Keg tool

[Poobah58]

They like you! They really, really like you!

 

[nbspindel]

i like your tool.

pretty ingenious. I'll never do that cause i don't weld and wasnt satisfied with the last weld i had done, so it's all weldless. However, if i were a weldor (yes, that's proper subjunctive, too), then i would definitely use this to attempt to make mine as pretty as yours. Great work!

 

[GreenMonti]

Curious though. Why'd you decide to give it up after holding out?

I never wanted too keep it from anyone. (ask Yuri Rage) I always give up/out my secretes. It has been eating at me hard, and I have been thinking of posting it up for a couple of weeks now. I received a PM asking about it ,and I figured that wasn't just by chance.

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[pickles]

Very clever tool!

 

[conpewter]

Nice, I think this would be great for those that don't weld but can silver solder as well.

 

[Cliff897]

As most know that when working with stainless steel you must be very carefull about what comes in contact with the stainless. Wire brushes are probly the biggest example of this.

The Movie Silverado: Image of the Kevin Costner's character, condemned to hang, in the jail cell when Robin Williams' character has just been also locked up and turns to the bars saying "You are making a big mistake." And Costner slaps his knee and exclaims: "THAT'S WHAT I TOLD 'EM~!!"

It's my favorite line of the movie.

It goes for every thing. If a carbon source gets on the surface and the stainless gets to its magic temp of 800-1600 degrees, then it will become what is known as sensitized.

Id.

The only real fix is to do a solution heat treat on the material to get it back to where it once was.

Which solution is comprised of annealing the metal.
I've always done this by heating it up again and cooling it very slowly.
I don't know what the temp', soak, and ramp down are.
Lots of guys I've known just use some abrasive in the discoloration to get rid of it.

So, we must think about all things that come in contact with the stainless. Drilling we are pretty much screwed on.

Well not entirely screwed, just mostly screwed (forgive me Miracle Max). You can always take a small grinder or a couple sheets of abrasive to the holes and clean them up.

Every thing else we can controll. When hammering on stainless it is best to use a chunk of stainless. Iron will embed in the surface and that iron will rust.

apply quote from Costner.

Yes I know I typed "weldor". It is a clairification in text. Here is the first bit from wikipedia.
A welder (also weldor, which term distinguishes the tradesman from the equipment used to make welds) is a tradesman who specialises in welding materials together.

And tradesman ( or person for the PC gang) is the dead on exact term.
I am persnickety about the use of words like trade, vocation, avocation and profession. I sure as hell don't want some professional monkeying around with my car's front end and then sending me out on the highway at 60 MPH. I want a tradesman~!! Preferably a Journeyman.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

If you were holding out for patentability reasons, you still have your inventive rights even though it is disclosed. Briefly, you have one year (exactly) from the date of first public disclosure or offer for sale to file your invention with the U.S. Patent Office. Just because you told people doesn't mean you gave up your rights.

If you want to sell the idea to a company or shop, you can still do so as the inventor of the idea with patentable rights.

That said, who knows if this process is actually new... not me.

 

[babalu87]

Unless its for a fermenter the weld really doesnt much matter as long as it doesnt leak.
Sure it looks nice.................

Boiling wort kills germs.

 

[GreenMonti]

Boerderij_Kabouter
No I never had any thoughts of a patent. I am not the one who thought of the process of doing pull outs. I am just doing it in a way that works for us and doesn't require a machine.


babalu87
So, if you had your choice to have a weld done the normal way or this way which would you choose? The other way the couplings are normally welded on have the same issue with the sanitary status. Not to mention the threads and what not. It was never about sanitary. It is about the ease of welding. "IF" the weldor didn't back gas this type of weld meant, there would be no sugaring on the backside if he used little heat, ie...a small fusion weld. I don't recommend that though cause how would you scrub out the rust issue?

 

[GreenMonti]

Which solution is comprised of annealing the metal.
I've always done this by heating it up again and cooling it very slowly.
I don't know what the temp', soak, and ramp down are.
Lots of guys I've known just use some abrasive in the discoloration to get rid of it.

Annealing of austenitic stainless steel is occasionally called quench annealing because the metal must be cooled rapidly, usually by water quenching, to prevent sensitization. Removing surface discoloration by grinding doesn't do anything for the grain structure of the material.

