation to make sure any diacetyl is cleaned up and the yeast fully attenuates.

Remember that beer conditions much faster at room temperature, so wait until the beer tastes right before cold crashing. This may be 14+ days or so. Beer will age very very slowly at cold temperatures, although the colder temperatures encourage the beer to clear so you can cold crash at the end. THEN you can bottle and bottle condition the beer. But make sure you keep the beer at optimum fermentation temperatures for 10-14 days initially.

 

[PlainJay]

Looks like you have gotten a lot of great feedback. So the following is in addition to rather than in replace of....

I would check into your strain of yeast. It appears that 3056 (which is a mix of neutral ale yeast and a true weizen yeast) is known for little flavor and lack of attenuation. I don't have experience with that strain, but I do 3068 and it Will give you clove and banana flavor which can be accentuated with a stressful / low temp at the beginning of fermentation (or more accurate growth phase). Do a search for hefeweizen or weizen clove or phenolic flavor and many have recommended fermentation profiles on this forum.

Since 3056 has somewhat of a reputation for under attenuating, what was your final gravity prior to bottling?

 

[corncob]

But make sure you keep the beer at optimum fermentation temperatures for 10-14 days initially.

I don't know much about brewing, and I don't know a thing at all about weiss beers, but this is not hard and fast. There is a big thread around here about yeast-derived flavors in English ales that seems to contra-indicate one day longer than necessary on the yeast. I know that my English beers have all lacked flavor when left on the yeast too long, compared to when crashed as soon as the green apple and rancid butter fades. I find myself tasting every batch every other day or so right at the end--of course for me that is usually 6-12 days, so we may be saying the same thing in the end. I have no idea how the weiss yeast works.

 

[BVilleggiante]

Final gravity for 3056 was 1.008.

Looks like you have gotten a lot of great feedback. So the following is in addition to rather than in replace of....

I would check into your strain of yeast. It appears that 3056 (which is a mix of neutral ale yeast and a true weizen yeast) is known for little flavor and lack of attenuation. I don't have experience with that strain, but I do 3068 and it Will give you clove and banana flavor which can be accentuated with a stressful / low temp at the beginning of fermentation (or more accurate growth phase). Do a search for hefeweizen or weizen clove or phenolic flavor and many have recommended fermentation profiles on this forum.

Since 3056 has somewhat of a reputation for under attenuating, what was your final gravity prior to bottling?

 

[PlainJay]

Well, I don't know your OG, but that should be close enough to say it was fully attenuated. My $0.02 is to change yeast and fermentation temperature / profile. With all the info above, third time should be a charm.

Good stuff here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/weizen-yeast-wy3068-vs-wlp300-vs-wlp320-vs-wlp380-126335/

 

[BVilleggiante]

I'm going to give 3068 a try. Think I'm going to start at 59 degrees and try and end at 62 with a three day rest after fermentation has stopped at 71 degrees. Not sure if any flavors will be added at 71 degrees after fermentation has ceased, but the plan is to try and remove any off flavors during that three days.

You said something interesting in a previous post that I was hoping you could expand on. You had mentioned that "stressing the yeast" at a lower temperature can help with flavor. Can you please explain this?

Cheers!

Well, I don't know your OG, but that should be close enough to say it was fully attenuated. My $0.02 is to change yeast and fermentation temperature / profile. With all the info above, third time should be a charm.

Good stuff here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/weizen-yeast-wy3068-vs-wlp300-vs-wlp320-vs-wlp380-126335/

 

[PlainJay]

I think you are doing what I suggested with the lower temp fermentation. After researching myself, I misspoke a little. Generally, yeast grow initially after the pitch and it is often during this growth phase that many of the "off flavors" are developed when conditions are imperfect rather than during the actual fermentation phase. These "off flavors" are actually desired in this beer. Esters = banana flavor and phenolics = clove flavor. So, I commented about stressing the yeast with a lower temperature. A lower temperature with an adequate pitch will give more clove, yet "stressing" via underpitching yields more banana. see wyeasts site for 3068: Wyeast Laboratories. Weihenstephan Weizen

Hope this helps, Jay

 

[Clementine]

I had a similar problem, with a American Pale Ale that I made. It was the first beer I made since moving here to PA. I noticed the lack of favor on the first sip and after that the bitterness and hops flavor took over and the only other way I could analyze the beer was to let it warm up and go flat. I don't know much about water chemistry so I was not thinking along those lines. Two things made me think the flat spot in the flavor profile was due to the sugar content of my beer. My FG and where I noticed the lack of flavor, it seemed as if the tip of my tongue had lost it taste, I think from biology classes in high school that the sweet taste receptors are on the front of your tongue so I concluded my problem was a lack of sugar. I mashed higher, 162, this time (Cascadian Dark Ale) and it is ending up quite thick, fermentation is just now slowing down and it is currently at 1018. The high levels of sugar are balanced out by my love of lots of hops so it looks like it is going to be a good beer, but we will see if it fixed my flavor flat spot. Hope this helps your beer analysis.

Clem