Kettle Souring After Boil with Hops

[BitterSweetBrews]

First a bunch of background.

Today a local brewery, Nebraska Brewing Company, had a View the Brew wort making event. For 3-4 hours (and $15) we could watch them make a batch of wort from mash through the boil. They also had some great presentations of what they do on a commercial scale. When the brew day was finished, we got to take away 5 gallons of the finished wort. They also sold, for the same $15, 5 gallons to people who didn't want to watch the brewing process (which was pretty cool). They brewed 20 barrels of Red Ale.

In a couple months there will be a tasting event and contest of the brews made from the wort. Some people will just pitch yeast, others will get more creative, like me.

I want to sour my wort and make it into a Flanders Red or something close. I am kettle souring it with some FAGE yogurt for the lacto-bacillis, I mixed a couple tablespoons yogurt with a couple cups of wort and added it to it in my boil kettle (no starter). The starting gravity is 1.067 and I measured the ph at 4.9/5.0. When it has soured I will rais the temp to kill the lacto, chill it and pitch a pack either S-04 or Belle Saison yeast.

Since I brew electric, keeping the temp at 110 will not be a problem. Since I don't want the boil kettle element burning/killing the bacteria I am using my immersion chiller as an immersion heater. I am keeping the water in my HLT at 113 degrees. I am using the sensor in my boil kettle, set at 110 degrees, to turn on a pump to recirculate HLT water through the immersion coil which is immersed in the wort.

So here is my question. The wort was hopped with about .5oz, 13% Simcoe per 5 gallons at 30 minutes. So it has an estimated IBUs at around 25. Hops can inhibit the growth of lacto-bacillus. How long is it going to take for the wort to sour before I can raise the temp to kill the bacteria.

Any comments or ideas? Will it sour? Which yeast should I use?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry, it's not going to sour.

.... The only way to make it sour in that timeframe would be to add straight lactic acid to it. I generally don't recommend this and haven't tried it myself.
Lactic acid yeast aren't really available commercially yet, unfortunately.

You can still make a nice funky beer without it being sour though.
Use Brett for primary. TYB Brett blends have good reviews, or Wyeast's B. lambicus would be a good choice in my opinion.
Making a Brett starter for a week beforehand would have been better, but this might still work.
You could co-pitch Sacc with the Brett too if you want. WLP 644 Sacc Trois is nice, or even Wyeast's 1084 Irish Ale would give nice flavor. There are plenty of yeast options depending on your goal.

If the Brett is struggling to reach a stable gravity in about 4-5 weeks, you can add glucoamylase, which should help get it low enough to bottle within a week.

Hope this helps

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Sorry, it's not going to sour.

.... The only way to make it sour in that timeframe would be to add straight lactic acid to it. I generally don't recommend this and haven't tried it myself.
Lactic acid yeast aren't really available commercially yet, unfortunately.

You can still make a nice funky beer without it being sour though.
Use Brett for primary. TYB Brett blends have good reviews, or Wyeast's B. lambicus would be a good choice in my opinion.
Making a Brett starter for a week beforehand would have been better, but this might still work.
You could co-pitch Sacc with the Brett too if you want. WLP 644 Sacc Trois is nice, or even Wyeast's 1084 Irish Ale would give nice flavor. There are plenty of yeast options depending on your goal.

If the Brett is struggling to reach a stable gravity in about 4-5 weeks, you can add glucoamylase, which should help get it low enough to bottle within a week.

Hope this helps

Could you please expand on what you mean when you say "it won't sour in that timeframe". I haven't set a timeframe for the kettle souring. I actually expected it to probably take 4 or 5 days or more. Are you implying that that length of time could inject other issues? Spoilage?

I checked and PH has gone from 4.9/5.0 to 4.8 overnight.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm saying it'll take at least several months to sour, AND you'll need more aggressive bacteria than the species in yogurt.
It's simply not possible to kettle sour that wort.

If you leave it in the kettle, soon there will be a krausen and you'll have a wild hot fermented beer.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Could you please expand on what you mean when you say "it won't sour in that timeframe".

The main issue is the 25 IBU. I can't speak to other strains, as i haven't actively solo pitched anything other than plantarum, but plantarum doesn't produce lactic acid in an environment much higher than 5 IBU, regardless of temp or cell count. If you performed fermentation with Brett only, aside from being funky instead of tangy/acidic, it'll complete more along the timeframe of sacc, but brett as a secondary option will take at least a few months to develop the funky profile. It won't be in the ballpark of a flanders red, but if you used only brett, it could be done in time for your event.

 

[isomerization]

He has two months, perhaps you could buy a 6 pack or two of Jolly Pumpkin and try and copitch with Sacc/Brett (as suggested above).

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

I have been watching the PH and it is slowly, very slowly going down. This morning it was at 4.4, down from the original 5.0ish (it fluctuated between 4.9 and 5.0 when I first tested the wort). I do have the kettle sealed up with plastic wrap to keep out other organisms.

Yesterday, I created an LDME, 1 quart lacto starter with a large tablespoon of yogurt. I have been holding it at 110 and shaking it periodically since I can't stir-plate it on the heating element. I am going to pitch it into the wort either tonight or tomorrow to see if I can augment what is in there and possibly overcome the IBUs. I know it is a long shot, but I don't really have anything to lose at this early stage.

I can taste a slight difference in bite through the sweet. I am not sure tasting is a good idea at this point, because of the dairy and other organisms that might be present until I re-boil. But, I did it anyway.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

He has two months, perhaps you could buy a 6 pack or two of Jolly Pumpkin and try and copitch with Sacc/Brett (as suggested above).

I do have some lacto/brett soured beers that are a couple years out from bottling. I wonder if the bacteria is still present.

I always wonder about building up from dregs. I have harvested and used some Rogue Pacman yeast from a Santa Stout a few years ago with success, but I really wonder how old the beer can be before it is too old to use.

 

[SanPancho]

It is possible. Pedio will give you sour. But itll take weeks at that level of ibus. Might get ropy. Adding brett will help with that. But you could be looking at a 2-6 month process here.

The other option is to mimic the grain bill and sour another batch as low as possible. 3.3 or 3.2. Then blend. You’ll wind up around 3.5 to 3.7. Tart as opposed to sour likely, but at this point you ,do what you can.

 

[brownni5]

Taking pH readings at this point really isn't going to tell you much. Remember that fermented beer, say a pale ale, is going to finish with a pH around 4 or a little higher.