Well not entirely screwed, just mostly screwed (forgive me Miracle Max). You can always take a small grinder or a couple sheets of abrasive to the holes and clean them up.

I was unaware of the fact that you can see carbon steel on the surface?? But yes, that would be one measure to help protect against the issue.

 

[babalu87]

Dude
Welding is welding

Sanitary doesnt matter in a boil kettle as its below the surface of the wort and it already sterilized by 214 degree wort.

FWIW welding like this has been around a LONG LONG time

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Dude
Welding is welding

Sanitary doesnt matter in a boil kettle as its below the surface of the wort and it already sterilized by 214 degree wort.

FWIW welding like this has been around a LONG LONG time

You can boil a turd, but keep it away from my beer .
Given the option, I'd take a sanitary weld every time.
The problem with stainless and carbon steel contamination is RUST. Can't boil it away, but the acid in your wort sure will dissolve it into your beer.

 

[GreenMonti]

Dude
Welding is welding

Sanitary doesnt matter in a boil kettle as its below the surface of the wort and it already sterilized by 214 degree wort.

FWIW welding like this has been around a LONG LONG time

I am well aware. Please read what is/has been posted.

 

[Blane]

During my last order from McMaster Carr a few weeks ago I did a little research and came up with my version of the keg tool. It certainly isn't as elegant or sophisticated as greenmonty's but it did get the job done. The two main ingredients are a

3/4" to 1/2" stainless steel butt-weld pipe fitting:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#45605k711/=61bdmv

1" stainless socket weld low pressure coupling:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#4335t64/=61be9j

The 3/4" to 1/2" reducer fits perfectly inside of the 1"coupling and the OD of the reducer is the same as a 1/2" couple. I used a 4" 5/8" bolt to connect it all together.

I used a Greenlee 7/8" inch hole punch and unlike greenmonty's, once I pulled the reducer through, I had to reload and pull the coupling through. I tested on a keg top I cut out. Here are the results. When I get brave enough I'm going to modify my HLT with a HERMS coil using this tool. I'm not sure I'm ready to TIG it myself though.

 

[klyph]

During my last order from McMaster Carr a few weeks ago I did a little research and came up with my version of the keg tool. It certainly isn't as elegant or sophisticated as greenmonty's but it did get the job done. The two main ingredients are a

3/4" to 1/2" stainless steel butt-weld pipe fitting:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#45605k711/=61bdmv

1" stainless socket weld low pressure coupling:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#4335t64/=61be9j

The 3/4" to 1/2" reducer fits perfectly inside of the 1"coupling and the OD of the reducer is the same as a 1/2" couple. I used a 4" 5/8" bolt to connect it all together.

I used a Greenlee 7/8" inch hole punch and unlike greenmonty's, once I pulled the reducer through, I had to reload and pull the coupling through. I tested on a keg top I cut out. Here are the results. When I get brave enough I'm going to modify my HLT with a HERMS coil using this tool. I'm not sure I'm ready to TIG it myself though.

Excellent! Thanks for posting the part numbers, this looks to be the perfect way to convert weldless holes into welded fittings.

 

[jfkriege]

How much is everyone undersizing the hole as compared to the fitting being welded into the keg?

 

[JBStith]

Question...
If you wanted to use this method for pulling a hole for a 1" coupling (coupling is for a water heater element), what size hole and pull through should you use?

 

[klyph]

How much is everyone undersizing the hole as compared to the fitting being welded into the keg?

My weldless fittings are 7/8" holes, exactly like Blane stated he uses for this method.

 

[GreenMonti]

Question...
If you wanted to use this method for pulling a hole for a 1" coupling (coupling is for a water heater element), what size hole and pull through should you use?

As mentioned by the others a 7/8" hole is what you want for the 1/2" couplings. I haven't made one for the 1" coupling yet but, I would build mine and drill a hole the size of the pipe just like on the 1/2" stuff. Not sure what that is off hand.

Blane,
That is a great looking tool. Very well done. Don't be afraid to weld it. Just a simple fusion weld is all that is needed I just like to add filler for the look. Take your time, you will see that doing it this way is extremely easy to weld up.

 

[GreenMonti]

Which solution is comprised of annealing the metal.
I've always done this by heating it up again and cooling it very slowly.
I don't know what the temp', soak, and ramp down are.
Lots of guys I've known just use some abrasive in the discoloration to get rid of it.

I was thinking about this today. I didn't answer your question quite right yesterday. (I was tired and pissy) Solution heat treating has nothing to do with a solution at all. It is in reference to the "solution" of the material. When welding or heating is done to SS it changes the grain structure. Solution heat treating is done by placing the material in an oven with a gas environment to purge out all the air. Then heat is applied to get things up to around 1800 degrees for a set period of time. It is then force cooled by gas so things remain in an O2 free environment. The grain structure will then be back to normal.

Now having said all that, there are the grade L SS's and the higher grade 300 series SS, like 321 or 347 that are pretty much immune to sensitization. However, if you place the carbon source there, or weld on a standard 304 fitting then your changing the weld area.

If you are just heating up the material and not keeping things in a purged environment then you are just making the heat affected zone bigger then when it was welded. Again, just removing the discoloration isn't changing the grain structure back to normal if that is what is needed of the part.

 

[Blane]

As mentioned by the others a 7/8" hole is what you want for the 1/2" couplings. I haven't made one for the 1" coupling yet but, I would build mine and drill a hole the size of the pipe just like on the 1/2" stuff. Not sure what that is off hand.

Blane,
That is a great looking tool. Very well done. Don't be afraid to weld it. Just a simple fusion weld is all that is needed I just like to add filler for the look. Take your time, you will see that doing it this way is extremely easy to weld up.

Since I only had one day of TIG before I had to leave the class, would you wash from the thicker coupling to the thinner keg material or weave over the seam?

 

[GreenMonti]

Since I only had one day of TIG before I had to leave the class, would you wash from the thicker coupling to the thinner keg material or weave over the seam?

When I just fuse them I just run the torch right at the joint. Maybe a little bit biased to the coupling. No weaving IMO. Maybe a little back and forth movement if you would like to give the bead a little style. You don't need a lot of power either. 50-70 amps should be all that is needed. I have to weld one up tomorrow for a testing tank I need. I don't plan on using any filler or to purge it out. Just a down and dirty weld to get me through. I will try and video the weld for you. Shouldn't be too hard too do. I will post tomorrow if I succeed or fail.

Cheers.

 

[Blane]

When I just fuse them I just run the torch right at the joint. Maybe a little bit biased to the coupling. No weaving IMO. Maybe a little back and forth movement if you would like to give the bead a little style. You don't need a lot of power either. 50-70 amps should be all that is needed. I have to weld one up tomorrow for a testing tank I need. I don't plan on using any filler or to purge it out. Just a down and dirty weld to get me through. I will try and video the weld for you. Shouldn't be too hard too do. I will post tomorrow if I succeed or fail.

Cheers.

I'm a visual kind of guy. That would be great to watch if you could make it happen. Thanks.

 

[GreenMonti]

I'm a visual kind of guy. That would be great to watch if you could make it happen. Thanks.

Ok Blane,

I am not a camera guy by any means. I did the best I could (alone) at getting a video. I would not call it a success. You will however get an idea of what I meant by a back and forth motion to give the bead some style. Not just a fusion weld or as I call them, slug tracks.

Here is the video. Its very short but you should get the idea of the movement and how tight the motion is.
http://s385.photobucket.com/albums/oo300/pentair/?action=view&current=P1010051-3.flv

 

[GreenMonti]

Here is a couple pics of the placement since the video didn't come out like I wanted.

Another view.

Here is what the fusion that I did looks like.

 

[Blane]

Ok Blane,

I am not a camera guy by any means. I did the best I could (alone) at getting a video. I would not call it a success. You will however get an idea of what I meant by a back and forth motion to give the bead some style. Not just a fusion weld or as I call them, slug tracks.

Here is the video. Its very short but you should get the idea of the movement and how tight the motion is.

That's a great shot. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. I see what you mean about staying just above the seam. How far around the coupling would you go before you stopped and let it cool down a bit so as not to blow a hole in the keg?

 

[GreenMonti]

That's a great shot. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. I see what you mean about staying just above the seam. How far around the coupling would you go before you stopped and let it cool down a bit so as not to blow a hole in the keg?

That's one of the beauties of doing it this way. You have to try extremely hard to blow a hole in the keg material. Only go as far as your comfortable going in one shot. When you start again just tie into the stop. I was running my machine on the low setting. I have three settings on my old miller. The low setting tops out at 55 Amps I believe, and I was running it full out. I like to use 1/16" tungsten and my cups are the large ones. That's a #12 cup and gas lens.

 

[ElDuderino]

I hope I don't get beaten back into the stone age for asking this, but what exactly do you mean when you say 'fusion weld'? I did a search and most of what I found was inconclusive (for me)... Are you just melting the existing metal together without adding filler rod? Are you using gas? Could this be done with a different (cheaper) set-up?

 

[bendavanza]

Fusion means no filler rod, and yes he is using shielding gas, TIG is tungsten inert gas, and that looks damn fine. I need to get a TIG and start learning.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

First, those welds are wow!
Couple of questions:
In the last post, you didn't purge. I am assuming that purging is a better practice, or is it not needed because of the tight fit? Could flux be used to prevent sugaring ?


The material - Ampco xx. I am assuming this needs to be harder than the SS?


Thanks, and if you decide to make these, I'd be on that list.

 

[GreenMonti]

First, those welds are wow!
Couple of questions:
In the last post, you didn't purge. I am assuming that purging is a better practice, or is it not needed because of the tight fit? Could flux be used to prevent sugaring ?


The material - Ampco xx. I am assuming this needs to be harder than the SS?


Thanks, and if you decide to make these, I'd be on that list.

No I didn't bother to back purge because that fitting is just for a test tank I need right now. Once I am done with the testing the keg/tank is going to the scrap yard, so I wasn't going to waste the time or gas. Back purging is most defiantly recommended. They say the flux works, though I have no personal experience with it.

The Ampco 20 that I used is defiantly more hard then the stainless. I mentioned not going any higher up like 25 due to the hardness of it. It starts getting hard to machine.

 

[JMOSBAUG]

I am completely impressed with this GreenMonti. Please forgive me if I am showing my lack of experience in this area, but do you think this would still work with the silver soldering method? I dont have the tools, experience or money to get this done with a weldor.

It seems to have been mentioned in this thread, but I didnt see a go ahead with the soldering.

thanks again for sharing!

 

[klyph]

Once I am done with the testing the keg/tank is going to the scrap yard

Let me be the first to offer to pay the shipping cost for you to send me that "test keg".

 

[RonRock]

I have been unable to find a source for Ampco 20. Anybody have a place I can buy a piece?

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

RonRock - give me a couple of days to make sure the source comes through.

I have found it, but you are probably like me and don't quite need 6'

 

[RonRock]

Group buy on a piece of Brass.

 

[GreenMonti]

I am completely impressed with this GreenMonti. Please forgive me if I am showing my lack of experience in this area, but do you think this would still work with the silver soldering method? I dont have the tools, experience or money to get this done with a weldor.

It seems to have been mentioned in this thread, but I didnt see a go ahead with the soldering.

thanks again for sharing!

I am not really sure to be honest. I think over time a solder joint would give way due to the lack of surface area. It was mentioned in the "Soldering Stainless" thread not too long ago. IIRC someone mentioned filling in the depression with solder. Then doing the outside or vise versa. I think some one needs to try and see how long it would last. I figure worst case you'll be out a coupling and some time to clean up the joint, to prep it for welding.


Edit: Here it the tool that Hardtack made. He posted this in the soldering stainless thread. I hope this link goes to page 8 for you.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/soldering-stainless-steel-155782/index8.html

Let me be the first to offer to pay the shipping cost for you to send me that "test keg".

Trust me you don't want it.

 

[GreenMonti]

Just thought I would share this. I have used my tool to do 1/4" coupling all the way up to the 1/2" is was made to do. Just drill a smaller hole and pull it a little at a time until you get a snug fit. I pull the tool through till I have to hit the smaller coupling with a rubber mallet to get it in the hole. If the cone is made right you can use it to pull all those fittings. I used a 1/2" coupling as a dummy to make sure it all went through correctly. (So the tool would still assemble right)

I also have use the cone to pull copper for making my own solder joints. This is my last condenser I made for my kettle. I soldered the joints from the inside so it would be full in the depression side and wick its own way through the joint. Enjoy.

 

[RonRock]

As usual beautiful work.